When you import your toon from armory, everything is fine, but do adjust the crafting professions on the far right side. Skinning and Enchanting in your case. I won't suggest going bs/jc, but min/max those are the best.
I really appreicate your post.
You said BS and JC would be better for me to max my dps. Well I have so many enchants, I really cant see dropping that at this point. I had enchanting since BC which I was a tank instead of DPS. I am only missing like 30 enchants total in the game, having around 225 enchants total.
So I was wondering, if I dropped skinning, which would be better for me to pick up? JC or BS?
Also I just updated my pants to t9 as it was my only t8 that was 10 man. But now wondering with the new meta you suggested, which is the best blue gems for me to get.
But back to my orignal question really. Should I be tryying to be getting closer to the armor pen cap vs going to strength, even if the strength SEP is higher atm. Main reason why I ask is I have seen warriors with no so hot gear do better dps then me and he claims its cause he gemmed armor pen. Tho I did notice he does have grim toll. I do realize that maybe I didnt make the best of gear choices in the past but I am tryying to get that corrected now.
Last edited by Twistedkiller : 10/27/09 at 3:35 AM.
You said BS and JC would be better for me to max my dps. Well I have so many enchants, I really cant see dropping that at this point. I had enchanting since BC which I was a tank instead of DPS. I am only missing like 30 enchants total in the game, having around 225 enchants total.
So I was wondering, if I dropped skinning, which would be better for me to pick up? JC or BS?
I'd go for JC as you've been already told.
Originally Posted by Twistedkiller
Also I just updated my pants to t9 as it was my only t8 that was 10 man. But now wondering with the new meta you suggested, which is the best blue gems for me to get.
But back to my orignal question really. Should I be tryying to be getting closer to the armor pen cap vs going to strength, even if the strength SEP is higher atm. Main reason why I ask is I have seen warriors with no so hot gear do better dps then me and he claims its cause he gemmed armor pen. Tho I did notice he does have grim toll. I do realize that maybe I didnt make the best of gear choices in the past but I am tryying to get that corrected now.
As fury Arp is not a must as arms. Use Landsoul's spreadsheet to determine when Arpen is better than STR. Why when? because once you've reached certain level of passive armor pen % (from gear) that's when it becomes effective between a min and a max. For example (this numbers are just for the example this is not the real thing, if you want real numbers go to the spreadsheet) arpen starts being effective at 44% passive arp and after 48% str becomes better again. So you'll have to recalculate your arpen gemming depending on which upgrades you get, etc, etc.
So basically don't just try to reach the cap. (and obviously get an arp trinket, mjolnir runestone)
Mostly is like that.
As fury Arp is not a must as arms. Use Landsoul's spreadsheet to determine when Arpen is better than STR. Why when? because once you've reached certain level of passive armor pen % (from gear) that's when it becomes effective between a min and a max. For example (this numbers are just for the example this is not the real thing, if you want real numbers go to the spreadsheet) arpen starts being effective at 44% passive arp and after 48% str becomes better again. So you'll have to recalculate your arpen gemming depending on which upgrades you get, etc, etc.
So basically don't just try to reach the cap. (and obviously get an arp trinket, mjolnir runestone)
Mostly is like that.
Hi, I'm quite new to spreadsheet, so from what you say about ArP, I will have to look at the SEP for each individual stat, whichever stat is higher, I will focus on tt stat first til another stat become higher? Currently on my spreadsheet, my str sep is 1 and arp is 0.9188, so I should not focus on Arp first? Current ArP is 30.22%
Actually I'm having some issue with the right trinket to use, Death Choice and Darkmoon Greatness or Death Choice and Grim toll, although I have a higher dps metric with Death Choice and Grim toll, but when I try out ingame, I feel Death Choice and Darkmoon Greatness doesn't lose out because of their frequent proc. Hope you can explain in more detail and teach me how can I decide the right combination with landsoul spreadsheet. Thx
And that is why I am having problems understanding what to do. Same as Airdunk85. I keep getting told by people ingame to work on armor pen, but the spreadsheet says to work on strength. I am asking for advice cause I am mainly being told 2 different things. I am tryying to understand why/when to work on armor pen. I ask here because you guys have WAY more experence and research done on this then the people ingame. I love the spreadsheet and is the most helpful tool I have ever used. In fact, I was lost when landsoul didnt have a released version out for 3.2.
Thank you Thorhammar cause you answered my main question. Mainly I should trust the spreadsheet until it says to work on the armor pen and not just going out tryying to reach the cap. I just wasnt sure what I should do.
The problem with asking people for advice on your server is that the choice of ARP vs STR is dependent on your gear. The spreadsheet can automatically see and calculate what you need, whereas the players you are asking (most likely) do not have any specific information regarding your stats and are just taking blanket guesses.
To add a little info on why it's annoying to see so many of these questions. One of the biggest annoyance factors associated with being one of the top Warriors on WMO is constantly getting whispered by random level 1 alts asking if x player from x server should gem for ARP or STR. I always refer people to the spreadsheet and always get the same response "Why would it be different?". It is different for everyone because it depends entirely on your current gear and gem selections. ARP stacking requires a large amount of ARP to be effective. Most people don't understand that if you are not at a point where ARP stacking is the best choice that just throwing in full ARP gems might actually hurt your performance as opposed to helping it. And determining if you are at that point is made significantly easier if you are using the spreadsheet.
And that is why I am having problems understanding what to do. Same as Airdunk85. I keep getting told by people ingame to work on armor pen, but the spreadsheet says to work on strength. I am asking for advice cause I am mainly being told 2 different things. I am tryying to understand why/when to work on armor pen. I ask here because you guys have WAY more experence and research done on this then the people ingame. I love the spreadsheet and is the most helpful tool I have ever used. In fact, I was lost when landsoul didnt have a released version out for 3.2.
Thank you Thorhammar cause you answered my main question. Mainly I should trust the spreadsheet until it says to work on the armor pen and not just going out tryying to reach the cap. I just wasnt sure what I should do.
The thing with ArP is that there is no one true answer as to when you should start gemming for it.
Firstly, ArP is subject to general stat-interdependancy which means that you will gain nothing from neglecting your other stats in order to achieve high ArP values. The general statement of "go for ArP as soon as your above the 30%-treshold" is therefore simply not universally valid.
Secondly, and this is where ArP is different from other stats, ArP scales with itself, meaning that the more ArP you have, the higher the value for one point of ArP. This means that the same set of gear can give you completely different values for ArP, depending on which gems you choose as your basis for SEP-calculation. With ten sockets on your gear, the difference between full Str gemming and full Arp gemming is almost 15% of ArP. Consequently, the fact that the sheet shows ArP below Strength in value with full Str gemming does not mean that it is not worth gemming for ArP as this number changes as you replace your Str gems with ArP gems. e.g. using some late Ulduar/earl ToC gear, replacing 10 Str gems with 10 ArP gems raises the value of ArP from 0.9378 to 0.9491. Not quite enough.
So, there is no short answer to the ArP-question. You will really have to try different gem-setups with the sheet, but always keep in mind the soft cap beyond which ArP will definitely loose on Str if you're using one of the ArP proc trinkets.
Hi, I'm quite new to spreadsheet, so from what you say about ArP, I will have to look at the SEP for each individual stat, whichever stat is higher, I will focus on tt stat first til another stat become higher? Currently on my spreadsheet, my str sep is 1 and arp is 0.9188, so I should not focus on Arp first? Current ArP is 30.22%
Actually I'm having some issue with the right trinket to use, Death Choice and Darkmoon Greatness or Death Choice and Grim toll, although I have a higher dps metric with Death Choice and Grim toll, but when I try out ingame, I feel Death Choice and Darkmoon Greatness doesn't lose out because of their frequent proc. Hope you can explain in more detail and teach me how can I decide the right combination with landsoul spreadsheet. Thx
Originally Posted by Twistedkiller
And that is why I am having problems understanding what to do. Same as Airdunk85. I keep getting told by people ingame to work on armor pen, but the spreadsheet says to work on strength. I am asking for advice cause I am mainly being told 2 different things. I am tryying to understand why/when to work on armor pen. I ask here because you guys have WAY more experence and research done on this then the people ingame. I love the spreadsheet and is the most helpful tool I have ever used. In fact, I was lost when landsoul didnt have a released version out for 3.2.
Thank you Thorhammar cause you answered my main question. Mainly I should trust the spreadsheet until it says to work on the armor pen and not just going out tryying to reach the cap. I just wasnt sure what I should do.
Regarding the trinkets for both (lucky bastards if you got the death choice :p I'm starting to think that is a myth cause never dropped, just as the edge of agony ¬¬) I'd go for death choice + mjolnir runestone (or grim toll) due to the combination of +str +arpen.
I'll not confuse you more with calculations and else but the way strenght works and scales differs from arp.
What it would be wise for both is to spend a couple of hours reading all the info gathered on the in depth fury thread and this one to learn more about how arpen works and what to consider when obtaining new gear and using the spreadsheet this means that yes, you'll have to check your current sep with the gear you have equiped now to know when each point of arp has a higher scale value than str.
Also another thing to take into account is that the spreadsheet displayes an utopic like dps so don't be surprised if the spreadsheet tells you that you could be doing 7k dps and then you end up in 6k-5k (timing, lag, etc, etc and external variables all kind of things could happen in the middle).
Originally Posted by Recab
Always trust the spreadsheet. The problem with asking people for advice on your server is that the choice of ARP vs STR is dependent on your gear. The spreadsheet can automatically see and calculate what you need, whereas the players you are asking (most likely) do not have any specific information regarding your stats and are just taking blanket guesses.
The phrase I've marked in bold is something that should be taken into account
Landsoul, I don't think theres such a thing as +20 agility to boots. Was trying to decided what to put on my boots when I found the "bug"
Page: ARMS, LOOKUP
Error Type: TYPO
No such thing as +20 agility, I think you meant +16? Pretty sure its a simple fix, I just don't know where the corresponding cell is.
And that is why I am having problems understanding what to do. Same as Airdunk85. I keep getting told by people ingame to work on armor pen, but the spreadsheet says to work on strength. I am asking for advice cause I am mainly being told 2 different things. I am tryying to understand why/when to work on armor pen. I ask here because you guys have WAY more experence and research done on this then the people ingame. I love the spreadsheet and is the most helpful tool I have ever used. In fact, I was lost when landsoul didnt have a released version out for 3.2.
Thank you Thorhammar cause you answered my main question. Mainly I should trust the spreadsheet until it says to work on the armor pen and not just going out tryying to reach the cap. I just wasnt sure what I should do.
First of all TwistedMind(Killer) please read my private message to you, it was about 2-3 pages of information, and while most of it would have been valid for the discussion I was afraid I was going over board on providing the information. Mostly in helping others I find I help myself more.
Basically about the Armor Pen discussion, without a trinket, or large ammount of armor pen gear, which ICC looks to be adding even more, there is very little need to gemming for Armor Pen. Honestly I am not sure how anyone else does it but gemming is a last resort for me, and really if some magical thing happend and I was suppose to gem for something else, I'd probably ignore it, and wait until I get upgrades. Because right now, everyone is mostly gearing for STR, and as the discussion is point out STR does some amazing things for you, especially now that you can get something like ~40% bonus from it.
Really the discussion is sort of two fold. Mostly we've been trying to answer the question of what do I gem for, but if you start saying well what do I gear for, why is my dps so low, then you into a upgrade concern. Upgrades are very tricky, and I tend to have to put 2-3 pieces into the shreadsheet, and reitemize. Gearing is more about the big stats, like Expertise and Hit for me, keeping above those caps, is a good rule of thumb, even when the sheet is behind, which is understandable. Rarely does an item JUMP out and not get noticed, unless its a mail or leather for me. However over time, when you start seeing the Boots of the Icewalker with its generous ammounts of dps stats you'll start to notice those as well. I tend to pass on them, for the people who can only use them for a while anyways.
Unless your gear is wildly out of wack, and I'm seen some that was a bit off, but still do quite well, Your really not going to do much to improve your dps, as opposed to looking at your buffs, rotation, and other factors. I think for Twistedmind I noticed you weren't using Icytalons, which is HUGE. You weren't doing AOE damage which is another buco factor. Again its really hard for others to analysis this without going into a lot of your details.
The sheet does in fact answer all these questions I raised, you can even adjust your lag. Is it going to be perfect? Not by any means, however Im finding if I adjust for what I am doing, and find things I am not using it lowers my dps. How much it will lower your dps depends on your milege as some are fond of saying. I even went into a custom rotation and found my dps was 2k lower due to that fact alone. Which for the first time my dps matched the spreadsheet, IE quite low. If you take off all the raid buffs, and stuff and you pratice on a test dummy I was even getting closer results,
In the end its about trust, trust is not something you give, you test the results, see for yourself and over time you may feel more comfortable with that. However I don't think you ever blindly trust something. For instance the 3 trinekts mentioned, Grims, Deaths, and Greatness are the top trinkets in the game currently in some regards. In some gear choices you get to use Grims/Death however its about which would be better with your gear and what you have available.
MikHaven's Warrior - Why I didn't roll DK Blog http://mikhaven.blogspot.com/
Discussing the differences between the Warrior and the DK.
Regarding the trinkets for both (lucky bastards if you got the death choice :p I'm starting to think that is a myth cause never dropped, just as the edge of agony ¬¬) I'd go for death choice + mjolnir runestone (or grim toll) due to the combination of +str +arpen.
I'll not confuse you more with calculations and else but the way strenght works and scales differs from arp.
What it would be wise for both is to spend a couple of hours reading all the info gathered on the in depth fury thread and this one to learn more about how arpen works and what to consider when obtaining new gear and using the spreadsheet this means that yes, you'll have to check your current sep with the gear you have equiped now to know when each point of arp has a higher scale value than str.
Also another thing to take into account is that the spreadsheet displayes an utopic like dps so don't be surprised if the spreadsheet tells you that you could be doing 7k dps and then you end up in 6k-5k (timing, lag, etc, etc and external variables all kind of things could happen in the middle)
Actually, I'm not really concerned that I should do the same dps as what the spreadsheet states. I understand the spreadsheet serves as a good reference but I'm actually want to understand when you all mentioned on using sep to get the appropriate gears. For my case, my str sep is still higher than arp sep, if so, why when i put death choice and grim toll together, spreadsheet shows a higher dps metric compared to the one when i put death choice and darkmoon str together?
Because Grim Toll proc is 612!!! Arp not 300 STR. Its not just about SEP - the proc value is doubled. There is of course more at play - greatness seem to proc a bit faster, and its 15 sec proc not 10. It has better passive stat as well. But still in some configs the MASSIVE amount of arp from toll/mjolnir comes ahead.
Regarding the trinkets for both (lucky bastards if you got the death choice :p I'm starting to think that is a myth cause never dropped, just as the edge of agony ¬¬) I'd go for death choice + mjolnir runestone (or grim toll) due to the combination of +str +arpen.
With my current setup, the spreadsheet tells me that I can reach the exact same dps using a Grim Toll or a DMC:Greatness depending on the gemming. Mjolnir comes out ahead though (but sadly I don't have it). So really really always trust the spreadsheet as there is no way to know at first glance by looking at your stats like we could somehow do before the ArP Nerf.
Got a question. I went to compare someone elses gear and get div/0 error. What is this error and how can I fix?
One of two options, I would go to the armory check to make sure they are in the right gear, and talents, either will mess you up. I know that happens to me when I even try and armory myself.
Second you could enter their gear in manually, making sure to adjust all the things we've err landsoul mentions in his opening statements, professions and such.
Alternatively you could go to World of Logs, find their server, and their guild and compare their numbers, sorta more in depth view, but thats what I did to you, because I am working on mine as well. And I already put you into the sheet, and various other things. Any such site would probably do, and checking various sites, is like comparing these tools to other tools. Although I must say Landsoul's is the best.
MikHaven's Warrior - Why I didn't roll DK Blog http://mikhaven.blogspot.com/
Discussing the differences between the Warrior and the DK.
Before 3.3 goes live I plan to add an option to use rend in the Fury rotation. Not a lot of players will be comfortable with using rend in their rotation, as it requires a lot of attention, decision, and action in a short timeframe to apply it manually without an efficient macro. It also requires low latency, Glyph of Rending, 3/3 Tactical Mastery, a Mangle debuff, 2/2 Improved Rend, and a healthy amount of rage generation to recover quickly from loss. So it will be left as a togglable option in the console.
I have been using it for a few weeks and can personally testify it is a slight boost in single target damage and have had parses with Rend as 2-3% of my overall damage. You can see a recent WoL of Patchwerk PTR DPS here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis . I'm not sure if Blizzard intends for Fury Warriors to use it, but it is viable in the right circumstances.
I'm having trouble getting it to work with my warrior.
When I try to open the excel file with 2007 I get the error "Excel found unreadable content in 'Filename.xlsm'. Do you want to recover the contents of this workbook? If you trust the source of this workbook, click Yes. So I click yes and it opens up the file. Once in the file tho I don't see any buttons that say Armory Import Button. So I have no idea how to upload my character to use the spreadsheet. I try putting my name/server/race in the respective fields but it doesn't load my character either. What am I doing wrong? How can I get it to upload my character?
Is it possible to filter out the Leather and Mail items in the Lookup Tab? I just want to see what plate is available. I know I can manaully filter but it sort of breaks the spreadsheet...
is it just me or does it seems that the arms tab is really bugging out, after i choose my gear and click calculate SEP value button it freezes and then everything comes back as #VALUE! on all the number tabs but if i go to the fury tab and click on the sep value on landsouls gear its doing as normal and calculate teh sep values as normal any help?
*edit* Landsoul mate, something is wrong with teh Arms Tab i just updated my office 2007 with SP2 and its still bugging out with the #VALUE! problem and even when i dont import my char trying with your setting with your gear it does the same
Last edited by nothingtoxic : 10/29/09 at 11:37 PM.
10/27/09, 3:06 AM
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