I'm finding that with Really amazing icecrown gear and caps (particularly crit cap) are reached, that the 10 STR 10 Haste gems will be better than 10 STR 10 Crit. And thanks!

I'll have to find some way to fit the heroic version of it in a PvP set and/or PvE set. It might take some figuring due to the sheer amount of hit it has.

Congratulations, Landsoul.

Edit: mindless none-sense.

Just picked up Grim toll yesterday and I'm sitting on 42% passive arpen which is about 16% too low? Anyway I chucked some arpen gems in the spreadsheet to make up for this and noticed a significant dps loss over strength/strength crit gems... am i doing it wrong?

:edit: grats landsoul by the way, keep up the good work <3

I am not sure exactly what your referring to for reasons pointed out later, but a couple things of significent note:

First we need to set the context for arms/or fury. Since your currently stuck in arms, I'll talk about this, as the numbers make more sense in that context. I am also not sure if you are referring to pvp or pve. But I'll focus on PVE.

If you look at anything else besides the spreadshet, you'll noticed the numbers you are referring too. Thats just what makes Landsoul deserving of getting an item in game for himself, albeit crappy. (Depending on if you need a hit helm with that much hit, but it really depends on the itemization, I'd rather see a pure dps helm, but maybe they are saying caps are better) However in your case the hit helm would be a significent upgrade.

These questiosn come up frequently, and makes me want to yell at blizzard for a 5 year old system they haven't updated yet. Making this spreadsheet viable for the next 5 years at least.

The sheet is telling you from your arms import standpoint of view, so any number of things could be wrong. That you are at 100%(-10arp) when grim toll procs armor pen now. If you try and tell the sheet you want to gem for pure armor pen you get the somewhat disapointing results you complain about. I believe acctually that the 16% sounds familar, because its the ammount of armor pen you get in arms stance with the talents for it.

The significent other problems are in the fact you talent for 2 points into expertise, where as you have 30, according to the sheet 103 rating over the *cap*. Your hit is also 2% lower than it should for arms. Getting a Strength of Nerub, and gemming for the rest make up for some pretty huge dps gains. Although I'm torn your spec is more for arms pvp, and not arms pve. And if your referring to fury, well thats a whole new ball game. Use the sheet is is just unbelievable as you well stated. For fury the simple answer would be your arp sep is not high enough to justify going for pure armor pen yet. Depending on your 2nd weapon, and number of sockets. Caps are paramount though.

sorry didn't realise i was logged out as arms, my question was in the context of fury - my arms spec is purely for pvp dailies :P

:edit: just logged out in fury gear/spec

Thanks, in the back of my mind I knew that was what you were asking, but its hard to really see what you asking from the previous comment. About 4-5 pages ago, I answered a very similar question, and in the weeks since then I've had a chance to reflect on more of the question. I'm going ot say the answer is out of my league.

However, lets turn this around, and sorta rephrase the question, see if that is what you would like to know more about, than why its not a dps increase. However first the basics.

First of all I will say your crit is high enough to not be concerned about that, your hit and expertise are both nicely capped, and your gearring is as complicated as mine at this point, I believe you shouldn't drop a huge expertise or hit item until you have another way to make up for it. Your milage may vary. Your only upgrades at this point are going to be a rise in the primary states, Str, ArP, and then Crit. According to your sep values. Which is probably why your asking the question, Str right now is 1.0 and your arp is .982! The simple answer as I stated is basically keep gemming for str. The armor pen will come with upgrades, even into ICC from the looks of it. And getting a higher armor pen will then force you to switch out gems for str instead. If we had a 10str/10arp gem this would be an entirely different discussion I am sure.

I guess the real question, to the experts in the crowd, why gearing and gemming for a 100 armor pen is not a significent dps increase versus gearimg for a more strength based build, once you hit your caps.

I will answer what I know as I have before, it comes down to itemization. Hit and expertise up to the soft caps are the first best thing any new character needs to do, once you hit those caps. Gearing for any other stat, other than str, seems to be a insigificently dps increase in the short term. I also favor a healthy dose of crit, and the sheet backs me up on this, as well as my own personal experience.

I believe GC recently pointed out this wouldn't change in Cataclsym. Namely a warrior would want:
Str, Crit, Expertise, and Hit. With the ammount of talents and abilities that use str and converted attack power, we can see that ultimately strength is king! In terms of pure dps increases.

Armor pen had its hayday, and after a while it can be safely said that it was due to the fact that armor could go negative and it CAN NOT be negative anymore.. And was much easier to hit hte cap. At that point, I think a LOT of misconception went into the mix, and there is nothing anyone can do, but refute that. I imagine you still hear, why don't you gem for armor pen. I think the safe answer is, because its not a dps increase. Not to mention, cost is always a factor.

I am sorry to throw you off Landsoul, technically I mean 100% armor pen. However your answer really hit upon a wide variety of topics, it really answers the question quite nicely.

Landsoul Excel Miester.

If I am reading your 3.3 picture right, you have a table, persay, of slots, and you can click on those slots, and it changes the sheet down below. If I ever apply for a job with Excel, they'll ask how well I know Excel, and I think Ill have to say I can never match Landsoul. Your mad genius is freightening at times. The ellegence is what strikes me the most, it solves all sorts of clunky problems. Heres a thought, if this was done to the data in the spec page that would be scary. The flow charts are good, but the data charts could be consolidated, I mean that sounds like a lot of work, but I hope you can visualize what I mean. Have a button for say Caps, and it shows in the sheet below. Would make it finding data so much easier. How'd you come up with such a ellegent design?

setting bloodsurge to 0 in talents breaks the sheet

Your spreadsheet does indeed work very nicely with Excel 2010 beta. It's a lot faster than Excel 2007 was on my PC too.

Thanks for the tip Lotuseyes!

I find the idea of having to be concerned about being crit capped intriguing, but I see what you're talking about with the sheer numbers on all the new ICC kit.

Having thrown some numbers into the spreadsheet, to estimate the sort of gear we're talking about, I'm wondering if we're going to start seeing top-geared warriors at the top of dps charts more often in ICC, or if other classes will scale just as well?

Historically, the gear in the last instance before an expansion (Naxx/Sunwell) has tended to cause warriors to outscale everyone else in dps, so will be interesting to see what happens.

That's a bit insane, I would agree. Consolidation of the data on the spec pages (Fury, Arms) would be an unsightly task. The plus side of it, though, is that you don't ever need to look at all of the crazy unorganized data to use the full functionality of the sheet.

Having a navigation menu for the item tables just made perfect sense to me. It solved a majority of restriction issues with '97 and was not too complicated to impliment. The Nav menu essentially teleports you to a different location on the same page so that you don't have to scroll to it.

I can't seem to be able to upload my armory into the spreadsheet. Each time I open up the spreadsheet I get an error first telling me that Excel found unreadable content in the workbook and if I want to recover it, then it tells me that in order to open it Excel had to remove Visual Basic for Applications. After that happens it will not let me upload anything into the spreasheet. I have all macros enabled and the proper settings for the spreadsheet running also. I really enjoy this spreadsheet and would like to get it to work at full capacity. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Approaching critical strike cap isn't as intriguing as it may sound. It only means the small portion of whatever is left of your white attacks (as in your offhand attacks for the majority of the time) no longer is possible to be a mere hit, either glancing, miss/dodge (in some cases) or a crit. After the crit cap your special attacks will still benefit from crit rating on your gear but crit rating doesn't in any way boost your melee portion of your total damage any longer as in no more rage gain. With a few leather/mail pieces some warriors aren't that far off the cap already in Coliseum, but if we're forced to wear more hit in ICC on offset parts (I doubt it, as we'll always be going for minimum hit parts) we'll be extending the crit cap. However, it isn't fairly interesting since hit hasn't been an interesting stat for warriors at all after special attack cap in WotLK.



On your second point, historically warriors also were limited by their rage. We're no longer designed around the assumption that we're going to be able to convert almost all rage into effective damage, nor around the assumption that rage is a precious, rare resource. Also, say in Naxx for example, no other class gained extra resources by upgrading gear (for example, rogues didn't have either sinister strike glyph or combat potency), and when a class who lacks resources suddenly finds themselves non-lacking interesting things occur, which was obvious in Naxx.

Historically, as in TBC as well, warriors did have an extremely low crit rate if you would be comparing the numbers. The introduction of having all possible melee buffs in a standard 25man raid setup alongside with what I would say an extreme increase of relative stats gained from gear has caused us to already having high flurry rates, which wasn't nearly the same in either TBC or vanilla.

This means we're not going to see any elevated rates of flurry uptimes that's worth mentioning.


I've thrown in the ICC gear as well, and although lacking proc-modelling I'm finding that there is no extraordinary dps-gain to be found (compared to other classes), that is if the arpen modelling with extreme high numbers of arpen is correct.

Here's for hoping I'm wrong!

That happens most likely with Windows 7. And after some days of googling, I've found zero solutions.

So until new notice, you'll need to run it in another OS. Maybe an emulator would do the trick, haven't tried so (I simply swap to the laptop with vista).

Hey there, guys! i have followed this site, especialy this thread for about a year or more, but never rly came here and commented, so if i do anythign wrong or miss a point, it was not intended and i apologize.

My question here is:

Im using the latest landsoul spreadsheet (11/24/09).
currently im sitting at, as Fury:

1624 Str
41.69% Crit
32/32 exp
100 haste
and... 127 Hit Rating (i have 3/3 on precision --> 3.87% + 3% = 6.87%)

yea. 127 hit Rating. Thats where i wanna get to. As u all can see, im undercapped by quite a chunk. However, when i calculate my SEP, HR is only a valuable stat after Str, Arp, Crit and Agi.
I tried gemming HR on the spreadsheet with the proper color socket and all, but the numbers show me its not valuable at all in comparison to a equivalent str gem.

So, at that point, what do i aim for? put the sheet aside and soft cap my HR or just go along with the spreadsheet and go to my str stat way and leave my HR where it is at?

You are a human warrior, so maybe sheet count that you have a draenei in your group - that make 1% hit more for totaly 7.87% hit.

cool. yea, i think it would be ok for some fights, but many other encounters the rage i'd get if i didnt miss a HS could be crucial. so i guess ill go after the softcap either way.

tnx for the reply, guys

btw, yea, it was with 1% from the draenei, so i was almost softcapped (7.87%). i totaly forgot about that, ty.
with the draenei 1% hit increase i think i wouldnt need to, but for outside the raids, it wouldnt be wise to go walk around with 127 HR.

Outside of raids, you're not targeting level 83 (boss level) mobs, so you don't need 8% Hit. The most you'd need is 6% for 82s. So, this level of Hit would not be detriment outside of raids.

Congratz landsoul on your own decently itemized helmet tribute ;P

I have W7 and no problems running the spreadsheet. I don't think its the os problem, maybe try reinstalling Office, won't hurt.

Gz on ur own item Landsoul! Though I'm pretty sure they wanted to give u some headache by putting hit rating on it

Using the latest spreadsheet I may have found a bug not sure.
Using the heroic version [Justicebringer] in my main hand and using the heroic version of [Reckoning] in the off hand.

For the offhand the spreadsheet shows that Reckoning is better than the normal [Justicebringer], but SimulationCraft shows the normal Justicebringer is better. This includes gems and berserking enchant in the main and offhand.

I've been told that this is because the spreadsheet may not be taking in the way flurry works for same speed weapons.
If I understand this correctly when there is 1 charge left on flurry and you're using same speed weapons both the
main and offhand will both get the haste buff from the flurry charge.

If I made any mistakes feel free to correct me. Thanks.

Hey Guys...

Land´souls BiS shows [Boneshatter amrplates] Heroic as Bis.

In every Situation of item swapping with mixed 245 / 258 [Armguards of the netherlords] hero beats boneshatter armplates hero by around 80dps!

I think it is because bloodbath belt heroic and t9,25 leggings have nearly exp cap (25) and with boneshatter exp is wasted ri´ght?

How can we assume Boneshatter as BiS?