• landsoul

I still think you should cleave off the shield if you have improved cleave. The extra damage of heroic strike won't make a difference there. In fact you are hurting the raid if you don't cleave, since the fight will last longer due to the off-twin not being damaged by you during the shield.

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
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Randywatson

From what I have seen from Ulduar through ToC, fury warriors shine on encounters that have some increased damage mechanic or are cleave-friendly. On most other encounters, fury warrior dps has definitely lagged behind the pure dps classes and even lagged behind hybrid dps classes while still gearing up. Once sizable upgrades are made to each slot (particularly in ToC), fury warrior dps has been comparable to other hybrid dps'ers but not surpassed them generally speaking.

With all of the patch notes that I have seen from 3.3 and Icecrown Citadel, I have yet to see any significant nerfs to fury warrior dps similar to what we saw going into Ulduar (Titan's Grip nerf) or going into ToC (Armor Pen nerf). With how well fury warrior dps scales with gear and with the quality of gear expected out of Icecrown, I'm getting pretty excited to see warriors become much more competitive in terms of dps. I hope that I'm not overestimating it here but with how well armor pen scales for us and with how the rage mechanic works, I'm thinking that our overall dps increase from obtaining Icecrown gear will outpace other dps classes. Is there anything here that I'm missing or do you believe this optimism is warranted?

 

aylene

I would say your optimism is slightly higher than my own, but perhaps that's just the pessimist in me talking. I'm fairly sure unless the death knight class is looking upon some nerfs, we will never be outscaling them even though we could in theory outshine all other classes.

What I'm considering is first that there isn't a huge rage-gain allowing us to use more abilities to be expected in ICC since we're already very high in that matter (unless we're cleaving). Secondly, we pretty much get any piece with a -10 % penalty due to TG which obviously puts back our scaling. Look to other classes such as death knights, dk's are already doing alot of damage even on singletarget fights (they do intend to blow minds on multitargets) and they're getting every piece of gear with a 15 % buff (since they're in Blood Presence), however this is hugely simplified and not taking into account the scaling via talents and so on it is still food for thought.

When it comes to warriors scaling good with %dmg modifiers this is still the truth, we do get even more rage. However, double-dipping issues has been resolved since several months back and thus our true edge when it came to % dmg modifier fights has been severely reduced. Add to that the fact that we're seldom rage-starving as it is, the %dmg modifiers are feeding us with alot of excessive rage that doesn't see any use at all. If we could turn all the rage we get into damage on such fights, we would see a huge increase. However that probably requires retuning of heroic strike and such (which has been promised several times) and isn't relevant to this thread since we're not going to see changes in that area in ICC.

As such, other classes merge that has mechanics that aren't completely functional (as in double-dipping) which will allow these classes/specs to be put forward where warriors used to reign. Retribution seals comes to mind [edit: might have been fixed already], the new design of scourge strike comes to mind (which double-dips with itself). The true test when it comes to defining what class still scales the best with %dmg modifiers will probably be on Blood-Queen Lathanel or whatever her name is, and for those unfamiliar with the encounter it's basically an immense dps-race with a +100 % dmg modifier.


There are however glimpses of hope in what might be seen as a negative read. In ICC we can properly hardcap arpen without requiring all the gear you could possibly get; although this already is possible in TotC it's hard to pull off without losing expertise or hit and ap while doing so. In ICC the ilvl leap will be high enough to allow us to hardcap arpen, which hopefully gives us a significant dps increase.

In order for warriors to once again rock the damage meters we're going to have to scale far and away better than every class, and that just doesn't seem likely, and even if hardcap arpen with ICC gear would provide a big chunk of damage it probably wouldn't stay that way.

On top of that, Blizzard has introduced on several encounters the reduction of aoe-dmg taken. This has a huge impact on our damage as whirlwind counts as an aoe (even though it has a maximum targets limit, but that isn't for this thread). P1 Beasts + Faction Champions in TotC and Saurfang in ICC comes to mind. Once again we'll probably be outshined by our twin class the death knight since the diseases does not count as proper AoE thus overriding any area of effect damage reduction mobs might have which at the moment is severly gimping all other classes including ours.

As I read through this I realize this might sound as I'm bashing on death knights, that is not the intention. However, they will most likely be the class that's the hardest to beat on any given encounter in ICC.

entering godmode since '06

 

alienangel

FWIW, they learned from Faction Champions and are only putting the AoE reduction on Saurfang's Adds: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Deathbringer Saurfang - Feedback (Nov 12) - so whirlwind/heartstrike/multishot should still hit him for full damage, leaving fury warriors no worse off than most classes - Unholy DKs still get a free pass thanks to disease spreading though.

As for being able to hardcap ArP more easily in ICC gear, in addition to what you said, everyone else will also be hardcapping ArP more easily in ICC gear too, so the relative DPS positions shouldn't shift much just because of that.

 

aylene

UH death knights was my primary concern however and the fact that they get a "free pass" on several encounters makes our daily struggle to score high on the happy-meters harder.

And concerning arpen you're correct that everyone leaps in ilvl in ICC. However several classes do not gain alot from arpen as we do which renders the point somewhat moot, meaning that whereas we're yet able to stack one of our best stats fullout we will be able to do so in ICC, when for example said UH dk's or ret paladins for example aren't going to gain such a modifier in ICC as hardcap arpen currently is.

entering godmode since '06

 

alienangel

Sorry if the tone wasn't clear, but I wasn't posting to disagree with you about how DKs stand with respect to warriors, just clarifying that Whirlwind's rotational use isn't going to be penalized in ICC like it is in ToC - they very explicitly and intentionally are avoiding that penalty for the boss. Basically no one will get to AoE on Saurfang other than DK's via Pestilence, but no one will be penalized for having AoE abilities as part of their single-target rotations against the boss either. Single-target against the adds though, yes fury warriors are still boned - it would be nice if they allowed the targetted mob to still take full damage.

On the ArP note, yes, several classes do not gain a lot from ArP. Several classes however do - ferals, hunters and I think rogues already reach the point of valuing ArP over everything else, just not as easily as warriors do. So while Rets and UH DKs and casters wouldn't benefit from that aspect of ICC gear, the other physical DPS all will. If DKs spec blood (I don't claim any knowledge of how viable that will be, but if) they would probably benefit greatly from hardcapping ArP as well. The relative benefit of the stat isn't as much for say hunters and rogues compared to warriors, but being their best stat already, the net effect is fuzzy enough to be unable to say anything definitive about warriors gaining in DPS ranking in comparison to them.

If Simcraft has finished updating 3.3 changes, we can probably start seeing some quantitative comparisons of theoretical DPS now that the Tier sets all finally have their stats out. Your initial question about how warriors will stack in relation to other classes in IC will probably be best answered via the Simcraft runs that should be going up soon (if they aren't already) as the loot tables are fleshed out. They were fairly accurate for predicting Ulduar DPS rankings for each class and spec, I'd expect the same for ICC.

 

Anik

Hey guys, found something you may be interested in.

SnowfallKeyPress is an addon that makes your abilities activate on key press rather than key release.

The author claims it's "similar to reducing your network latency by 100ms" and seems to be aimed more toward PVPers, but the benefit I've noticed is with weaving rage dumps and bloodsurge procs into the fury rotation more cleanly. Not sure how much of a difference it will make, will be trying it out tonight, but for those of us who are constantly trying to prefect our rotations worth checking out.

 

Baervar

I wouldn't exactly hold my breath on seeing a significant solo-target dps increase compared to other classes.
Thing is, with the way things are right now you already have ArP cap ~20% of the fight, while gemming your gear to sustain your dps in other depts (i.e. crit and str). Come 3.3 you'll prolly be seeing warrior reach arp cap without any proc but with more focus on ArP on gear (gemming and such) than the people who have GT/MR now (who have more room to gem for other things). Of course you may be able to get arp hardcap with ICC hm gear without gemming much but at that stage you're also comparing yourself to other similarly geared dps classes.
Anyway i am expecting DPS to scale up a bit faster for us than it does for other classes, but far from something groundbreaking.

My question would be if this will work better for arms (particularly if there will be a great mace out there - thought with that legendary axe i guess it would be the aim of most warriors) than fury - i.e. will dps scale even faster for arms than for fury with ICC gear?

 

Ablimoth

I haven't done any math, but I would doubt that Arms will scale better than Fury in ICC. The sole reason for Arms' competitiveness at extremely high ToGC gear levels is due to the ability to hardcap ArP, which it is theorised Fury will also be able to do in ICC.

I think Arms will fall well behind Fury at ICC gear levels and be even more relegated to those without the gear to spec into Fury.

As a side note, I was incredibly pleased to see confirmation that Saurfang will take full damage from Whirlwind.

 

Krumsha

Hiya, I'd like to understand how our class produces exactly rage points from hits,because I've tried gemming for ArP,than for Strength and I've noticed that My rage starts being high for the first 1:50 Minutes from the beginning of the encounter,than starts to drop till 0 and than stay un'till I spam Bloodrage or Berserker rage...

So,what could I change? There's something i'm not doing Exactly?

 

Baervar

I don't think you really got what i meant - it's pretty obvious you'll be able to get arp hardcap with both fury and arms (hell you can get over 90% as fury as well even now), it's more of a matter of how much mobility in gearing you have after reaching it. And since arms reaches it easier you'll have more space to itemize for other stats - this is where my question came in: will this result in arms scaling a bit better on single-target dps with ICC gear or not (i'm still not expecting arms to best fury, just wondering if it will be more competitive or not).

Also with better and better weapons coming on slam will prolly scale better than execute as you gear up, making me wonder if fury warrs should spam exec over slam even if they have it spec'ed and glyphed (or non-cleave fights).

 

Ablimoth

Ah, I understand better now. I don't think I agree however. Battle Stance is a static 139(ish) ArP that Arms doesn't have to spend to get capped, best case it puts Arms at 139(ish) strength more than Fury, before modifiers, ignoring our offhand stat stick. It's a static amount, so it will not affect scaling.

Slam! vs. Execute will be relatively simple to math out once we see the weapons available.

 

Zimbambadu

Technically you're hurting the raid by not dealing as much damage to the shield as possible, but then again you're also hurting the raid by not kicking the heal cast .5 seconds before the shield goes up so you never have to switch. =p

 

Ablimoth

Can you do this? I haven't noticed it in my raids (damn Australian latency. It makes me cry to edit it in Landsoul's spreadsheet and watch the dps drop by 1000).

 

Scyne

Yes you can, the shield will still be there but since the heal is already interrupted you can just let the shield die from cleaves. Its probably an exploit though since its not intended that you can interrupt it before the shield is down.

 

Pepine

I finally got an i245 Dual-Blade Butcher the other night (first one we've seen drop!), shelving one of my swords (Edge of Agony, Aesir's Edge). I had gemmed expertise to 26, since I was unable to take advantage of the orc racial. Keeping the Aesir's Edge as my offhand, and keeping the 20 expertise and 10 expertise/15stam gem in them, my expertise is currently 26/21. I would be unconcerned about this, except for the fact that I saw both a Bloodthirst and an Execute parry yesterday in raid (on Onyxia, which is a side attack). So, which option is the best for me:

- Stay as is, 26/21 expertise, until I get another axe
- Change my offhand to the Worldcarver to stay fully expertise capped (losing arp and crit in the process)
- Stay as is, but regem expertise or use elixirs/food to stay offhand capped

Rawr indicates the best option for me is the first, so I'm assuming my parries the other day were related to my position on the mob, or that the occasional parry due to offhand expertise is not worth the loss in strength. However, if the expertise rating for the offhand actually matters, I am looking at either going with an inferior weapon for offhand, or having to overgem expertise as it relates to main hand.

Second question is about trinkets. I currently have a Mjolnir's Runestone, Greatness Card, and Grim Toll. I am at about 44% passive arp from gear. I have been using MR and Greatness, with several orange strength/hit gems to stay capped. Rawr indicates about a 70dps increase by switching those gems to Str/Crit and using GT over the Greatness card. I am assuming this is because I will have more arp at all times due to procs, and will be capped if they proc at the same time. Is this a case of "Rawr is wrong"? Or, am I best benching the Greatness card until I can get softcapped with Mjolnir procs?

Thanks in advance for help.

 

NoAnger

26 expertise doesnt remove the boss chance to parry your attacks. 26 expertise is to remove the boss dodges. Getting a parry means you aint counted as standing behind the boss.

 

Dhamon

Pepine -

One solution to your trinket problem (armory shows you in Wrathstone, not Greatness) is that you could use Bloodshed band (35 triumph badges) which gives you 46 hit. This allows you to resocket ALL 4 of your hit gems to pure strength, or ArP (to make up the loss from the ring). If you can take those 4 sockets and get closer to the 52.6ish% needed to reach 100% when MRS procs, then you should be using that + greatness.

This is of course, just my suggestion.

 

Pressure

The hit rating needed not to miss specials is 164 (5% with 3/3 precision).
However the hit rating needed not to miss white swings is much higher.
I was missing 12% of my normal melee attacks at 174 hit on a heroic target dummy ...this reduced to 5% miss when I had about 300 hit.
Anyone know the hit rating not to miss normal swings?
The reason for asking this: at 300 hit rating I had about 100 dps increase than over 174 hit rating.