TidelWave

If the changes go through, what should we strive for in hit. Expertise is still 26 (18 with WM). What will we need for Hit? I have made huge strides in my hit, and certainly would rather start gemming for STR, since I am close to the old cap of 460. Any idea how much lower the cap will be now?

Sorry...not a math guy :o) I just look at my character screen and try to hit the target numbers there.

 

Pogues

Hit rating is mentioned in this thread, the first page of the Warrior simple answer thread and the first post of the combat ratings thread.

If you read this forum they will tell you that hit over the soft cap becomes one of the lowest stats for returns. You should not need to be gemming for the hit cap as is since it is basically a given with one or two peices of 80 gear.

Edited: for clarity

 

pumpen

Well one thing ive been thinking alot about is how will the spec look after patch with no -hit penalty, like i said earlier my hit atm is 12.66% and on top of that precision, should i even consider removing precision and go for something else? If so imp BR or even imp execute.

 

damagedgoods

The main thing i see the loss of hit penalty doing is opening my gear choices a little more. I'm over hit capped with gear now but certain pieces weren't really an upgrade if I lost too much hit.

It just gives a little more flexibility for moving from blues to raid gear in terms of item selection.

I'm not sure who was complaining that we needed buffed either so I foresee some cries of OP especially from hunters. They are a "pure dps" class and are getting the nerf bat.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Dropping points in Precision strikes me as a dubious choice. While extra hit past 9% won't be necessary it will certainly be useful for mitigating the ever capricious RNG. Even if that ceases to be a concern I feel we will be better to itemize down to 6% + Precision than to trade Precision for Imp BR or Imp Execute. In a situation where the RNG isn't a concern the bonus rage generation from Imp BR isn't particularly useful. We get enough rage per hit that the chief benefit of Imp Execute (i.e. lowering the minimum required rage) isn't an issue. If there were some other significant DPS increasing talent it might be worthwhile to dump Precision, but as their isn't I don't see that as a good choice.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Graul

Show me two pieces of gear that give you 5% hit, and on top of that I'd really love to see someone with 8% hit as TG actually do well. The change to Bloodsurge raises the value of hit over what it was anyway if only minorly. Hit or haste beyond the "cap" will perform similar functions at this level of gear. Hit is not a bad stat at all, it just doesn't give you as much of a boost under perfect rage sequences that do not exist in reality.

Once you can Heroic at least once for every Bloodthirst without ever having to worry about not having enough rage to use random Bloodsurge procs as well as WW and still have enough rage to use BT again as soon as it comes off cooldown, then hit will be the least valuable stat. Whether or not it becomes less valuable sooner depends on how Bloodsurge is going to be prioritized with the GCD.

 

Pogues

I was more replying to his post saying he was near 460 hit rating, which with the new no penalty will be extremely high, and a waste of gem slots. I should have made it more clear that I was referring only to gemming hit to reach the white hit cap as he was stating in his post. Obviously, I was exaggerating with the two peice of gear, but with gear that has 80 hit rating and weapons with 50+ it won't be a problem to maintain a high hit rating + precision, which I would always keep. I guess I was being to simplified in my statement, but it seems after 361 there is no reason to gem for hit, but just let any increase in hit come from gear upgrades. After the patch I can't picture a need to gem for hit, unless all new raiding gear lacks hit entirely.

 

Mortensen

Hai guyz

I was wondering ,as a Fury Warrior, how viable it would be to focus on +hit like Rogues do because we also are using Dual Wield. I mean, Rogues are focusing on trying to cap the Melee Hit with like 20% hit because they Dual Wield, why don't we do the same ?

Thanks

 

Tkon

The reason rogues do it and warriors don't is b/c we do not have combat potency. They gain energy for OH attacks, atm we're not having any rage generations issues @ around 12%+ hit.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...jerks/tkon.png

 

Kaap

Last night I looted the 2-handed Sword from 4 Horse Men and it dropped me back to 309 hitrating because I replaced Titansteel Destroyer. Having read the comments here and other places about the hitcap beeing 8% instead of 9% I decided to do some testing.

I gemmed a bit and got to 10.16% hit. Specced Titan's Grip and 3/3 Precision.

I did 2 test rounds on the Boss test dummy in Orgrimmar with a duration of 5 minutes each. I have Booming Voice and the Battleshout duration Glyph so Battleshout becomes 5 minutes. That was my timer and I felt 5 minutes would be a decent test.

First round I used the default rotation, BT, WW, Slam on proc and HS when others on CD. Results on Recount clearly showed 0 (zero) misses on the specials. I am not Expertise capped so I did get dodged and parried, Recount did register them as well so seemed good to me.

To be sure I did another round of testing, again 5 minutes, and all I did was autoattack and Execute. Again no misses!

I am now very very confident that the required amount of hit is 8%.

 

Revelations

im running 11,68% chance to hit atm plus 3% from precision and got a draenei in my raids 100% of the time+40 hit food. Still I engage patchwerk sometimes and get a tripple miss in a row, tbh Im going for atleast 12-13% hit but without gemming for it, and I would never consider to drop a point in precision.

 

• Morsexy

[Crude Discolored Battlegrips] and [Valorous Dreadnaught Battleplate] are two that I would use and are nearly 5% hit. Sub in [Undiminished Battleplate] and you're over 5%.

I think people are really making much to much out of gearing choices. All this should allow is gearing paths that perhaps were not available before. Whereas I won a [Drake-Mounted Crossbow], I didn't use it right away because with [Pierce's Pistol] I was exactly at 361 hit rating. Granted in a raid I would have a Draenei but now I can use the crossbow without worrying about hit.

I realize some of this may be obvious but I read people asking about the hit cap and we don't even have any real good data one way or another, so I know for me personally I am not changing much about my gear until I have something solid to go on. I feel as though only in the last week should you have started changing some gear to account for the new specials hit cap being 8% vs 9%.

It's really a totally different game at higher gear levels in raids with full raid buffs vs anything else. I feel as though if you're running 10 mans and maybe a rare 25 man you have it tougher judging for yourself a lot of these considerations.

 

Schneeb

General query but related to your gear, does kings effect gems? (I've always thought it did) Always wonder why warriors in particular use AP gems over str!

 

Graul

You use what's readily available. Most of the time AP is used in place of Str because the Str alternative isn't there yet.

 

RPZip

Most STR/X gems don't exist in the game yet in blue-quality. There is no Inscribed, for example, which is STR/Crit.

Admittedly, this bothered me a lot more before I was a JCer. Prismatic gems of any type are kind of amazing.

 

Duranthor

It's funny Shha, as soon as I saw the change to TG I had the exsact same thought as you. I know you have not always agreed with my lament that we cant' get incite, however I will make it agian. If we could get incite somehow, I believe fury dps would be almost perfect.

The change has also made me reevaluate much of the Badges gear, and I think the change has made it much better. Almost all of it is Str/Crit/Haste.


Quick question: I've seen reports that Mongoose procs less at 70 and I've seen reports that claim that it remains unchanged at 80. I was wondering, has anyone verified at all if it has changed?

I didn't see an answer to this in this thread.

Thanks

 

• Morsexy

As others have said, when I got the gloves and the helm, no one had 16 str available for cuts. Now that its socketed that is like 15th on my priority list of stuff to do for that 6 AP I'm missing. But I'm getting closer to the point where I'll have nothing left to do but deal with gems.

No str\hit str\stam gems really is annoying though.

It is the same reason I'm not exalted Hodir yet, one old world item ->new world = more worth than ~22 AP. Laziness part of that too obviously.

 

Rocco

New glyphs of Doom has arrived!

Best ones are

Glyph of Whirlwind (Class: Warrior) - Reduces the cooldown of your Whirlwind by 2 sec. (Old - Increases the number of targets your Whirlwind ability hits by 1.)

and

Glyph of Cleaving (Class: Warrior) - Increases the number of targets your Cleave hits by 1. (Old - Reduces the rage cost of Cleave by 5.)

I guess its a choice between WW Heroic + cleave or execute, with execute as the most common glyph but cleave for certain things like beeing on adds on sarth 3 drake.


Anyway, grats us, finally an awesome warrior glyph!

whole list: MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies (includes no removing of the healing debuff on mortal strike, 6 sec longer rend etc)

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...-jerks/rco.png

 

• landsoul

Holy crap a whirlwind cooldown reduction glyph?

New rotation with WW glyph:

Period1	Period2	Period3
Seconds Ability 0.0 Whirlwind 1.5 Bloodthirst 3.0 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 4.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 6.0 Wait 6.5 Bloodthirst 8.0 Whirlwind 9.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 11.0 Wait 11.5 Bloodthirst 13.0 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 14.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD	Seconds Ability 16.0 Whirlwind 17.5 Bloodthirst 19.0 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 20.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 22.0 Wait 22.5 Bloodthirst 24.0 Whirlwind 25.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 27.0 Wait 28.5 Bloodthirst 29.0 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 30.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD	Seconds Ability 32.0 Whirlwind 33.5 Bloodthirst 35.0 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 36.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 38.0 Wait 38.5 Bloodthirst 40.0 Whirlwind 41.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 43.0 Wait 44.5 Bloodthirst 45.0 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD 46.5 Bloodsurge Slam / FREE GCD

Looks like delaying BT 1 second every once in a while to gain 2 on WW every time. Any possible loosening to increase DPS if Slam proc?

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW

 

Shha

I dont think rotation is a good way to handle it now.

While BT can get a lot higher then slam with various procs, on average its around 15% more dmg then slam for me - thats without highest possible weapon etc. Thats with 2 piece t7 obviously but still.

I think its going to be a GCD based rotation more. From my real raid stats

(for a reason its easier to post crit damage for me so its all crit values)

WW -7500 dmg 25 rage
Slam - 5500 dmg 15 rage
BT - 6600 dmg 30 rage

Now BT is very inconsistent and can go from 5.5k at times to 9k+ depending on AP procs.

I think however that its too much to ask to track all AP procs to change your rotation based on that so:

WW

0.5 sec left on cd when GCD comes up:
Slam 1st
loss of 1 sec of WW efficiency - so 1/8 of 7500 dmg or 937.5 dmg.
Slam after
no WW damage loss, but a chance that WW procs slam thats wasted - 36% for a wasted slam proc for 5500dmg = 1980 dmg lost on average.

So even if there isnt an upcoming BT that can fiddle with your 5 sec slam cast, it seems prioritizing slam is BETTER.

Obviously with 1 sec left on WW cd its even more beneficial - it also is MORE beneficial even if there is no GCD collision - Slam should just take priority over WW no matter the circumstances.

BT

0.5 sec left on cd when GCD comes up

Slam 1st
Loss of 1 sec of BT effectiveness or 20% of 6600 dmg = 1320 dmg. If BT was with high procs it might go up to ~2k dmg loss
BT 1st - 20% chance to waste a slam proc for 1100 dmg.

It seems that ironically enough - even when WW hits harder then BT usually, its better to prioritize slam over WW, but not over BT

So overall I think rotation isnt a good idea - you just prioritize BT>Slam>WW

Either way WW seems to go back to its place at end of our list - mainly because of longer cd - while it does hit harder, delaying it is lowest loss to dps because it takes 8 delays of 1.0 sec to actually LOSE a WW damage over fight.

 

• landsoul

I like this logic. How would we make a model of that though, and what are the implications of lag and player reaction?

So you would say like, BT every 5, but delay WW to a degree based on your chance of proccing Bloodsurge? What would that degree be equal to?

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW

 

Dob

I apologize in advance for moving back to the 8% vs 9% discussion, but I have a WWS from a recent 10 man Naxx+Malygos, in which I used just over 10% hit. Now, I had a few weird misses show up, and at first I assumed a few would be from whirlwinding while the mob was out of range, and it counting as a miss, but then I saw missed executes on KT.

Not sure if this is concrete evidence in either direction, but feel free to use it as more evidence in the ongoing debate.

 

Kaap

You can still miss white attacks yes. But specials cap at 11%.

 

Vitalstatistix

Those are parries not misses. If you expand all the rows on your abilities tab you can see the breakdown of "misses". At a top level WWS categorizes actual misses, resists, dodges, parries and blocks all as misses.

 

Shha

Basically my post above doesnt take some stuff into account. The only real conclusion seems to BT every 5 - and with that assumption im doing further calculations. So our Rotation looks like this :

BT
GCD1
GCD2
wait (0.5 sec)
BT
GCD1
GCD2
wait
.....
and then in the "GCD" the choice is between a slam proc and WW.

The 2 GCD wont be the same so they need to be treated separately


*** GCD1 ***

a) Slam proc up, WW up in 0.0-0.5 sec (so basically ready - the 0.5 sec "wait in rotation lets you shift the WW like that)

1) doing WW 1st then Slamming means you dont lose any WW damage but you lose 0.36 of slam damage.

2) doing Slam 1st, means you delay WW by 1-1.5 sec losing 1/8-3/16 of WW damage, and then risk of losing 0.2x0.36=0.072 of slam damage (if both WW and following BT proc slam)

option 1) with my numbers is 1980 damage lost, option 2 is 396 damage loss from slam and 962-1400 dmg from WW.

Conclusion - Slam on GCD1. (its obvious that if WW is 1.0 sec delay the calculation would be even worse).

*** GCD2 ***

a) Slam proc up, WW up in 0.0-0.5 sec

1) Doing WW 1st, then slamming means losing 0.488 Slam damage (2684 dmg) (because BT later can proc it too)
2) Doing Slam 1st then WW means
a) If following BT procs SLam - losing 4,5-5 sec of WW damage (4330-4812 dmg)
b) If following BT doesnt proc Slam - losing 3-3.5 sec of WW damage (2888-3369 dmg)
its around 3150-3500 dmg loss

Seems that if WW is up within 0-0.5 sec that WW is better on GCD2.

b) Slam proc up, WW up in 1sec.


1) Doing WW 1st, then slamming means losing 0.488 Slam damage (2684 dmg) (because BT later can proc it too) and 0.1 of BT damage (0.5 sec delay) so ~3350 damage total
2) Doing Slam 1st then WW means
a) If following BT procs SLam - losing 4 sec of WW damage (3850 dmg)
b) If following BT doesnt proc Slam - losing 2 sec of WW damage (3369)
So 2310 damage


Overall the rule would be :

a) BT every 5 sec
b) in the following gcd prioritize slam.
c) in the 2nd gcd, prioritize WW if its less then 0.5 sec on its cooldown, or slam otherwise.

Now for actual play its a very far fetched assumtion, that people can make that decision on the fly and flawlessly. With the numbers i used, it seems most sensible to simply say :

a) BT every 5
b) When Slam is up , Slam
c) When WW is up and Slam and BT are on cd , WW.

Or simply say BT>>Slam>>WW where the >> means you wait even if the other skill is on cd - as long as the cd is shorter then gcd.