I find the variability of 2-piece to be frustrating due to how much it causes dps to fluctuate. On Festergut I've had anywhere from 7% to 24% uptime according to log parses, which naturally causes a pretty large swing in dps (and the inevitable "were you asleep this week?" from the rogues). This week it only procced twice during Festergut (7% uptime). I suppose being near the offhand white crit cap probably is leading to a lot of deep wounds combining and less overall ticks.

post-on-post, I got a question.

One of my guildies asked me if a fury warrior couldn't sacrifice 2 points in their fury talents to reach the ms debuff / Furious attacks. However, I don't really see this happening without me or any other fury warrior in the raid lowering their dps.

You could spare one point in improved execute to put there, but that's basically the only point in a fury specc I feel like I can change. And I'd rather have that in heroic fury tbh, and the dependency for 1/2 points in furious attacks feels more like a waste than a gain, because the proccrate of 1/2 instead of 2/2 is of greater meaning, unless you are one lucky master of proccing. And if I was going to max it, I would have to either spare 2 points of execute and no heroic fury, or have my slam damaged lowered, my ww damage lowered, my strength and thread reduction lowered or the procc rate on bloodsurge lowered, or ultimately: no titans grip.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no way to specc furious attacks to 2/2 without gimping myself more than it's worth? Right? And if the MS debuff is that needed, it should be more effective for a rogue to use wound poison for one fight, or a hunters aimed shotm and the obvious mortal strike from an arms warrior, than having a fury warrior SPECCING two points in something lowering their dps output? I'm guessing the dps lost for a rogue while using a poison that lowers their dps is about the same a fury warrior would loose? The difference is that a warrior would have to specc it while a rogue could simply apply a different poison for one fight.

I'd like input on this, guessing alot of you have far more knowledge about it than me, I'm just floating off common sense, that might not be the best!

If this is true (and I think it has been confirmed several times), I see no reason to go for 4pt10 before ilvl 277.
4% chance in theory, but every style has a 20% chance to overwrite it with a worse proc? This should devalue the p4t10 bonus extremely.

If your raid needs an MS debuff, the amount of DPS you'll lose from dropping Imp Execute will pale in comparison to the amount of healing you'll prevent through the debuff. For example, if your Marks routinely die on Saurfang the MS Debuff will prevent 219k healing in 10 man, 784k healing in 25-man, for each Mark.

It's a moot point if there's an Arms Warrior or Marksman Hunter around, as Mortal Strike and Aimed Shot are part of their normal rotations. That said, you're obsessing a bit much over two of the least important talent points in a Fury Spec. With the poison mechanics change in 3.3 and our 4pT10, Rogues will almost certainly lose more DPS swapping poisons.

Builds such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft are completely viable using 3/3 cleave,2/2furious strikes and even 3/3 precision. Based upon gear considerations you could move precision out to imp berserker rage/heroic fury/commanding presence/imp execute as you choose.

Seriously gimping your dps output is only a valid complaint at lower gear levels where you literally aren't floating in an overabundance of rage.

If not saving 5 rage on a GCD filler during the last 20% of a fight is a major dps loss you have bigger problems than the MS effect being lost

The only problem I see is that Furious Attacks used to randomly drop off... a lot, which would be a real consideration for it versus Wound Poison which has the advantage of not going away at the most inopportune times. I haven't tested it in some time, but I don't think it's been made any less crappy since early 3.2 when I tried to pick it up so our Rogues wouldn't whine so much about Wound Poison.

1/1 Anger managemnt gives you more rage than 5/5 Unbridled Wrath. If you need rage so badly at those gear levels you might want to save yourself some points and redistribute them.

It depends on fight. In general you are wrong - 5/5 UW gives way more rage (1 per swing, counting offhands its easily double). UW also (and thats the real reason why i like the talent), gives you 3 rage points per cleave - for me its a "cleave" talent. Rage gains on single target fights really hardly matter, however extra 2-3 rage/sec when cleaving on anub adds some real dps.

You are not guaranteed to get one per every swing. 5/5 is something like a 50-60% proc rate. I'm pretty sure I've seen it stated by all the well known warriors that deal with the math that 1/1 AM ends up being more rage than 5/5 UW.

With a standard speed 2h, you tend to get 100% per swing. 50-60% rates was BC times when we dual wielded 1handers. In fact with particulary slow 2h, you might want to get only 4 points in it.

Even at 50% rate though, you get more then 1 rage/3 sec from it.

After reviewing a WoL on Saurfang, a fellow warrior in my guild who has UW 5/5 gained 114 rage from it over the course of 4.65 minute fight. Anger management over this time period would give 93 rage. While this is just 1 case, it still shows that AM gives much more rage per talent point than UW. A glyphed cleave on a fight with multiple targets would shorten the gap, but UW is still clearly inferior.

First of all , I never said to NOT take anger management. I have it as well. You can take both.
Second, the post I replied to, claimed that AM is better then 5 points in UW, which is false. Point for point AM wins, I wont dispute that.
Third, I said that UW is basically a talent for CLEAVE fights (where it can double its effectiveness).
Fourth - outside of cleave fights, we are basically rage capped as it is, so neither talent makes much sense .

A list and logical, I like that. Yes, but someone before you was saying that they take 5/5 UW all the time because it feeds them rage. I thought whoever posted the rage gen comparisons was supporting them (shows me to half follow a thread and then post in it). Honestly, I do like the 2/2 imp zerker rage over either UW or AM. 20 rage on demand is quite helpful if you mess up and bottom out. Not to mention entering every boss at 100 rage is glorious.

Now taking both or all 3 just sounds wierd. You're talking about 8 talent points, when I don't even feel comfortable with playing with 2 in the fury tree half the time. But different strokes for different folks I guess.

I personally find imp zerker rage to be basically worthless. Problem is - yes 20 rage on demand is nice, but the opportunity cost makes it useless. When would you use it? If you are rage starved then you dont heroic anyway, so most likely you will get rage EARLIER then 1.5 sec (GCD triggered by imp zerker rage). On average using imp zerker will delay your abilities MORE during rage starvation then simply waiting it out.

Now that only applies to current (ICC) levels of gear - imp zerker rage was a decent talent early in naxx days.

So not 8, but 6 points - and only for cleave fights (if you min max your spec for fights - as I will most likely do in heroics - for now i dont really bother).

The reason to take improved berserker rage is mainly to start fights with 100 rage, as far as I know.

Unbridled Wrath doesn't even procc from Cleave and Heroic Strike, only from white melee swings. You always have your offhand hits even when you spam Cleave of course, but it doesn't exactly have any sort of synergy with Cleave on AoE fights except that's really the only time when more rage is useful.

If that was the case then, it has most certainly been changed, probably along with the general "procc nerf" that happened recently. Looking at any recent log shows that it consistently proccs from only white hits but not from cleaves. For reference: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Show a 70-75% procc chance with 4/5 points in the talent. Looking closely at the combat log reveals that proccs always appear ~1 second after a white hit, and in periods where the only damage is cleave, there are no proccs at all. I checked a few other recent logs and all seem to indicate the expected ~17-22% procc chance on white per talent point.

Yes I think you're probably right actually. I'll see if I can dig up the old posts about UW just to make sure I didn't imagine them.

In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion

This and the post following shows a log where UW is clearly proccing off of cleave and heroic strike, but based on your log it doesn't seem to work like that any more.

It looks like Unbridled Wrath was changed on 1-5-2010 to not proc off Cleave. I'm not sure about Heroic Strike though. I didn't check for that. I just checked my old logs where Cleave damage did the majority of my damage. Well i guess it may be time to spend those points elsewhere now. Sure wish Blizzard would notify us of changes like these.

Theres really no other options you can consider, assuming you're going 19/55. If your raid is bringing imp mighty and blood pact theres really no other dps increments you can get with the 5 points in UW. Anyone finding themselves using intercept more often in ICC?

I thought UW was changed a long time ago to only generate rage off of white hits. Was this reverted when they changed it to PPM? It appears that it's currently no longer showing this behaviour anymore, but I'm suprised that it apparently did at all.

Blood Pact is 1729 hp even with 3/3 Improved Imp while Commanding Shout is 2818 with 5/5 Commanding Presence. This 1089 extra hp is mandatory for serious 25-man raids so your first fury warrior should always take it.