Vhad

How does items feel better? I'd like to see your math as it'd correct my wishlist. I did some quick calculations on the legs/chest/belt and here's what I found:

Leather chest has 9,4 attackpower 83 expertise and 63 arpen over T7 that has 0,8208% more crit.

Leather legs have ,49% less crit 15,9 less attack power and 66 less expertise for a gain of 65 haste and 66 hit.

What!?

 

Darian_TruBlade

While stance dancing Rend above and below 75% has been discussed previously, the potential rage loss and rotation issues will become more significant with the upcoming changes. The shorter cooldown on Whirlwind puts significantly more pressure on when one can fit the stance dance in. Additionally Whirlwind, Bloodthirst and Heroic Strike will have a 20% chance for Bloodsurge procs. Any rage lost stance dancing for Rend could have been used for Heroic Strikes and Slams. The opportunity cost and penchant for human error in the practice seem prohibitive.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Cranium

Leather can be a better choice even considering AttT. If you are looking at 9.4 AP, 83 ExP, and 63 ArPen vs .82% crit? Clearly the leather has more and even more so if they need the ExP. Is that gain more than the AP bonus of AttT? Maybe? The point is that on some gear choices it can be higher, and leather can be better.

 

Do0mbringer

-Edited out

 

Vhad

What, I'm not arguing against leather, I'm arguing against using it when it's clearly not vastly better. I've got the malygos25 man gloves in my wishlist for endgame gear, because they are best in slot if you put 0 value to the 4 set bonus.

Clearly the leather can be better, but if you tell me you struggle to get expertise capped with a gear setup you can color me surprised, if you don't need the expertise (very likely) I'm hard pressed to find 63 arpen and 9,4 attackpower better than 0,82% crit.

My point was mostly that since we were given ATTT, leather pieces are often much closer to the plate pieces in effective value than they have been before - see m'uru leather chest versus plate one.

What!?

 

Do0mbringer

I agree plate is very close to leather now, and better in some/many slots. But I do not think AttT alone justifies going almost all plate, I still hold that many of the leather items are itemized better still.

I guess it comes down to preference and current gear in the end. It also turns out that I was very close to the crit cap on my whites. So it was a matter of either stacking more hit to get some crit, or stacking haste and some armor pen. I chose the second route, not sure if its better yet.

 

Phrentic

Can somebody explain how Deep Wounds E X A C T L Y work? According to my WWS it doesn´t work as most of us think it would work and as WoWWiki says.

I thought it works similar as pre 2.0 "rolling ignite" from mages worked. But thats not the truth!

1. Bleed dmg is not only calculated by average Main Hand dmg.
2. The dot doesn´t "roll" as mage ignites did before 2.0

 

Rallik

It's been explained a million times and is incredibly easy to understand. You land a critical attack, 48% of your MH damage(or OH if an OH crit) is added to the damage remaining in your DW debuff, and the timer resets. That is exactly how it works.

 

Phrentic

Yes thats right. So its not rolling. So multiple Crits in a short periode of time dont do more dmg just because they landed shortly after each other. Thats what I thoungh.

 

FromTheAshes17

- Edited out for repeating another person's post. -_-

 

Schneeb

I did a quick test last night in naxx after having the heroic dummy parry me with 19 expertise and 2/2 WM (6.75%), sure enough I got the odd parry in naxx too, what the hell is going on? (I dont seem to ever get dodged anymore, is parry now higher?)

 

suicuique

It has been told a hundred times already that parry is way higher on bosses than dodge (BC bosses had parry up to 14-15%)
6.5% as antidodge is attainable. Parry however is not. It does not need to be ... clever positioning solves the parries.

 

sveno

If you can call standing behind the boss clever...yes. Bosses can dodge from behind, but not parry. Players can't do either.

 

Grapefiend

Apologies if someone has already asked/covered this in the thread so far, but what are peoples opinions on a 12/51/8 spec for TG.
I did some testing last night on Target Dummies and came up with a 50 dps increase with the 12/51/8 but more total damage done with the cookie-cutter spec (18/53/0). Losing Deep Wounds was big and coupled with Trauma or Mangle in a raid situation was even more evident of a loss. Also, losing the straight 6% damage from Two-hand Specialization was another strike against the Incite spec.

The increased crit to Heroic Strike (and Cleave for fights like Sartharion + Drakes) is the only plus but I have not gotten around to trying the spec out in a raid situation.

 

DarthGreg

Incite doesn't even come close to matching the DPS lost from Deep Wounds, 2h Spec, and Imp WW.

 

Chadw

I was thinking about doing some testing with it but I decided not to simply due to the fact that right now Deep Wounds is doing a good 15% of my DPS and there is absolutely no way Incite would even come close to that much of an upgrade, coupled with the loss of other key talents.

 

whatisfgh

Unless the tooltip is bugged (which it often is) WM doesn't affect parry, but yes see above stand in the back if you can.




Which damage meter are you using? or what are you counting in your calculations? DPS = damage/time, so a higher dps should translate into a higher damage done (assuming you're using the same time value).

 

yojoe

I just got [Betrayer of Humanity] and I'm also using [Claymore of Ancient Power] and I was wondering if weapon speed matters for your MH? the claymore has slower weapon speed but betrayer has higher max dmg so I'm a bit confused which one I should put as MH and OH. I tried to look up on wowhead if either BT, HS or WW uses weapon speed as a modifier but couldn't find any info, if someone could point me in the right direction i would greatly appreciate it.

edit: meant to type BT not MT

 

Nek

Betrayer MH.

 

yojoe

Thanks for the quick answer, would you mind explaining why it's better in MH?

 

Saizul

You put the weapon with the better damage in your main hand.

People talk about slower weapons because given equal dps, a slower weapon has higher average hit damage. But to be exact, weapon speed doesn't mean anything at all. You wouldn't mainhand [Pendulum of Doom] and offhand [Betrayer of Humanity] just because the POD is slower. A higher damage main hand increases damage from slam, which is not normalized. Whirlwind is normalized so weapon speed doesn't affect it - but you still want higher damage mainhanded because of the offhand damage penalty. I'm not sure what MT is or where it fits in to a fury rotation; maybe just having a *duh* moment? If you meant BT, that is based purely on AP, and would do the same damage wearing a level 1 grey, barring the stats on the weapon itself. The same goes for execute. The main rule is you want your better weapon in the main hand to avoid the off-hand damage and miss penalty on it.

Honestly in wotlk 2her speeds range from 3.4-3.6. It doesn't really matter. Just put the weapon with the higher DPS in the main hand. If they are the same dps, MH the slower. And while MHing the slower of two equal dps weapons is definitely better dps than not, in practice the difference you will see is small.

[e]: Removed the negativity. Sorry.

 

Nyel

Actually, i would guess that the higher end damage weapon should be place in the MH for two things:

1- Whirlwind hits harder
2- Slam hits harder

Slam isnt normalized so slower weapon DOES hit hard, but in your case, Betrayer is clearly the better choice.

 

PantheraOnca

if bt crits, is the deep wounds based off the mh? that would be another reason to have your higher dmg-per-swing weapon in the mainhand.

 

Shha

Actually considering you are wrong on your generalization Saizul I guess it does belong in here.

Yes in the given example MH BoH is better. But imagine that you have a Jawbone - a ilvl 213 weapon (203 dps or so) with 3.6 speed. Its also clearly worse then BoH, but it belongs in MH if paired with it.

Remember - as "blasphemous" as it might sound, weapons are mostly statsticks even for melee. Long are gone vanilla wow days when weapon damage contributed to over half of your dps. Right now my buffed char screen dps is what? 700? Around that. Weapon is less then 1/3.

Overall white damage difference can be pretty neglible - in the jawbone/boh example the dps difference is 20 between weapons. So if you switch them - you lose 20x(1-62.5%) =7.5 white dps.

Same way you lose some WW damage - this time around 30 dmg from MH is transferred to OH and suffers from same penalty - you lose 11.5 dmg/10sec = a bit over ONE dps.

Gains can be often more substantial. Slam is not normalized so assuming 6500 raid AP , the jawbone will give you (6600/14*0.2) (gain from slower speed on unnormalized weapon) - 30 (lower dmg range) = ~60 damage per slam. Assuming 45% crit rate thats 5.4 dps gain.

Deep wounds gain around 48% of the said 60 dmg per crit with your special so at same time they get roughly 6 dps increase.

So much for math. Now given that you might think - "ok its better dps to MH the slower weapon but math shows that difference is neglible so why even bother checking - more often then not its better to MH the higher dps". Now that i can only counter with a simple thing - fast OH gives you slightly better rage generation. Well not "better" - in fact MH fast weapon lowers cost of HS so its a bit better in this regard - but fast oh makes it way less prone to "human mistake". Since you always get rage from that, you are less likely to screw up your rotation with more steady flow there.

Overall my rule of thumb is to MH slower weapon unless the difference is less then 0.1 per "tier".


Either way - main thing I wanted to prove with this post is that dps on weapons doesnt matter nearly as much as people think. Weapons ARE statsticks - and most powerful ones at that. Good example is [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power], which trumps all heroic and 10 man weapons beside KT 10 man axe. Good stats > dps.

 

Lynx

Ok, I have been reading this thread up and down and I cannot find a definitive answer. Where does hit stop being effective over other stats? I can see 10% with precision 14% with precision and even as high as 19% with precision. Our white hits are important to us whether we like it or not. I mean white miss=standing there for 4 seconds. Not too happy. So where do you draw the line? Obviously we are not going to shoot toward 27% so you never miss because that would be over the top and the majority of that + to hit would only give ANY effect to our white hit when we could be getting other stats for all special attacks and white hits. This is what I am trying to figure out.

When I was stacking hit rating everywhere I seemed to do more dmg simply because I could constantly spam any given ability I wanted. The problem there comes in that, my special attacks were less powerful. But, I still could use them more often. So where is the line of max dps? Between quantity of special attacks and quality of all attacks?

Looking at it, I'm starting to think of pushing around an 16-18% or so. This being in order to have a great amount of rage build, but still be able to hit pretty freakin' hard with all of my attacks by stacking AP/crit/haste everywhere else.

Now on another little note, wouldn't haste simply be just like a kinda weak hit rating? Considering this: All that haste affects on us is our white hits because all of our abilities are instant and the effect on the GCD is too minuscule to matter. So in turn it is just causing us to get more white hits in more often, and hit rating makes us hit with those hits more often. So personally, I see no reason to try to get haste.

Anyway, if someone can give me a clear answer to where the line is with hit rating it would be greatly appreciated.