In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion - Page 155

Roidzz · 10/11/09, 4:04 AM

Landsoul, I armouried you the other night and realised that you had gemmed only upto 43.8% ArP and strength from there onwards --> Using a Runestone.

Is there any reason why you've left yourself ~9% off the soft cap?

Nevena · 10/11/09, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

If only my rend ticked for 6k, I would definitely do the same

. Seriously though - where do you get your numbers from?
Using just rough calculations rend shouldnt exceed 2000 ticks as fury, and quick test on dummy shows 900 dmg ticks with 6500 AP/Deathwish/Heroic JB. Granted in raids you have blood frenzy and mangle, coupled with more ap etc - still Its not a 6 fold increase. Dummy was also close to 100%. So please do not spread misinformation.

It must have been some fluke. I distinctly remember being shocked when I threw a rend on Acidmaw seconds before he submerged so I could get more dmg in, and seeing my DW and rend ticking away while he was burrowed. The DW was ticking for 1k and it ran out pretty quickly, and the rend ticked for 6k 4 times before it finished.

But clearly that isn't a good indication of rending. It's average is a bit higher than DW for its ticks. (Here's a random parse and I wasn't trying to over- or under- use it)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If it wasn't for the cleave-heavy fights, I like to experiment and run with Glyph of Rending over Execute and throw it in as much as I can without wasting instants. My parse seems to suggest it's worth losing a heroic strike to sneak in a rend.

From the parse, glances and blocks included (and ignoring the minimal DPS loss from having white swings at a slightly lower AP for 1.5 seconds because of battle stance):
Dmg gain from heroic strike = 5612 avg heroic strike - 2900 avg melee swing = 2712 dmg*
Dmg gain from rend = 5 ticks for 1200 = 6000 dmg
With the glyph that's 7 ticks = 8400 dmg

*this is higher than it should be because the avg melee swing from the parse factors into account OH dmg, which brings the subtracted value down

I have no idea why mine ticked for that high on the Jormungar on that random night and I edited my post not to be misleading. From this log though, I think rend deserves to be in the rotation for the crazy min/maxer

Aggronautt · 10/11/09, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by BWarner

Actually, Arms does quite well in low-target situations. Twin Valks, for example. It doesn't have WW, true, but Sweeping Strikes along with stronger Cleaves (relative to Fury) is a good combo, and Bladestorm helps tie it together.

Anub 10H
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Arms
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Fury

Twins 25H
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Arms
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Fury

There is obviously a gap, but I'm not convinced that it's quite so wide as is suggested. Though, a little more parity between the two would be welcome. The biggest issue isn't even WW (that particular issue is... more of an issue on 3-4 adds), it's that Fury can absolutely spam Cleave in most situations, whereas Arms does not have the rage regen from an offhand to be quite so liberal in its use of "On Next Swing" attacks.

I personally don't have any success with Arms. I guess it's just because it has been so long since I have played Arms, but, it seems like Fury is just miles ahead of it, for me personally. Tried Jarraxxus hard mode as Arms, came out at like 5.9k..did next week as fury and was 7k. It just doesn't seem like an option for me.

I'm really trying to up my Fury DPS though. I know I can do more. I just need to know when to start gemming ArP. What %? Looked through multiple pages in this thread, searched for it, just can't really find a solid answer. I want to be sure because, well that's expensive as shit. A lot of cardinals. At my gear level I would think I would be ready to gem it but, I just don't know for sure.
Edit>
I'm also having trouble deciding what OH to use as Fury. My 3 weapons are Dual Bladed Butcher, Earthshaper, and Stormrune Edge. Now, Butcher is obviously my main hand, and currently I am using ES as OH. But I've been thinking..
With the extra crit gained from the agi on Stormrune, and the high amount of ArP, would that make it a better OH?
-Less Top end Damage
-AP, not STR
-Less net AP
-Less Hit, drops me below cap
+More Crit
+More ArP
+More Agi (increased by kings, more crit)
Can't decide honestly. Is losing 50 top end worth the increased crit *about 2%* and ArP? *5.00%*

BWarner · 10/11/09, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Aggronautt

I personally don't have any success with Arms. I guess it's just because it has been so long since I have played Arms, but, it seems like Fury is just miles ahead of it, for me personally. Tried Jarraxxus hard mode as Arms, came out at like 5.9k..did next week as fury and was 7k. It just doesn't seem like an option for me.

I'm really trying to up my Fury DPS though. I know I can do more. I just need to know when to start gemming ArP. What %? Looked through multiple pages in this thread, searched for it, just can't really find a solid answer. I want to be sure because, well that's expensive as shit. A lot of cardinals. At my gear level I would think I would be ready to gem it but, I just don't know for sure.
Edit>
I'm also having trouble deciding what OH to use as Fury. My 3 weapons are Dual Bladed Butcher, Earthshaper, and Stormrune Edge. Now, Butcher is obviously my main hand, and currently I am using ES as OH. But I've been thinking..
With the extra crit gained from the agi on Stormrune, and the high amount of ArP, would that make it a better OH?
-Less Top end Damage
-AP, not STR
-Less net AP
-Less Hit, drops me below cap
+More Crit
+More ArP
+More Agi (increased by kings, more crit)
Can't decide honestly. Is losing 50 top end worth the increased crit *about 2%* and ArP? *5.00%*

What the heck does "top end" have to do with anything? No matter the damage range, the DPS (or rather, average weapon damage over time) is what's important. Hit can be made up elsewhere, so really isn't really a deciding factor.

You also did not take into account the item budget allocation disparity between Str and Agi/AP items in favor of the latter, though this is somewhat negated by the Str multiplier as Fury.

There's also the issue of weapon speed. While the total rage gen between two otherwise identical weapons with differing speeds would be the same, the intervals and "doses" of the rage are quite different. A faster OH would provide its rage in a "smoother" fashion, compared to a "chunkier" type of rage from a slower one. On the other hand, the slower OH would provide more damage when it hits in a Whirlwind. Plus, one of the weapon speeds being considered is synced with the mainhand, and one is not. The benefit of a synced weapon is that, if you can de-sync the attacks, then you can effectively prevent the two weapons from ever hitting too close to each other (causing a massive rage spike, most likely capping and wasting rage, and then resulting in a drought of sorts in terms of energy intake). The downside is that it takes rather deliberate effort to de-sync weapons, and is supremely annoying to deal with on a regular basis. If the weapons are not the same speed, this matter is a non-issue.

(And, at the risk of getting a warning for saying the same thing that's being said every other post, but still doesn't seem to be taken heed of...)
Ultimately, look to Rawr and/or Landsoul's spreadsheet for answers regarding the weapon and gemming questions, and any other sort of gear choices that come up. We don't know all the gear you have available, we don't know what buffs you have (or don't have) available, we don't know enough variables for us as outsiders to be able to recommend what your gearing choices should be. Test out your gear with ArP gems and with Str gems. Test out your gear with the sword and the mace in the OH. That's the entire reason those tools are available, to help you make difficult gearing decisions in a dynamic environment.

Aggronautt · 10/12/09, 3:07 AM

Originally Posted by BWarner

What the heck does "top end" have to do with anything? No matter the damage range, the DPS (or rather, average weapon damage over time) is what's important. Hit can be made up elsewhere, so really isn't really a deciding factor.]

You also did not take into account the item budget allocation disparity between Str and Agi/AP items in favor of the latter, though this is somewhat negated by the Str multiplier as Fury.

There's also the issue of weapon speed. While the total rage gen between two otherwise identical weapons with differing speeds would be the same, the intervals and "doses" of the rage are quite different. A faster OH would provide its rage in a "smoother" fashion, compared to a "chunkier" type of rage from a slower one. On the other hand, the slower OH would provide more damage when it hits in a Whirlwind. Plus, one of the weapon speeds being considered is synced with the mainhand, and one is not. The benefit of a synced weapon is that, if you can de-sync the attacks, then you can effectively prevent the two weapons from ever hitting too close to each other (causing a massive rage spike, most likely capping and wasting rage, and then resulting in a drought of sorts in terms of energy intake). The downside is that it takes rather deliberate effort to de-sync weapons, and is supremely annoying to deal with on a regular basis. If the weapons are not the same speed, this matter is a non-issue.

(And, at the risk of getting a warning for saying the same thing that's being said every other post, but still doesn't seem to be taken heed of...)
Ultimately, look to Rawr and/or Landsoul's spreadsheet for answers regarding the weapon and gemming questions, and any other sort of gear choices that come up. We DON'T know all the gear you have available, we DON'T know what buffs you have (or don't have) available, we DON'T know enough variables for us as outsiders to be able to recommend what your gearing choices should be. Test out your gear with ArP gems and with Str gems. Test out your gear with the sword and the mace in the OH. That's the entire reason those tools are available, to help you make "difficult gearing decisions" in a dynamic environment.

I heard you could use an excel spreadsheet on a stock Mac. :| I'm not going to spend 100 dollars getting Mac Office to figure out what OH I should use. I have tested it, but seeing as how I clear pretty much all raids Tuesday after reset, I can't test it currently except on a training dummy, which tbh isn't really the best way to go. So I asked.
The thing is, I don't currently have those tools to work with, which is why I expressed the concern on here.
You don't have to answer with a condescending tone in your post.

Macar · 10/12/09, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Aggronautt

You don't have to answer with a condescending tone in your post.

This is Elitist Jerks, just get used to it

But really if you are short on cash, use Rawr. In my experience it is not quite as good, but should be good enough.

Roidzz · 10/12/09, 6:12 AM

Dual-wielding stormrune edges was 2nd only to Voldrethar pre TOC so as long as you have the hit -- Rune edge > ES as an OH.

EDIT: Regarding the ArP% cap... 100% is what you want..

That's 1399 armour penetration rating -- 734 with a runestone (about 52.5%) and then all out STR from there on.

landsoul · 10/12/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Roidzz

Landsoul, I armouried you the other night and realised that you had gemmed only upto 43.8% ArP and strength from there onwards --> Using a Runestone.

Is there any reason why you've left yourself ~9% off the soft cap?

I always try to gem for 735 with runestone for the cap, and have 731 in my real PvE raid gear. Sometimes I might be logged off in an alternate set with different items for different purpose other than raiding which might have less armor penetration.

Also I was wondering if anyone besides me and maybe another poster here once said, was trying to incorporate rend into their single target rotation. The notion is that a well placed and timed rend (in between last and first BT) is more DPS than 1 heroic strike and its chance to proc Bloodsurge. To do this without losing too much damage, we assume that you have high end gear to be able to recover your rage bar very quickly after you switch back into berserker stance after the rend and that you have 3/3 TM to lose the minimum amount possible. Also Assuming 2/2 improved rend and a mangle bot.

Let's see how much damage it does:

Avg Range: 3665
modifiers: (impRend)*(Mangle)
modifiers: 1.2*1.3
damage: 380+Range
formula: 1.56*(4045) = 6310.2
On health > 75%, 8518.8

This is damage can be considered a full instant attack if it ticks all the way, and is unmodified by armor. I would say off the top of my head that it's stronger than bloodthirst. I haven't got much experience with it yet since I am finally getting gear where rage lulls are almost nonexistant, so I don't have to worry about banking 50 all the time just to hit BT->WW which allows the stance change.

Shha · 10/12/09, 2:26 PM

1) Its not stronger then BT under almost any circumstances. Remember BT also procs deep wounds - rend doesnt. for 60% buffed crit rate, and the 3665 damage range DW alone contribute to 1372 dmg from BT. BT is around 7500 average damage including crits, so nope, Rend is still not stronger.

2) I agree perfectly executed rend CAN be a dmg increase. However

a) How often you find yourself without slam proc after 2nd BT? Not very often for me. If there IS a slam proc, you are losing 0.5 sec from your rotation as a given (1/8 of BT and 1/16 of WW value). In fact a bit more due to lag.

b) Very often you get double slam procs (well very often is a relative term). In this case, rending is a dps loss - you need to be able to make this decision in split second - making mistakes in the process.

c) "Free" Gcds are often precious - to keep demo shout, sunders etc.

Overall I think its simply not worth the hassle. I can see myself using rend maybe once a minute - MAYBE. Given Heroic/gcd loss mentioned its 2k dmg a minute, in best case. 33dps? Nothing to write home about. And if i fuck up and miss one instant, or get rage starved on a miss streak, i risk losing a lot more. Sure the gear gets better, but I most definitely still get rage starved now and then cause of miss streaks.

Repeek · 10/12/09, 3:12 PM

With the t10 set bonuses I could see them allowing rend usage in Berserker stance. Just seems awkward that Arms would have double the chance to proc a set bonus.

sleepysteve · 10/12/09, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Repeek

With the t10 set bonuses I could see them allowing rend usage in Berserker stance. Just seems awkward that Arms would have double the chance to proc a set bonus.

The 2pc has been changed to this:

2 piece bonus - When your Deep Wounds ability deals damage you have a 3% chance to gain 20% attack power for 10 seconds.

So arms warriors(or fury warriors working rend into their rotation) won't have a double chance to proc the bonus.

Terrorfied · 10/12/09, 7:23 PM

This was discussed a while back in this thread I believe, but I dont think there was an actual number given. Whats the expertise cap against level 80 mobs for the anub'arak Hardmode encounter? Whats the magic number on expertise for it as fury?

Nevena · 10/12/09, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

1) Its not stronger then BT under almost any circumstances. Remember BT also procs deep wounds - rend doesnt. for 60% buffed crit rate, and the 3665 damage range DW alone contribute to 1372 dmg from BT. BT is around 7500 average damage including crits, so nope, Rend is still not stronger.

2) I agree perfectly executed rend CAN be a dmg increase. However

a) How often you find yourself without slam proc after 2nd BT? Not very often for me. If there IS a slam proc, you are losing 0.5 sec from your rotation as a given (1/8 of BT and 1/16 of WW value). In fact a bit more due to lag.

b) Very often you get double slam procs (well very often is a relative term). In this case, rending is a dps loss - you need to be able to make this decision in split second - making mistakes in the process.

c) "Free" Gcds are often precious - to keep demo shout, sunders etc.

Overall I think its simply not worth the hassle. I can see myself using rend maybe once a minute - MAYBE. Given Heroic/gcd loss mentioned its 2k dmg a minute, in best case. 33dps? Nothing to write home about. And if i fuck up and miss one instant, or get rage starved on a miss streak, i risk losing a lot more. Sure the gear gets better, but I most definitely still get rage starved now and then cause of miss streaks.

Perhaps delaying slam for a rend wouldn't be detrimental if used correctly. Slam procs when BT/WW are on CD, switch to battle, rend, switch back, bloodrage during GCD, slam, resume rotation. And I agree, I think it's just for people who are bored with the usual rotation and want to squeeze out as much DPS as possible

Edit:
The benefit from heroic strike (as Landsoul said: (heroic strike - MHmelee) + 20% of a slam) should be near static as gear level increases because the scaling of heroic strike is undone by the scaling of the MHmelee swing (their *based on weapon damage* multiplier should be the same, or close to it, correct me if I'm wrong).

The benefit from rend, however, should scale linearly because it also scales with weapon damage BUT has no term subtracted from it that scales at the same rate.

Conclusion: the higher the gear level, the bigger the DPS increase from using rend. For bosses like Twins, Icehowl, or any other boss with a damage multiplier gimmick, this means rend should be prioritized over heroic strike whenever possible in the rotation.

landsoul · 10/12/09, 8:42 PM

Oops, forgot about DWounds... Yeah it is very much a hassle and you can really mess yourself up if you do it wrong. The only times I know I can absolutely use it is when I am very ready to stance dance during the GCD of the 2nd BT and im for certain that BS didn't proc. It's a very fast decision. I hit rend and am back into berserker to get rage as soon as I hit rend. It's not something you can just use casually.

I very much agree also that it won't be up 100% of the time, maybe only even 20-30% depending on the fight. This is for single target also, so Beasts, Twins if you don't stack them up, and Jaraxxus and Anub when there aren't any adds. Think of it this way also, the more hectic the fight is the less opportunity you will have to use it and worry about it.

Montegomery · 10/13/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Nevena

...
Edit:
The benefit from heroic strike (as Landsoul said: (heroic strike - MHmelee) + 20% of a slam) should be near static as gear level increases because the scaling of heroic strike is undone by the scaling of the MHmelee swing (their *based on weapon damage* multiplier should be the same, or close to it, correct me if I'm wrong).

...

Actually, Heroic Strike does scale with MH damage, but does so indirectly. Heroic Strikes do not Glance, while regular MH hits do, and will also benefit from Impale. These effects increase the average benefit of Heroic Strike according to the following rough formulas:

Glance Damage Reduction * Glance % Chance * MH Damage
30% * 24% * MH Damage = 7.2% MH Damage
&
Impale Bonus * Crit% * MH Damage
10% * 40% (My average in raids) * MH Damage = 4% MH Damage

So while the bonus damage on Heroic Strike doesn't scale with MH Damage, the damage gained from 20% of a Slam, glance prevention, and Impale does. The 4pT9 and 4pT10 bonuses also increase the indirect scaling of Heroic Strike, though probably not by more than .5-1%.