Now on another little note, wouldn't haste simply be just like a kinda weak hit rating? Considering this: All that haste affects on us is our white hits because all of our abilities are instant and the effect on the GCD is too minuscule to matter. So in turn it is just causing us to get more white hits in more often, and hit rating makes us hit with those hits more often. So personally, I see no reason to try to get haste.
It was once explained like this: 1% hit , in 100 attacks, turns one miss into a hit, granting 1 additional attack's worth of damage. 1% haste, in 100 attacks, adds an extra attack entry for 101 attacks. Now, past the melee special hit cap, both stats are adding 1 additional attack. However, the hasted attack can be made into a heroic strike without negating the value of the haste, while the converted miss, if instead taken as a heroic strike, would not gain from the +hit value. Another way to look at it: assume you have 10% miss rate, and make 1 attack every second. in 100 seconds you hit on average 90 times. Add 10% hit. Now in 100 seconds you hit 100 times. Now instead add 10% haste. In 100 seconds you make 110 attacks, hitting on average 99 times. Initially, you've only gained 9 attacks worth of damage. However, if you now add the 10% hit, it has increased in value, giving 11 attacks instead of 10. If instead you had added 10% hit to the 10% hit example, you would have gained nothing.
Due to dual-wield penalty, and the on-next-melee nature of heroic strike, there is a drop-off in DPS contribution at the melee special (i.e. yellow) hit cap. Haste has no such discontinuity, and it increases both the white + heroic strike components of your DPS compared to hit's only increasing the white component.
Actually considering you are wrong on your generalization Saizul I guess it does belong in here.
Yes in the given example MH BoH is better. But imagine that you have a Jawbone - a ilvl 213 weapon (203 dps or so) with 3.6 speed. Its also clearly worse then BoH, but it belongs in MH if paired with it.
Remember - as "blasphemous" as it might sound, weapons are mostly statsticks even for melee. Long are gone vanilla wow days when weapon damage contributed to over half of your dps. Right now my buffed char screen dps is what? 700? Around that. Weapon is less then 1/3.
Overall white damage difference can be pretty neglible - in the jawbone/boh example the dps difference is 20 between weapons. So if you switch them - you lose 20x(1-62.5%) =7.5 white dps.
Same way you lose some WW damage - this time around 30 dmg from MH is transferred to OH and suffers from same penalty - you lose 11.5 dmg/10sec = a bit over ONE dps.
Gains can be often more substantial. Slam is not normalized so assuming 6500 raid AP , the jawbone will give you (6600/14*0.2) (gain from slower speed on unnormalized weapon) - 30 (lower dmg range) = ~60 damage per slam. Assuming 45% crit rate thats 5.4 dps gain.
Deep wounds gain around 48% of the said 60 dmg per crit with your special so at same time they get roughly 6 dps increase.
So much for math. Now given that you might think - "ok its better dps to MH the slower weapon but math shows that difference is neglible so why even bother checking - more often then not its better to MH the higher dps". Now that i can only counter with a simple thing - fast OH gives you slightly better rage generation. Well not "better" - in fact MH fast weapon lowers cost of HS so its a bit better in this regard - but fast oh makes it way less prone to "human mistake". Since you always get rage from that, you are less likely to screw up your rotation with more steady flow there.
Overall my rule of thumb is to MH slower weapon unless the difference is less then 0.1 per "tier".
Either way - main thing I wanted to prove with this post is that dps on weapons doesnt matter nearly as much as people think. Weapons ARE statsticks - and most powerful ones at that. Good example is [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power], which trumps all heroic and 10 man weapons beside KT 10 man axe. Good stats > dps.
I disagree with considering weapons as "statsticks" at least for the MH. For the OH you obviously want a weapon with a considerable amount of stats on it, valuing it more than the dps because the stats will contribute more to your overall dmg than the dmg output of just your MH. Thus making Armageddon/Death's Bite the best options here.
However you have to consider the amount of your dmg that comes from your MH. While your calculations involving slam may be accurate I don't believe your assumptions are. Right now slam is contributing ~4-6% of your overall dps (assuming 2pc t7) which pales in comparison to the benefits of MH the BoH and OH Jawbone as per your example. I do believe that top end is more what you should be concerned about, not speed.
Staying on the topic of Hit Rating, what are the thoughts about it after the 5% to miss is removed in the next patch? Do we knock our Hit down to the standard 8% for yellow? Doesn't that mean our whites will be missing roughly 25-30% of the time? Or do we stay around the 14% we have now? Thanks for your time.
I would say find a value of Hit Rating that gives you a comfortable amount of rage to work with. Probably around 300 would be the sweet spot.
I'm wondering if anyone has had a good look at dropping weapon mastery and speccing 2/3 imp cleave or 2/2 imp execute. Expertise seems to be on a lot of gear now and it shouldn't be hard to cap a level 83's dodge without it. Would the "stat trade-off" overcome the loss of other stats as well as the damage given from the talents? and if it does. Would one suggest cleave or execute - or something else?
I would say find a value of Hit Rating that gives you a comfortable amount of rage to work with. Probably around 300 would be the sweet spot.
I'm wondering if anyone has had a good look at dropping weapon mastery and speccing 2/3 imp cleave or 2/2 imp execute. Expertise seems to be on a lot of gear now and it shouldn't be hard to cap a level 83's dodge without it. Would the "stat trade-off" overcome the loss of other stats as well as the damage given from the talents? and if it does. Would one suggest cleave or execute - or something else?
Imp execute would prove more valuable than cleave. Cleave is very situationally and only useful on a handful of fights.
With that said, yes expertise is fairly easy to come by. However there are alternatives for almost every gear slot, and by aiming for that extra 2% expertise you're giving up a lot of potential crit/ArP/haste on other pieces that will prove more valuable.
I would say find a value of Hit Rating that gives you a comfortable amount of rage to work with. Probably around 300 would be the sweet spot.
I'm wondering if anyone has had a good look at dropping weapon mastery and speccing 2/3 imp cleave or 2/2 imp execute. Expertise seems to be on a lot of gear now and it shouldn't be hard to cap a level 83's dodge without it. Would the "stat trade-off" overcome the loss of other stats as well as the damage given from the talents? and if it does. Would one suggest cleave or execute - or something else?
I was thinking about that my self, you could aslo add another 3 more points to spend if you remove precision. I would go with 2 in execute and max out demo shout with mine.
I'd be cautious about dropping Precision. Dropping Weapon Mastery works because you can (quite easily) cap expertise. Dropping Precision is iffy to me because white hit is effectively impossible to cap, and rage starvation is still a situation you can find yourself in easily if things don't roll your way.
However you have to consider the amount of your dmg that comes from your MH. While your calculations involving slam may be accurate I don't believe your assumptions are. Right now slam is contributing ~4-6% of your overall dps (assuming 2pc t7) which pales in comparison to the benefits of MH the BoH and OH Jawbone as per your example. I do believe that top end is more what you should be concerned about, not speed.
With 6500 AP Jawbone range gets: 2257-2551
With 6500 AP BoH top end gets: 2184-2489
Having Jawbone in MH actually benefits a little more. What Shha is saying is that the importance of the DPS and Damage Range on the weapon consumed by the abundant amount of attack power scaling with the weapons' speed. You lose about 7.5 DPS having BoH in the offhand through white damage and also about 30 or so damage from the MH whirlwind, but gain a little bit more through Slam! and DWoudns activated by specials. We do mean a little bit too, a difference of about 0.5% overall which makes it difficult to make decisions on spending thousands of gold on a enchants or re-enchanting.
If you don't believe it, you can always load the problem into my spreadsheet to see for yourself.
With 6500 AP Jawbone range gets: 2257-2551
With 6500 AP BoH top end gets: 2184-2489
Having Jawbone in MH actually benefits a little more. What Shha is saying is that the importance of the DPS and Damage Range on the weapon consumed by the abundant amount of attack power scaling with the weapons' speed. You lose about 7.5 DPS having BoH in the offhand through white damage and also about 30 or so damage from the MH whirlwind, but gain a little bit more through Slam! and DWoudns activated by specials. We do mean a little bit too, a difference of about 0.5% overall which makes it difficult to make decisions on spending thousands of gold on a enchants or re-enchanting.
If you don't believe it, you can always load the problem into my spreadsheet to see for yourself.
More importantly is 0.5% worth all the explaining you will have to do to people who perceive the BoH to be a superior MH
More importantly is 0.5% worth all the explaining you will have to do to people who perceive the BoH to be a superior MH
Who could know that? But your answer is clearly nothing worth.
On-topic:
It's also better to wear the faster Weapon in the offhand, because of rage income, especially when frequently using Heroic Strike. This isn't calculated in any spreadsheets, but will most times enhance the DPS gain further.
I have been browsing a bit old forums and did not find any posts regarding something that tends to concern me lately.
I had a discussion with some friends warriors and i could not convince them that slam does worth to use it out of bloodsurge procs instead of heroic strike.
So basically the argument was whether to use slam in first place and if no why to spec BS anyway since:
Heroic strike does hit harder than slam ( slightly harder in the area of 3.4 speed where all the good weapons stand at the moment ) , costs less rage and does get benefit from the homonymous glyph while slam has no equivalent.
On the other hand slam is instant and therefore improves the flurry uptime ( correct me if wrong ) but even then this doesnt mean guaranteed dps increase. Also since it is instant it might improve the Deep wounds ticking by some amount which is situational and rng based.
So my question is: Have there been any tests regarding this issue of skipping slam in rotation?
So my question is: Have there been any tests regarding this issue of skipping slam in rotation?
Even if there is, with the changes to Bloodsurge, you should have more chances for it to proc a Slam. Though I'd like to see if anyone has done any testing on it on the PTR or number crunching on it to see what the proc % is.
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So basically the argument was whether to use slam in first place and if no why to spec BS anyway since:
Heroic strike does hit harder than slam ( slightly harder in the area of 3.4 speed where all the good weapons stand at the moment ) , costs less rage and does get benefit from the homonymous glyph while slam has no equivalent.
I really can not agree that HS hits harder since it's only bonus dmg attached to your next swing.
Let's not forget about T7 set bonus: Increases the damage of your Slam by 10%.
Even if there is, with the changes to Bloodsurge, you should have more chances for it to proc a Slam. Though I'd like to see if anyone has done any testing on it on the PTR or number crunching on it to see what the proc % is.
But that is the question in first place, even if slam procs more what is the reason to use it if the heroics benefit you more for the before mentioned reasons?
Raid buffed (imp windfury or icy talons) do you honestly get rage starved enough to have to choose between HS and slam? I can't wait for more slams and I use HS alot since a crit gives back a tiny amount of rage.
It's not very hard to realize that instant Slams are better: They're an extra attack, while HS just adds damage to a white swing you would've gotten anyway and makes it yellow, which means the rage cost of HS is tooltip cost + the rage you didn't get from that white hit. It's possible to go into more detail but it's not needed if you just want to see that Slam costs less and adds more damage. The one negative thing with it compared to HS is that it's on the GCD.
Raid buffed (imp windfury or icy talons) do you honestly get rage starved enough to have to choose between HS and slam? I can't wait for more slams and I use HS alot since a crit gives back a tiny amount of rage.
I'm hitting 20%-ish heroic strike usage on boss fights, which is about 1/2 of my main hand swings on a given encounter. I doubt rage is any sort of issue and the slam proc should never be in danger of expiring due to lack of rage. This is at a moderate 328 hit rating as well.
Are people at higher hit ratings getting higher heroic strike usage %'s due to offhand strikes?
Maybe i missed this post. But after they take off the Hit Penalty from Titans Grip. Will our required Hit Rating Cap for yellows and whites go down? If so how much?
The cap for yellow will decrease by 5% (~160 rating). The cap for white will remain the same, as it has never had a TG penalty applied to it. Still, I wouldn't cut hit rating significantly due to rage issues.
Originally Posted by MeCh
My spreadsheet says the sim is better, but the sim says the spreadsheet is better.
Maybe i missed this post. But after they take off the Hit Penalty from Titans Grip. Will our required Hit Rating Cap for yellows and whites go down? If so how much?
The hit penalty is only for specials so the removal of the penalty brings it in line with Arms 2handers and 1handers.
But you'll still want to be in the low- to mid-300s as far as hit rating goes for smoother rage generation. As as your gear improves, you can probably drop some hit and still be able to use specials on every c/d.
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Hello everyone and please forgive my mistakes because i'm not a native speaker.
I'm used to play Fury Warrior before BC, during BC and still now.
Here's my point and believe me I've almost read every post here .
In BC, it wasn't that important to go beyond the yellow hit cap thanks to the speed of 1-hand weapon and the number of strike.
In Wotlk, and i'm surprised that no one discussed that point, I think it is really important to up our Hit rate. Why ? here are my opinions, please correct it if I'm wrong :
I'am assuming that we all are expertise capped (ou cap, sorry for my english).
-Due to the slow speed of our weapon, we could not afford to miss too much otherwise we are going to be out of rage to sustain our DPS cycle. Even with a lot of Hast and good trinket, it is difficult to strike under 2 sc.
that's why I think that Hit is the most important stat in Wotlk.
here is my profile
as you can see my Hit rate is: 486 which means 14.82% of hit + 3% precision + 1 draenei. And I'am just happy with my rage generation now. I'am able to spam (almost all the time) HS while having my usual DPS cycle.
My DPS in raid condition (without Vindict pal nor Enhanc Shaman, but with a DK): 3500-4000 on Boss (patchwerk for instance. I have a constant 3500 DPS with pike on 4k+). It is exactly what my DPS speadsheet annonce but I disagree with the fact that I should lower my Hit and Up the others stats because I'm won't be able to Spam HS as I do now...
My highest BS top to :9k+ on trash mobs and 6-7k on boss (I recently changed mirror of thruth to test an optimization on hast through my trinkets as you can see.).
So, I must confess that i'm pretty "unlucky" with my stats because i'm always under what I should in terms of Crit. But the miss rate is correct so...
Thank you for reading this and I'll be happy to have some advices.
as you can see my Hit rate is: 486 which means 14.82% of hit + 3% precision + 1 draenei. And I'am just happy with my rage generation now. I'am able to spam (almost all the time) HS while having my usual DPS cycle.
Hit is important for rage generation but not so much at the expense of other stats, especially past the hit cap for specials.
Take for instance, your hit gems and glove enchant. If you replaced them (for example) with comparable str/attack power items, you'd be dropping 52 hit rating but adding close to 100 attack power.
You're not missing specials, you should have more than enough rage being generated at 400 hit rating yet you'd have 100 attack power. That means harder-hitting slams, bigger bloodthirsts and deeper deep wounds.
Just like in 1.0 and TBC, hit is a valued stat we're not rogues and past a certain point, you're better off adding crit/attack power. That'll help your DPS even more.
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I'm hitting 20%-ish heroic strike usage on boss fights, which is about 1/2 of my main hand swings on a given encounter. I doubt rage is any sort of issue and the slam proc should never be in danger of expiring due to lack of rage. This is at a moderate 328 hit rating as well.
Are people at higher hit ratings getting higher heroic strike usage %'s due to offhand strikes?
Im sitting at 373 hit rating at the mo, offhand misses do starve me if im not careful, at the moment I spec into imp zerk rage to hit when rage is low after WW/BT/Slam - really looking forward to getting hold of another piece of T7 to give some more defense against rage starvation!
12/24/08, 3:27 AM
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