1 Hit-rating is about 15-20% of the worth of 1 Str, when special capped (10% on Equip + Precision + Draenei aura). So it's really not worth to socket hit. You will miss more auto attacks, yes, but the ones hitting the target generate more rage because you will have more stats that are boosting your damage and therefore your rage too. In addition as already stated, every special hit will deal significantly more damage. And don't forget Berserker Stance and Blessing of Kings, they boost the AP/Str you socket even further, making them clearly the superior stats.
This is the same as was in Burning Crusade, nothing changed actually. Never gem for Hit past the special cap. That said, in BC 1 Hit was worth 40-50% of 1 Str, now it's even worse.
Given the fairly significant number of fights with some sort of targeted AOE component, has any analysis been given to including Enrage in the raid spec after the TG hit change gives us some free itemization to play with?
I haven't run Enrage in raids at all yet to determine just how many of the AOE effects that are out there will proc it, but I'd imagine that at least Sartharion and Malygos would have a good chance of generating some Enrage uptime.
Seeing as 3D Sarth (esp 10man) and 5min Malygos are likely the two most difficult achievement encounters in the game right now, any spec that improves dps just for these fights for a slight loss on some other fights seems valuable.
This build assumes that you aren't needing to run shouts or rampage, and that you can achieve the expertise cap or close to it without the dodge talent: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Like I said, I haven't tested enrage yet - I'd like to hear the results from anyone who has concerning uptime in Naxx/Sarth/Maly, and what kinds of raid encounters proc it (or don't). We're trying to figure out anything that might help with 3d Sarth10 speed, and this seems like it might.
See pages 4-6 for more discussion on the topic. General consensus seems to be that enrage is rarely if at all proccing from AoE raid effects. I could see it being useful for Sarth+3 as it is easy to take aggro and get hit from the many adds that spawn during the fight, and you might see some reasonable sort of uptime. Malygos I don't see it doing much.
Most of the evidence is anecdotal though, I haven't seen any extensive testing or WWS to clearly show what is and isn't proccing enrage.
Well I am currently sitting a little below 200HR and I never have a rage problem. I also keep up around ~3-4k DPS. Maybe its cause my AP is so high, not sure. But I just want to cap my yellows.
As if by magic managed to pickup some T7 legs which gives me the set bonus (seems tobe pretty good for the 2/3 fights I used it on, mobs immune to bleed are now even more annoying!) and alot of expertise - atleast until I maybe swap some rings I've completely got rid of WM (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) and i've got one point in imp execute for giggles.
Not tried this spec out yet, also need to test if the 4pc boosts execute damage at all (or if it leaves you with 5 rage).
One thing I was playing with was equiping a shield on the pull and swapping in my offhand as I move in to attack, this gives me 140AP for the first 30 seconds of the fight which isn't much but its certainly a fun 'use of mechanics'.
I went to heoric naxx the first time last night, and I noticed one thing: in more than one boss fight, the breakdown of my damage in recount showed me the deep wound damage takes the second biggest pie.
Granted, my gear is far from optimal at this stage, so I don't know if it is recount's bug, my gear problem or just good old RNG.
I went to heoric naxx the first time last night, and I noticed one thing: in more than one boss fight, the breakdown of my damage in recount showed me the deep wound damage takes the second biggest pie.
Granted, my gear is far from optimal at this stage, so I don't know if it is recount's bug, my gear problem or just good old RNG.
On a few fights with tricked-up mechanics (Thaddius, Loetheb), Deep Woulds is going to ticks for what seems like unbelievable amounts.
There have been plenty of info on this "rolling Deep Wound" here and other forums. When you get a fight like Loetheb and have high crit (I was 89% last week), you'll see monster Deep Wounds.
On some other fights that are mostly stationary (Kel'thuzad), you can see high numbers as well as you can basically park your toon and use slam when it procs (vs. a very mobile fight such as Sartherion with Drakes up).
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I went to heoric naxx the first time last night, and I noticed one thing: in more than one boss fight, the breakdown of my damage in recount showed me the deep wound damage takes the second biggest pie.
Granted, my gear is far from optimal at this stage, so I don't know if it is recount's bug, my gear problem or just good old RNG.
Your quite short of the special cap so I would imagine this would be the cause of this, since speccing into the 2 minute deathwish my specials have finally climbed over deep wounds as top damage on most fights (heroic sctrike is quite often top!); but loatheb, thaddius & malygos will always create massive DW ticks.
I went to heoric naxx the first time last night, and I noticed one thing: in more than one boss fight, the breakdown of my damage in recount showed me the deep wound damage takes the second biggest pie.
Granted, my gear is far from optimal at this stage, so I don't know if it is recount's bug, my gear problem or just good old RNG.
So far in my experience this has pretty much been the case. Deep wounds is a huge chunk of the damage I am doing, usually on par with heroic strike and white damage.
I have some WWS from last night showing a standard breakdown for a couple fights. I think even at higher gear levels you won't see this change.
I dont understand how some players treat the rage gaining and how they define rage starvation.
From my point of view since i belong to those players that abuse heroic strikes, rage is never enough. I cant understand why the HS is treated like 'if i can afford it i hit it' instead of 'i do everything possible to hit it more times'.
In TBC endgame raiding HS was quite frequently the best damage ability and the best performance was always when simply the HS were used more. In almost total endgame gear in TBC i could use HS on like every 1.5 attacks without inc damage to boost my rage. This is why i consider myself rage starved until the gear allows again such a frequent use of HS.
Just maintaining the normal cycle of BT WW means nothing. What will push you a level above is how many HS you can throw into. This is why the class scales the best, the harder you hit the more rage you gain the more you use HS. But the 'harder' can be replaced or enhanced by 'the more' or 'the faster'. The key point of those ratings can be shown only through spreadsheets and testing but since the RNG plays a way more obvious role now than in past and the current content is ridiculous i doubt that there will be again epic discussions or interest about reaching the absolute again.
I agree Arantis, I usually turn on HS whenever its lit up but I tend to prioritise WW/BT when mirror of truth and/or trinkets are up as they have more scope for higher damage on crits etc; basically I have no real rotation at the moment. I have power auras setup to monitor my procs and use abilities accordingly, with HS being my most used ability when my buffs are 'normal'.
Looking for data regarding these two trinkets and whats best for a fury warrior, which one will scale best with gear/raid buffs and why? stats atm is 4k ap, 36% crit, 10% hit + racial and about 8% static haste.
-Loatheb's Shadow, 84 crit, 670ap on use for 20 sec, 2 min CD. From normal naxx.
-Meteorite Whetstone, 77 crit, 444 haste for 10 sec chance on hit. From HC UP.
(tried to link from wowhead but didnt work)
Looking for data regarding these two trinkets and whats best for a fury warrior, which one will scale best with gear/raid buffs and why? stats atm is 4k ap, 36% crit, 10% hit + racial and about 8% static haste.
-Loatheb's Shadow, 84 crit, 670ap on use for 20 sec, 2 min CD. From normal naxx.
-Meteorite Whetstone, 77 crit, 444 haste for 10 sec chance on hit. From HC UP.
(tried to link from wowhead but didnt work)
This is not even debatable. Haste is the worst stat for us next to hit. ArP, Crit, and AP are all better. So you tell me...
Still, the Whetstone is a solid second slot trinket until you have the good fortune of looting the Shadow. Towards the end of BC I found my [Dragonspine Trophy] to be a useful swap on fights where I would run dry. This should have a similar offsetting effect. Of course, [Loatheb's Shadow] can also be tied to your Death Wish and its convenient 2 minute talented cooldown.
Originally Posted by MeCh
My spreadsheet says the sim is better, but the sim says the spreadsheet is better.
Arantis - I have a very similar experience - in full SWP epics I had all the rage I could ever want, but now I'm forced to constantly decide if I have the rage to HS without risking starving myself out of yellows and shutting off my flurry/proc momentum.
It seems like the next patch going to wreak havoc with the rotation, especially for movement heavy fights or when we have to upkeep a sunder stack - forcing more rage and GCD utilization decisions.
For instance - whenever HS procs Bloodsurge at the same time that WW and BT are coming off c/d, we'll be left with a choice: use Slam and push the core abilities back a GCD or likely lose the slam proc. Is using every single slam proc going to be worth losing GCD's on other abilties? Will it be worth using it immediately 100% of the time just to make sure the proc doesn't go unused?
Grossly oversimplified: will it be better to wind up with like 6 slams and 20 BT+WW's or like 10 slams and 18 BT+WW's?
The reason Dwounds is high on Loatheb is that you can achieve near 100% crit rates. DWounds does not roll, it simply just doesn't tick if you crit too fast, and waits to do its damage once it gets opportunity to. That's why you see big ticks there just because it hardly goes off.
On Thaddius, reason why it's so high is because of the mechanics of how DWounds derives its damage. I will talk about Damage Increasing Multipliers here or DIM's. These are things like Deathwish, Hysteria, Tricks of the trade, and gimicks like charge stacking on Thaddius and power spark in Malygos. DWounds derives itself from weapon damage on the character sheet. This weapon damage is affected by all DIM's. DWounds is also its own damage, which is also affected by all DIM's. Essentially, Dwounds double dips into all DIM's, and scales by 2(DIM) instead of 1(DIM) because its derived initially from your damage range.
This is not even debatable. Haste is the worst stat for us next to hit. ArP, Crit, and AP are all better. So you tell me...
84 crit > 77crit.
670AP > 444 Haste
This is true, I'm using [Mark of Norgannon] myself and I'm the least impressed. I took it in the hope that blizzard stays true to its word and make haste for melee a little more worthwhile.
However depending on your stats ofc, haste is very close to ArP, and hit falls behind if you are at 250ish + hit
The reason Dwounds is high on Loatheb is that you can achieve near 100% crit rates. DWounds does not roll, it simply just doesn't tick if you crit too fast, and waits to do its damage once it gets opportunity to. That's why you see big ticks there just because it hardly goes off.
I don't post much on here, more trolling but can I just butt in and say that this is completely wrong?
3.02 changed deep wounds to its current state (ie ticking once a second for 6 seconds instead of once every 3 seconds for 12 seconds, yay blizzard) and fixed the not ticking bug
It now rolls in the exact same way as Ignite, which is why it's so damn powerful atm
To steal an example off wowwiki (a bit taboo i know but i'd rather not do the exact same thing someone's already done):
Example) Your average MH weapon damage is 100, meaning Deep Wounds will deal 48 damage with 3 ranks per application.
0 seconds: You land a critical attack.
1 second: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage.
2 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage.
3 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage. You land another critical attack. DW duration is reset to 6 seconds and the new damage is the remaining 24 + 48.
4 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 12 damage.
5 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 12 damage. You land another critical attack. DW duration is reset and the new damage is 72 - 24 + 48 = 96
6-11 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 16 damage.
Quick question from me now that's out of the way, finally got my hands on Armageddon last night, which way around would you folks recommend, my other weapon is that fugly expertise stick the jawbone
Atm it's looking like Jawbone mainhand, but i'm tempted to swap them around simply for the aesthetics (silly i know but it looks SO stupid having armageddon in my left hand) will it make much of a difference as they're fairly similar or would it cut a significant amount off my DPS and rage generation?
Last edited by Swiftstrike : 12/31/08 at 5:55 AM.
Reason: Added question
Quick question from me now that's out of the way, finally got my hands on Armageddon last night, which way around would you folks recommend, my other weapon is that fugly expertise stick the jawbone
Atm it's looking like Jawbone mainhand, but i'm tempted to swap them around simply for the aesthetics (silly i know but it looks SO stupid having armageddon in my left hand) will it make much of a difference as they're fairly similar or would it cut a significant amount off my DPS and rage generation?
With the slow speed of it, The Jawbone is probably better for you in the MH (also, if people don't know, weightstones still work on maces while sharpening stones do not work for axes/swords).
I have BoH and Jawbone and most number-crunching I've done shows Jawbone beating BoH by .5 to 1 DPS. It seems odd but I've used it that way in a raid and didn't notice much of a change. But I have Massacre on Jawbone and Bezerking on BoH so I use Jawbone on the OH for now.
Don't want to spend the gold/use mats to enchant Bezerking on the Jawbone as I hope to DW BoHs one day.
Also, there was some discussion on Jawbone earlier in the thread.
Originally Posted by Jootson
Just wondering what you guys do at 20% in terms of priority for WW/BT/Execute
Keep your DPS rotation up as close to normal. Use BT and WW when up, Slam when Bloodsurge procs. Instead of using Heroic Strike, use Execute as your rage dump when above 50 rage.
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Example) Your average MH weapon damage is 100, meaning Deep Wounds will deal 48 damage with 3 ranks per application.
0 seconds: You land a critical attack.
1 second: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage.
2 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage.
3 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage. You land another critical attack. DW duration is reset to 6 seconds and the new damage is the remaining 24 + 48.
4 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 12 damage.
5 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 12 damage. You land another critical attack. DW duration is reset and the new damage is 72 - 24 + 48 = 96
6-11 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 16 damage.
This does not disagree with what landsoul said. This is NOT "rolling". No character ability in the game currently "rolls" because it was a broken and OP mechanic. (Actually the malygos drakes' dot is a rolling ability.) Rolling ignites existed in the days of original naxx, when you would stack mages for patchwerk because their damage scaled insanely as long as the ignite stack was kept up. The way Deep Wounds works now, damage is neither created or destroyed (the law of conservation of damage), it is simply pushed back as more is queued up. If deep wounds rolled, the above timetable would look like this:
Example) Your average MH weapon damage is 100, meaning Deep Wounds will deal 48 damage with 3 ranks per application.
0 seconds: You land a critical attack.
1 second: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage.
2 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage.
3 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 8 damage. You land another critical attack. DW duration is reset to 6 seconds and the new damage is the original 48 + another 48.
4 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 16 damage.
5 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 16 damage. You land another critical attack. DW duration is reset and the new damage is 48+ 48 + 48 = 144
6-11 seconds: Deep Wounds deals 24 damage.
Damage is "created" from nowhere, and allowing deep wounds to drop and lose your stack at any point would be a devestating loss to your dps. Just to clarify: This is NOT how deep wounds works! It is simply what landsoul means when he talks about "rolling".
Ah right, the way deep wounds works now is how i always referred to ignite on my mage for the short amount of time i played him pre-tbc after they fixed the one raid debuff hilarity and never stopped
I thought what landsoul was describing was the old version, where you could chain crit and never see a deep wounds tick...shortly followed by a faceslam to the keyboard
I was tempted by the Armageddon/runeblade combo, but losing the expertise from the Jawbone would drop me down a lot on expertise, and the rest of my gear currently isn't good enough to make it up elsewhere, would the 2.5% odd crit the runeblade gives balance it out or is it not worth it
Silly me, my other new toys mean i'm actually almost exactly the amount of expertise over the cap that jawbone gives me, runeblade it is
You both missed what Landsoul said *sigh*. Deep Wounds does not strictly tick every second. It ticks every second after the last crit, starting with 1s after the last crit. If you crit more than once per second, you won't see any ticks of Deep Wounds. That's what Landsoul said, and that is how it works.
rage starvation - yes i aggree in that a button/attack should be lit up at all times. when normall dpsing i dont think i ever run out of rage i might alternate 1 attack off and on from heroic strike but fully buffed procs slam alot. I rarely run out of rage. the only thing that is annoying on my rotations is sometimes i have to sunder ( if i get out rolled by the other warrior ) and im the only warrior between 2 that carries imp shouts, so im commanding bitch :/
and someone said about executes - i spam execute to the death, but im thinking my gear is gaining on that and BT might be more benefitial when its up. But i have not tested this i have tomorrow off i think i might test that out tomorrow.
alot of people talk about rotations, this is how you do this and that, sounds like dpsing is scripted. but personally its all 100% situational and personal/gear based imo.
probably in tank gear if you armory me as my dps gear is gaining dust fast with the extinction of tanks on our server the beast still growls within tho.
12/29/08, 3:58 PM
the beast still growls within tho.
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