Lantador, according to your WoL on Saurfang, your Rends did 21900 damage. The whole fight took4m23s, which boils down to 77 DPS.
I assume you don't bother to rend < 20%, where you use the spare GCD's to execute. Suppose you change stance at full rage, which drops you to 25 rage, you get a heroic strike in that doesn't crit (it happens!) and you rend. You're sitting at 0 rage. Worst case: you're waiting for your offhand to swing again, which could almost take 3 seconds, and even a bloodrage can't give you rage needed to do the normal stuff instantly again (HS + [BT / WW]) after switching back to zerker stance.

Have you ever had such a scenario happen for you where your next Bloodthirst/Whirlwind got pushed back a split second, or you couldn't keep Heroic Strike queued, right after all the stance dancing?

Don't get me wrong: 77 DPS increase is better then 0 DPS increase, and wasting the GCD's, but i can't help feeling a bit uneasy about that potential rage starved moments, which could ultimately amount to losing more DPS then you'd gain from rending.

I'm the one sundering in my raid as we have no warrior beside me, and I'm only sundering when I have free GCD, going for straight 5x sunders will just make the procs when initiating the fight wasted, so going recklessness/deathwish in the beginning is not a problem. But you may be right for the trinket switch part, although gimping your own DPS for the 30 first seconds would even out the raid dps buff that straight 5x sunder provides. I'dd rather keep with the normal rotation and sunder on free GCDs.

Also why would you ever cleave beasts on saurfang ? If they are about to pop I simply save WW for 1 or 2 GCDs later, otherwise I don't see a reason to bother cleaving it and decreasing our DPS on saurfang just to apply deep wounds on 1 or 2 more targets, with a risk to ragestarve.

By switching your trinket about 20 seconds before combat, you can get off 5 sunders straight and start your rotation with your trinkets popping relatively soon. 5 suckers(I so punny) will take 5x1.5=7.5 seconds before you can start your rotation. However, instead of applying them immediately your raid will lose lose out on a 25% bonus damage for all your physical damage for about 5 seconds, 20% for about 6 seconds, 15% 7, 10% 11, 5% 13. These are rough estimates on time intervals, but this is also assuming gimping your possible DPS because I'm negating the slam procs.

In my opinion you should use your free GCDs to refresh Sunder, but apply it immediately. I've tried both ways myself(Our warrior tank wasn't there at the moment) and found spamming it ASAP and using free GCDs to refresh just feels better too.

As for the saurfang question, but cleave/whirlwind the mobs, you don't lose any DPS on the whirlwind and as state above, if your ranged can pick them up quick enough, it only buffs your DPS because you have more chances at the 2p to proc. Cleaving for 1-2 times will also probably be overwritten by your 2p proc'ing more since its such a small DPS loss over heroic strike in that situation. I wouldn't put down the whirlwind, but cleaving is a personal preference that I just don't prefer but can see the logic behind.

I just want to point out that there's a difference between multiple target damage and aoe damage. They'll take hugely decreased damage from conescrate, volley, blizzard, and the like, but whirlwind and cleave since they hit a specific number of targets will deal their normal damage to the adds.


I was actually wondering how fury warriors keep dps up in saurfang. I guess most guilds have a "wait before using a multitarget attack" rule, whereas mine just says "If it hits more than one target don't cast it" to avoid any potential fuckups. I had actually been considering getting an arms dualspec (as I did pick up dual spec fury, to have a cleave spec, but I haven't exactly cared for the performance of it compared to my primary spec. I find being able to heroic strike every time seems to give me more dps than cleaving every 3rd swing instead) just for this fight.

Really? I know that there is some mechanic for differentiating AoE damage and multi-target damage, because it has come up on other fights. I'll admit my warrior is my alt and I haven't got him into a successful ICC yet, and was thinking ahead regarding that. However when I'm tanking it on my Paladin we would regularly see DPS mistiming their cleave abilities and pulling the beasts, that was why we said stop any multi target hitting at all.

This raises the question instead of how the hell are the melee pulling the adds back (like Ive seen add get hit, start running to range who hit it, then turn around and go after the melee instead) when the melee have that kind of damage reduction. I'm starting to think the trouble we were having that week was more from one griefer trying to wipe us than anything else, if that is how it's actually figured.

Yes really and as far as the pulling of the beasts. Threat is a cruel Mistress

No, WW and cleave are subject to the penalty. I never cleave the adds, but I will hit WW and it never lands for more than 200-300 on the adds.

Definitely wrong. like others said, its about 200-300 damage max. The reason I WW over Cleave (i usually delay a bit anyway, more about that below) is that cleave is a little to unpredictable for me. Even with a swing timer, i cant always time it right and dont want to aggro if i swing too early. I can wait and hit WW when i know the adds have ranged aggro.

I would agree that not everyone should do it, but it will be a dps increase if you can get more 2pt10 procs. Just watch out with your WW, i think you can actually hit the adds a split second before they appear with some server lag. Happened to me when i was tanking and wanted to Thunder Clap before they came out, I couldnt see them, but i definitely hit them.

In theory yes, switching trinket 20 seconds before the fight should do it, but when I tried it last week, it seemed DBW doesn't take 30 sec to be ready but the whole 1min30 internal cooldown before it can proc again. WFS was proccing after thoes 30 seconds tho, so I guess it's DBW not working the way it's supposed to.

Using WW and cleave at all during the add phase is still very risky, dps increase or not. In my experience you still have to wait a few seconds at least until ranged get aggro, or WW will pull them. And on heroic mode, we haven't been able to beat him when we get add bites.

Is there an addon which shows the 2xBloodsurge proc? After getting 4 parts i noticed BloodSurge addon only works for normal proc and it shows nothing for double. Does anyone know a tool which alerts for both and (even better) distinguishes them so i can instantly now if its double?