Mordenthal

So am I right in thinking the best option for a TG warr will be to stack +hit gems until you reach the 361 soft cap?

 

Lolli

so as far as tg dps is concerned, would it be best to enchant both with berserking, massacre or one of each ?. As far as I understand, the ap loss along with uptime of berserking calculates to less benefit than massacre would (something like 75 ap avg.). What is the ppm mechanic discrepancy mentioned before that makes berserking best ?

 

• Morsexy

I think we need to make this a priority to get solved. I unfortunately didn't have the mats to get my offhand enchanted with Berserking, I put massacre on it. My gut feeling was Massacre would be better since I was assuming at a max .75 PPM from the offhand

We need to establish several things concretely. Not what Wowhead says or state what we think as fact.

1. Does AttT actually only give you ((12,000*.75)\ 180 ) * 3 effectively rendering berserking to ~350 attack power?
2. Mongoose and Berserking are the same exact PPM?
3. Does Bers refresh, or give two buffs. If two are given, and mongoose PPM is the same for offhand, roughly 50% of MH procs if I remember.

Berserking needs to be up 19 seconds ( if it is modified by AttT ) from the offhand for a 1.2 PPM to be better than Massacre.

 

fatl

I would agree that in most cases Relentless would be a better choice but I would also argue that it is very gear dependent. If you can get good socket bonus' from blue slots then I would recommend using Chaotic to pick up the bonus.

 

Shha

I can consider helping with thinktank in few days, but right now my life is pretty hectic O_o. If the idea is still around in a week or so, Ill gladly help.

 

Maykel

Does the 25% armor decrease from Berserking influence AttT? Does anyone know this for sure?
Haven't been able to actually see if it does and I haven't seen any reports yet it actually does, it's mostly speculation it does. I'm not sure (I just don't know since I never payed attention to it) if Sunder Armor or Devotion Aura influence AttT. So what it comes down to is that I'm wondering if AttT gets calculated on buffs/debuffs you have or if it only gets calculated on your gear.

My apologies if this has been answered somewhere else yet, I just haven't been able to find the information on it.

 

DarkS

This might be true for all warriors except for Jewelcrafter's. You can put the Prismatic Jewelcrafters gems (up to 3) on blue sockets because they counts as any of the colors. This really helps avoiding the mix DPS/STA gems needed for metagems

 

Khab

I wonder there are the good old days of Warrior Theory Crafting forum where ppl care and post maths/thought . I guess they all busy with RL, busy with guilds for new expan or just dont care to min/max for this easy and early content.


But still there's some good things on the table, let's focus back to the discussion :


Weapon Speed :

You wanna go Slow 2H MH/Anything here as long as it's 2H and its have good DPS/stats.

Reason : there's Weapon normalization for instant warrior skills.
The only ability that require Slow weapon speed to have good scaling is Heroic Strike and Slam which is not Instant (slam is instant because of bloodsurge buff, the ability itself is not instant cast)
Bloodthirst scale base on your AP, so SLOW or FAST doest matter because it doesn't scale with your weapon dmg.

Here is the tricky part : WW is instant.
You can say Slow weapon got better weapon dmg, but most of your dmg come from AP since your have some where near 5k AP raid buff now.
Your 5K AP with 3.3 speed normalization bring you almost 1200 Weapon dmg, the different of a slow 2H weapon and a fast 2H weapon is somewhere around 50.
Your OH have -25% dmg penalty so the different bettwen OH WW dmg from Slow 2H and Fast 2H with hardly be noticeable

Basicly just chose a good OH with nice DPS and good stats (aka : str, alot of Crit, Hit, AP ......., just stay away from too much Agi, Armor Pen, Haste)
But you might wanna stay away from faster than 3.2 speed OH, because that will hurt your Flurry uptime.

Sumary OH can be somewhere 3.2~3.7, dont worry too much about waiting to loot a slow OH weapon with your DKP.


Chants :

Berserker chants is good, but it dont stack. You might want Berserker for your MH but 110AP is good to go too and it way cheaper.

What i don't like about Procing chants now is TG Warrior RAGE is too spiky. You dont want too many proc and end up 1 Swing full rage and you stay that way for awhile . And sometime you just dont have rage to Heroic Strike.
Constant flow of Heroic strike is way better for your DPS then some spiky rage.
I Surgest 2X 110AP, or Exutioner for MH(old,cheap but still got some where the same benifit as 110AP as long as you still have somewhere 10% Armor pen left)

Stats/gear :

I must do alot more test but i guess there's some sheet lying around here and there already. Let's keep it simple and good for gemming :

Pick every good Plate/Leather 80 Epic DPS gear that you can get from Heroics, Naxx10, Naxx25, OS10/25, Malygos10/25 and badges gear

After start to gem for :

Hit cap which i believe to be 10% with 3/3 precision
Expertise cap which is 4% with 2/2 Weapon mastery
Crit until you got 30% crit unbuff in zerker. You will need those Crit for your Flurry and the stacking of Deep Wound.

After that everything back to good old pure STR gems. But don't believe me about this point of pure STR gem. I still hesitage for myself about After Good Attack table (no dodge no yellow missed, no diminishing Crit%) and good percent of Crit to maintain somewhere 85~90% Flurry what should Warriors do.

There's alot of things on my mind :

Get Haste. Shammy totem give us 1.16*1.04 haste which is around 1.2064 (not 1.2 as is 16%+4% flat add) And Flurry give us 1.25 which mean the total is 1.508 haste. But i still worry about too much haste will make Flurry uptime goes down, and when you have BL + alot of haste, your Flurry uptime will be bad.

Get Armour Pen. I'm pretty sure this option will be viable later on when we have T8 or T9 gears, but let's leave it now, we're at T7.

Get more HIT. As long as we're not HS on more than 50% of our MH Swing, more Hit is still viable Option

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Yazuka

Berserking enchant does stack and gives 880 AP. Having both procs up i lose 100 AP through armored to the teeth with having 12085 Armor

 

Sabrewarrior

When you lose 25% armour the second time, is it 25% of the 75% or is it 25%+25% leading to a 50% armour loss? also berserking seems like an enchant that actually scales backwards as we get better gear making massacre and exec more and more useful. exec will be king with high arp rating at the end of the day anyway. would be interesting to see if exec counts after arp rating or before.

 

Crunck

I still see a lot of speculative builds with 5/5 in commanding presence for the BS buff. with the AP gain compared to imp BOM being so miniscule, i see these as wasted points. certain fights in wotlk raid content (im thinking gluth here specifically, but aoe packs in general) would benefit from imp cleave and howl signifcantly over the stam buff from CS, which after imp BOM becomes the next logical step.

I'm also considering changing my glyph from increased BS duration because from my POV i'd rather a pallie burn a ocnsumable for a 15 min buff than me ditch rage in a 3 min buff, hell, keep up CS instead, free sta is always nice.

first post btw, hi all.

 

Switz

I have a quick addition to the gem discussion that you may or may not find useful. I have gemmed my Nesingwary 4000 with an Enchanted Tear (+6 all stats, limit 1 in your gear, matches any socket). The reason I did this is it 1) provides the socket bonus of 8 AP and 2) by itself fulfills the 1R1Y1B requirement of Relentless Earthsiege Diamond. I may find later that this won't be the best option, but in my initial gearing I am finding myself replacing much of my gear with socketless replacements. Getting your blue match out of the way with a gem that gives 6 strength and 6 agility is pretty useful in my opinion.

 

Khab

Mob Modified Armour = ( Mob Armour - Sunder - CoR/FF ) * ( 1 - Armour Pen Rating%) - 830 from Executioner proc


exc count after Armour Pen rating . That's why i said good old Exc will work fine if u still have some where 10% Armour pen rating

On Side note, if you have 0 Armour Pen Rating. Exc still not so bad

Bosses have 13083 Armour
Sunder and FF Bring it down to 7898 Armour it's 34.15% Dmg Reduction
Exc proc bring it down to 7068 and it's 31.7% DR

So Exc give you somewhere 2.5% dmg even without any Armour Pen Rating. If you have some where 10% Armour pen you get somewhere near 3~3.5% Benifit from Exc Proc

Thought?

Btw my bad about Berserking, but still i don't like that chant really.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Symphonia

This is mostly true for 25 mans, but you aren't guaranteed to have a paladin with imp might in 10 mans. And even if you do have a paladin with imp might, they might also have kings, meaning you should shout if you want kings. Imp cleave damage gain is too minuscule (especially for the amount of boss fights you actually use cleave) to warrant giving up utility in 10 mans, at least in my opinion.

 

Oliria

I just started 25 man Naxx yesterday - and so far we cleared 3 wings. we couldn't really get past Patchwerk cause of tankgear and the amount of healers we brought.. anyway, I found fury to be very powerful but arms seems to lack behind alot. Yes I tried both yesterday, arms 1 wing, fury the 2 others.

I find this a little depressing, because arms is so much more fun atm - reaktive abilities and an interesting rotation. I know this i a fury discussion but there is no arms discussion atm (and I still need a few replies to actually be able to start one myself) but have anyone had any luck with arms raiding?

Can arms compete atm? or is fury just a "must specc"

 

Ithelia

Personally after having tried both, once you get good enough gear for fury (soft hitcap, 30 crit in zerk unbuffed, decent strength etc.) there is a very small window, extremely small, in which arms is competetive with fury atm. Even though arms might provide a "funnier" rotation, I still dislike having to rely on procs as much as you do with arms spec. Blizzard have basically designed fury to now be the real highend dps spec in pve raids. However we will always see a few people who just can't get away from the classic arms tree but overall, fury is your spec in pve.

 

Emeraude

Even if you have a Paladin on Blessing of Might duty with Imp BoM, you still want 5/5 Commanding Presence for Commanding Shout.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

 

Daronsk

I don't see putting the points into imp cleave over commanding presence as very usefull at least in the content that is open at the moment. The extra health from commanding shout vs imp buff is quite useful especially since you should be range of the tank with it. I would argue that perhaps taking one point out of commanding presence for piercing howl might be worth it, as the the aoe snare would be useful in several fights versus the 5% more health to commanding shout.

Something that I think we should start looking into is: how good is enrage for our dps? Their are plenty of fights with aoe damage or raid damage of some sort and we can anticipate that its not a trend thats going away. Add to this that high end gear now is VERY heavy in hit and expertise and you end up in a situation where taking points out of precision or weapon mastery may be beneficial as extra hit/expertise past cap is niegh useless.

So the issues to address are these:

1 pt in enrage > 32 hit rating past cap?
1 pt in enrage > 1 pt in improved execute?

Now we can only do this on a case to case basis for bosses obviously as Patchwork will have 0% uptime for enrage but loatheb may be >50% uptime. Also, just how good is imp execute and does it beat 1 pt in enrage on the average (or even on specific boss encounters that are dps checks). I think if your concentration is on 25 man raids dropping a point in rampage makes this discussion immediatly relevent even for those not reaching and breaking the hit/expertise soft caps.

Edit:
on the Beserking versus Massacre issue...
Couldn't we just model this as a simple uptime% vs armor graph by doing the following.

Beserking losses the following ap due to Attt:
X - your armor
(X / 4) * 3/180 = X / 240

So we can make the formula with Y - %uptime of beserking...
110 < 400Y - X/240
to show when beserking would be better then massacre. Ohh and this simplifies to...
Y > [110 + (X/240)] / 400
Which would be easy to plot and figure out especially if we can get some solid uptime% numbers for MH beserking and OH beserking.

 

• landsoul

@ armor penetration:

With mid level Naxx25 gear and max raid buffs. I inflated my AP values using my spreadsheet. A point of ArP matched a point in Strength at ~12850 buffed attack power. I then added a fake 750 ArP rating to the same gear and ArP matched STR at ~9990 buffed attack power. You should avoid Armor penetration items at this point unless they are on a really sexy piece. One exception would be The [Grim Toll] trinket just because it has an insanely massive amount of ArP, [Aged Winter Cloak] because the alternatives have haste, which is worse, or the 25 man Malygos neck quest reward.

@ haste

We all know that haste rating multiplies by every other differing speed increase across the board. One thinks that this does many things: provides increasing returns to attack speed. True. Increases the frequency of Deep Wounds. True. May be a great stat at super high gear levels. Increases the frequency of our heroic strikes. Only true if you heroic strike 100% of the time. Again, performing the same test using armor penetration, Haste matched STR at ~17750 buffed attack power.

The key to all of this is that every time you increase one stat, it also increases the value of each point of strength. Strength does not have static worth. Strength is our juice. It is our koolaid in our hot summer days.



Improved Windfury adds 4% to its 16% to match with Icy talons to 20%, AFAIK. We are all aware of multiplicative effects in wow, but does anyone have any data that encourages Imp WF being 20.64%?

 

Saizul

How important is execute as a fury warrior?

<20% range, is it understood that you should execute on every gcd?

Along these lines:
How valuable is imp execute, the talent?
Is it worthwhile to glyph for execute, especially considering the limited options for an actual DPS increase as a fury warrior?
Should recklessness, deathwish, or trinkets be used during this execute range, or are they more valuable elsewhere?

I apologize for just adding more questions, but I am making the switch to a warrior from mage with wotlk and trying to get my feet on the ground. There is surprisingly little good factual information versus what I am used to seeing in the mage forums, so hopefully I can start contributing instead of adding to the problem soon. =P

Thanks!

 

Daronsk

Bt will do more damage then execute at the following ap levels (with modifiers)
6753ap (no glyph, 0/0 imp execute)
8020ap (glyph, 0/0 imp execute)
8273ap (glpyh, 1/2 imp execute)
8653ap (glpyh, 2/2 imp execute)

I'd say the conventional wisdom at this point would be to add the execute glpyh and spam execute during the <20% range as I doubt 8K ap will be broken without some procs and cooldowns line up. This is only a hard and fast rule when your weapon speed is sub 1.5seconds for auto swings as then your not wasting GCD's. Don't forget heroic throw either as its a good way to fill a GCD that otherwise could get wasted because your auto swings both missed or didn't generate sufficient rage.

 

Crunck

In which case it will be a preference, depending on the number of 10/25 man raids you participate in; I personally don't see myself doing many more 10 man raids, for example. Piercing Howl seems too good a utility snare for trash packs to pass up, even if it does mean a sacrifice of a godly 5% of Commanding Shout.

Edit: "many more 10 man raids, for example" - not 25!

 

• LodeRunner

To clarify for the sake of others, this comparison illustrates damage from a Bloodthirst vs damage from a 30 rage Execute. Most executes will not be 30 rage.

 

Nexx

I wouldn't remove the point in rampage, because the 45 yard limit can be reached (4H, Adds on Thad). Removing the point would also hurt your raid in 10 mans unless you're assuming that you always carry a feral druid. So rather safe than sorry I'd just keep the point there.

Now I've been playing around with trying a couple of PvE builds, but given our tanking shortage -- it's been hard for me to test them.

18/51 is pretty much the standard build, but the last 4 points can be put anywhere.

This leaves the following talents possibilities to put those last 4 points:
Enrage (5)
Intensify Rage (3)
Improved Execute (2)
Furious Attacks (2)
Heroic Fury (1)
Anger Management (1)

I'm going to write down the list of current wrath bosses and try to create an approximate uptime for Enrage. If you want to provide input on the tuning please comment. I'll try to run a WWS and see if I can gauge Enrage uptime that way next Naxx clear I do or if someone has one with the enrage talent.

Malygos - 15% (breaths, vortex)
Sartharion - 10% (adds, probably higher with more drakes up)
Stone Watcher - 10% (AoE)
Noth - 15% (adds, curse, adds aoe)
Heigan - 20% (disease)
Loatheb - 30% (Deathbloom, ID)
Raz - 10% (Shout)
Gothik - 5% on Living, 10% on Dead (Adds) [Does the AoE stat debuff trigger it?]
4H - 45% (Marks, Meteor, Spells)
Anub - 10% (Critters, Impale)
Faerlina - 10% (AoEs)
Maexxna - 10% (Adds)
Patchwerk - 0% (Could the slime trigger it?)
Grobbulus - 5% (Adds, Mutating - You probably couldn't dps that much if it even triggers)
Gluth - 5% (Decimate, Adds)
Thaddius - 20% (Mini Boss, Chain Lightning)
Sapphiron - 80% (AoE Pulse, Blizzard)
KT - 5% (Frost Bolt, Frost Blast)

 

Daronsk

Good point on the range restriction, but I think the average fight will have most ranged/melee within 45 yards. I'll respec to have at least a point in enrage next week for our naxx clear and should hopefully be able to bring some numbers to this discussion. Just from a WWS by counting the times that enrage procs and dividing through by the length of the boss fight we could get a rough %uptime within a couple weeks. Of course this number will be skewed downwards if only WWS is used as refreshing procs won't be counted(I think thats how WWS records them). However, with the low uptimes that your predicting to begin with it should be fairly accurate.

Formula:
Enrage count in boss attempt * 12 / Length of fight(in seconds) = % uptime.