Whirlwind eats one recklessness charge per target it hits. So if you hit one target (regardless of 2H or DW 2H) it takes one charge. A side note: when AEing, you want your whirlwind to use the last charge of recklessness, as it will crit on all the targets you hit but only take up that last charge.

Another angle:

Assuming

10 mintue fight
2.75 swing speed
50% crit rate.

We have 465 chances to proc Bloodsurge. 46.5 procs.

46.5x5400 = 251,100 potential slam damage.

Splitting the delay evenly between BT and WW

46.5/2 = 23.25

Delaying 23.25 WWs and BT by 1 gcd =

WWs = 1,333x23.25 = 30,992 dmg lost
BTs = 1,575*23.25 = 36,619 dmg lost.

Splitting the damage lost a bit more fairly since we get more BTs in than we do WWs and thus will delay it more often.

lost dmg = (dmg lost per 1.5s delay)*(number of 1.5s delays)
WW = 1,333*18.6 = 24,794 dmg lost
BT = 1,575*27.9 = 43,942 dmg lost.

This is as bad as it gets. Clearly slamming every proc chance is a huge win even when have to delay WW or BT every times.

But from the previous post we know that only about 26 of those 46.5 BS crits will be where we need to make a delay decision. So lets assume we delay every one of those 26.

Splitting those proportionally amongst BT and WW we get

BT = 1,575*15.6 = 24,570 lost BT damage
WW = 1,333*10.4 = 13,863 lost WW damage.

Given the 1% chance at back to back to bloodsurge procs that means only .26 (on average) of those "delays" will see a second BS proc.

So we are losing over 38K damage with the potential gain of .26 of a slam or roughly 1,350 damage.

But....and there's always a but isn't there?

The only way you can get a 100% accurate picture of this problem is create a simulator and model it. Math thrown together on the back of a napkin or on a web forum can be close enough to say we are chasing the proverbial needle in a haystack and it's just not worth worrying about. But the reality is the problem is too complex to solve without modeling it.

For instance given a 50% melee crit rate over the course of millions of attacks you'll find the BT and WW proc Bloodsurge almost exactly 10% of the time. But what's virtually impossible to take into account in spreadsheet or napkin math are mechanics like Slam reseting your swing timers. This is going to impact the number of heroic strikes you get in. Sure 10% of them will proc Bloodsurge given a large enough sample but even over a 10 minute fight it's doubtful you'll get in as many heroic strikes as I used in my calculations. Along these lines are things like other procs. When you have a crit trinket proc and it stacks with a haste proc and you get a weapon enchant proc and a meta gem proc... Spreadsheets just aren't good tools for dealing with situations like this.

You're right about the notes.

So we'll get 93 BS procs per 10 minutes. And the overall chance at back to back procs is 4%, not 1%. and the b2b2b chance is .8% instead of .1%.

But we still only have something like 13 decision points per minute (guesstimate given the number of HS's is hard to nail down accurately) of which only 4% will actually see a back to back proc.

Look at it this way. Of every 100 BT or WWs delayed when we face that decision, 96 of them are going to be wasted.

It's just not worth worrying about. If you want to compensate for it in a spreadsheet just assume 4% of your Bloodsurge procs are going to go to waste. In other words use a 19.2% proc rate for Bloodsurge instead of a 20% one.

While I agree with your overall message that it's going to be difficult to analyze/optimize, your estimate for overlapping bloodsurges is an order of magnitude off. Assuming your analysis, you would need to subtract the 4% from the 20%, leaving 16%. Assume that you whirlwind and it proc's bloodsurge, but you are already using Bloodthirst for your next GCD. There's a independent 20% chance that your Bloodthirst will also proc bloodsurge. Therefore, there is a 20% chance that your proc will overlap and be wasted. That takes your 20% to 16%.

While it's fun to theorycraft the new Bloodsurge, the math is fuzzy as hell and I really think we should keep our napkin math to ourselves. I'm frankly of the opinion that it's not going to make a huge difference in our final numbers assuming we use the abilities and manage rage. I honestly prefer the existing design where I only need to pay attention for a Bloodsurge once every 5 seconds.

I don't think bloodsurge will work for off-hand WW. Deep wounds doesn't proc off of OH WW crits. Someone needs to look at it on PTR. Hit 100 WW's and record if your get a bloodsurge proc off of each WW. Determine if you get close to 40 surge procs or 20 surge procs. If I have time I might go test this out.

I don't really know too many that can't wait for the upcoming change from a PvE perspective. All the change did was slightly improve Fury for PvP and just make PvE more chaotic just to get similar results as to what we are getting now.

Yes it does. It procs offhand deep wounds on an offhand crit just like expected. (However, if you get double crit on ww, only the offhand deep wounds gets applied)

Astonishingly they do. I would have never thought. I swore I checked it in the beta. Allright, so then we do a little math to determine the differing chances to get wounds form main or off range using the crit chance of whirlwind.

chance both will crit = (main hand chance) * (off hand chance)
chance only main will crit = (main hand chance) * (1 - off hand chance)
chance only off will crit = (off hand chance) * (1 - main hand chance)

So then, you get main hand wounds from only when main crits, and offhand wounds when both or only off hand crits.

Now after playing on the current PTR for a while, practicing rotations and recording relationships between a full rotation and whirlwind in general, I can definitely say that there is extremely little chance that Slam can proc off of both hits of WW. I did 200 WW hits, and got 15 Slam! procs. I'd like to know if anyone gets any similar results.

It is my understanding that Hysteria adds 20% to the base damage that you deal, meaning you actually get more from it on critical strikes then you would from normal hits. 20% damage increase when factored with Impale and CSD turns into 24.6% increased damage on a crit.

This would turn your 13800 Execute into a 17194 Execute with Hysteria active.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Has anyone tested if Bloodsurge - Whirlwind works similarly to how recklessness charge usage does?
E.g. 1 enemy hit = 1 chance (1 charge used), 2 enemies hit = 2 chances (2 charges used), and so on

This would give you a very high likelihood of a slam! proc if you're able to position to WW multiple targets on the fights where this is possible, and might change the way you'd use the rotation on these fights. The question was asked on page 18, but I didn't see any answers there.

[edit: also, Landsoul's numbers would indicate that it really is a 20% chance on CRIT, not on hit like the notes say, unless he was very unlucky. That's disturbing, because it would mean that the proc rate is outright lower.]

[edit again: Natural is asking the same question I am - I was confused by terminology. By 200 WW hits, I thought Landsoul meant 200 applications of WW, not 100 applications with 2 hits/application. Be good to know if 2+ enemies changes the procrate]

Landsoul was attempting to answer the question: Is bloodsurge 20% chance on whirlwind use? Or 20% chance on each whirlwind hit?

He tested 200 hits (100 uses) probably against a target dummy. If it's 20% per whirlwind use, we would expect ~20 bloodsurges. If it's 20% per whirlwind hit, we would expect ~40 bloodsurges. His test resulted in 15 which points to 20% per whirlwind use.

It's still not clear to me if Bloodsurge is proc'ing off of the ability or the mainhand-only hit. The only way to figure this out would be to run an extended test against multiple targets.

Sorry to barge in from the Arms thread but I was intrigued by this question, ended up with 47 in 200 Whirlwinds (400 hits).

There are 5 dummies in theramore cloe enough together

You mean the ones that the NPC's are hitting outside the barracks?

Yea they work too - they are lvl 1, so you dont miss etc either.

If you use a swing timer you can delay the WW to coincide with a Heroic Strike, properly abusing the last charge of Recklessness.

What mod are you using? I've used quartz in the past (does it now show MH only?) but it seems to be stumped by titans grip, currently I just rely on animations/sounds to get a rough idea of swings.

Borelock: Yes, TG specced, using Demise and Skull-Clad.

Any one been on the ptr to see what the new reduced armor penalty is on berserking?

Unfortunately that's what I've been using as well (intuition) - I've not made a point to get quartz or see if there is a working contemporary. Last I used Quartz it was resetting swing timers for using slam, so I don't know what's good now.

When I went on yesterday the penalty was still 25%. PTRs are offline for a new build atm, so maybe it'll show up in that.

EDIT: Just refreshed MMO-Champ and they have new patch notes for latest build.

Enchanting

* Enchant Weapon- Berserking now reduces your armor by 5%. (Down from 25%)

Has anyone done any math regarding the 4pc t7 bonus for fury? I will try it out myself when i get 4 pieces, but at least 3 slots have better pieces out of set. Wondering if the loss of stats is worth the proc (my guess would be no)