xavier2k3

I've been testing this out recently too I've been running around with 9.18% hit (301 rating) in raids. 10.18% with a Shaman in group. The only time i had misses at all was on one encounter (Sapphiron 10 Man). The rest of the fights (all the other encounters in Naxx) I didn't miss at all. No Boomkin, either. I didn't have a Shaman in my group for the whole full clear.

 

Highbulp

Arms can put out a fair amount of dps, but from what I have seen when compared to an equally geared fury warrior, they just can't compare. I have also seen a fury warrior who had less gear than an arms warrior stay about 5 places on the dps charts higher than the arms. That for me is enough to not look at arms as a viable pve build.

 

Pogues

There was a post a while back on the WoW Official forums where someone took the top 15 WoW Parses and broke them down into class and average DPS. I tried to find it, but the WoW Forum search never gives me results for some reason. Anyway, the post was listing them because of BM Hunter's doing such large numbers. In the top 15 parses Arms warriors did about 200 dps less than Fury on average. A lot of it is personal skill, perhaps you just ran with an awful Arms warrior. I once did a ZA with a full SW geared ret pally in my Kara/ZA mixed gear and did the same DPS. This was back before the Ret nerfs. If the person doesn't know their class then it doesn't matter their gear. I'm not sure how viable Arms currently is for PVE, but I have seen them put up comparable numbers with the right gear and have seen some impressive parses as Birdmani said.

Edit: Found the WoW forum post here. Had to search MMO's blue tracker. Clearly these parses are old based on the damage they are doing, but still it shows what they say. Combine that with the parses easily found in the Arms DPS forum here and you can see Arms warriors putting up good numbers, far from the way some people are claiming they are so far behind fury as to be worthless, it just takes a certain skill of player. I'm not saying Arms is the PvE spec, simply it isn't as completely terrible as some people seem to think.

Also Rampage isn't the end all of raid buffs, it is good but druids have a similar buff without a proc, although rampage does have a better range.

 

• ebs2002

I think you may be neglecting the fact that personal DPS isn't everything. If you don't have a feral druid, the bleed debuff helps out any class with bleeds (all 3 warriors, some rogues, etc). If you don't have a combat rogue, the 2% increased physical damage debuff helps a whole bunch of classes (ferals, all tanks, dps warriors, enh shammies, etc etc).

An arms warrior is like an enhancement shaman. He may not top the DPS charts, but he'll increase the raid DPS a ton in the right setting

 

Erfinda

I think you may be neglecting the fact that fury warriors offer a raid buff that is superior.

Rampage - Spell - World of Warcraft

Obviously, if you already have a fury warrior, an Arms warrior brings something else to the table but on a 1v1 basis, the fury warrior offers a superior package.

You just posted an useless statistic; 200dps with what averages? It's equally useless to quote a statistic like this without linking the source so we can examine what the methodology was. The only real way to do this is to compare WWS parses at different gear levels ranging from heroics gear to best in slot gear.

 

Vhad

It's also not to ignore that total dps from most of the "physical dmg" dealing classes/specs now deal alot more of their dmg from spells or poisons and stuff I probably forgot. This means the 2% physical dmg increase is far from as potent as it was at lvl 70. This is very unfortunate since I really liked how Arms always held it's own due to the debuffs it brought. Hopefully the buffs to arms will be worthwhile so you get rewarded a bit more for the extra babysitting it is to play arms over fury.

What!?

 

Satlan_Leng

Aww so no dps warrior coming out on rawr soon? I was all looking forward to it too

 

Tankietka

You just posted an useless post. It's useless to post personal views like this without linking the proof of that other than "I've seen one arms warrior doing less damage than me".

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation :-). Whole discussion about which spec is better and by how much is just simply stupid.

 

FAME

I just spoke to Astrylian about this about two days ago and I hope and this is what he had to say.

release date?

Anything else on the subject please visit here

Please drop the Arms vs Fury monotony since its getting us nowhere.

 

Erfinda

Please point out where my rationale was personal anecdotes.

People claimed that Arms brings raid DPS buffs; I offered the fury talent that offers superior raid DPS buffs.

People claimed that some x WoW forum post proved that Arms DPS was only marginally worse than fury; I claim that a statistic without context is worthless, which it is.

And, no, it's really not stupid to post statistical comparisons between two specs; I agree it's stupid to offer useless personal opinions on issues that are do not have clear cut answers.

 

Satlan_Leng

Yay! Rawr was very nice for my paladin, and i was very sad when i went to do some work on the warrior and it only had prot.

 

Dhamon

I hate to go off topic, as most of the recent discussion about rotations and DW/Bloodsurge is great info, but I would like to pick the brains of some of the more experienced Fury warriors here.

Recently we have had a dry spell on Protector (zero drops in 2 weeks) and any really melee oriented gear. I have the badges to purchase the shoulders, which for me would be somewhat of a great upgrade, currently using [Shoulderplates of Bloodshed]. My main question is, would dropping down to 305 Hit Rating (from 339) affect my dps/rage generation more significantly then the great strength and crit upgrades from the [Valorous Dreadnaught Shoulderplates]?

You can armory me for a link of my gear if you need, I already know some upgrades, and Im considering replacing the expertise enchant on my gloves (im at 19) with hit rating, if I can afford the mats and hope I dont upgrade to Valorous tomorrow

Thanks for all the help, Im really just trying to figure out what the appropriate balance of hit rating is.

 

Bigbazz

As of next patch you will be above the hit rating cap for titans grip, despite losing the hit the extra strength and crit should show an overall increase in rage generation and dps. Enchant your gloves with "Crusher - 44ap" not hit rating. Just like in TBC hit rating is actually one of the lesser stats for a warrior, once above the yellow cap you should consider it a complimentary stat. As far as im aware you will need 164 hit rating(5% + 3% from talents) to cap yellows after the patch is applied. Considering it will be applied in the next week or two, its definately not worth gearing around the 13% titan grip hit cap. In many cases 1 point of strength is worth almost double that of 1 point of hit rating. something to keep in mind when chosing gear upgrades.

Oh and, goodluck on the shoulder token drops

Edit : Forgot to account for talented 3% hit, when stating hit cap.

 

Dhamon

Thanks for the quick response.

And its not just the shoulder drops friend...

We have had double vanquisher off of every boss save 1 loatheb kill, and 1 KT kill in the past 2-3 weeks. I think we also saw 1 protector shoulders from Gluth but thats been it. We are offspecing Vanquisher pieces to druids, while we still have Hunters/Shamans/Warriors wearing 0 valorous and all heroes

But thats off topic. Thanks for the info again.

 

JarL

Fury DPS seems to scale very poorly with current gear in all honestly (once you reach hit cap, etc...). I've gone from full 10 man to full 25 gear and expected my DPS to noticeably go up, however, in some cases I am struggling to surpass it. I'm not even enjoying my warrior atm in pve and for that matter not at all in pvp.

I actually feel guilty have taken 7.5 helm/shoulders, fury of the five flights, etc... and my DPS has NOT gone up. Maybe it is lack of raid buffs as we never have full melee buffs, but it is frustrating nonetheless. And on that note what are all of the melee buffs nowadays:

Windfury, 10% AP, trauma/mangle, 3% dmg, 3% increased crit? Am I missing something? Our raids are usually fully optimized for casters and with WOTLK casual friendly raid buff system I feel that I am overlooking one. Not counting hysteria, tott, etc...

Edit: On another note has their been a definite conclusion on best MH/OH enchants? Is berserker/110 AP still preferred over double berserker?

 

Dhamon

I think on page 21 there was a point made that Berserker in your OH comes up about 5% too low for it to be more AP than Massacre. Ill go look for it.

EDIT. Quoted this for ya for easy reference, It was the post I was mentioning. It doesnt quite show that it is 25% uptime, but it does say that you need 30% uptime in the OH for it to be worth more than massacre.

 

Bigbazz

There was a conclusion that Massacre worked out better than Berserker in the offhand, however the Berserker enchant has been buffed. Where it used to reduce your armor by 25% (and thus reducing the Ap from armored to the teeth) it now only reduces your armor by 5%. What this means is that its dps value will increase a bit. Food for thought?

 

Endeav

I have not noticed this whatsoever, raid buffs do play a massive part of your dps and missing any buffs will hugely affect your DPS. I have gained substantial gear upgrades since starting out in Naxx 25, and have gone from 4-4.2k on patchwerk to 5.7k tonight (on a relatively 'slow' 2'46 kill with no tricks, hysteria, or speed pots).

 

JarL

Well then you agree with me. Fury is far too reliant on raid buffs.

 

Endeav

How else would they balance our full raid damage? Every class goes through this as well, full raid buffs is absolutely huge for dps.

 

• Morsexy

We need to get you and the NerfDeepWounds crew together in a room to fight it out or something. I'd also like to throw in the "Make Arms a Viable Raid Spec!" and "if arms is viable for pve, then fury should be for pvp!" people into this battle royal.

Hopefully no one would make it out alive.


Everyone is all obsessed with owning up the maths and showing how good they are at theorycrafting and how much it sucks not having X buff therefore I lose 1,000 dps QQ, yet I bet a majority of warriors would not get a stack of sunder going in their random <insert 10 man>

And so Morsexier sailed away on his magnificent craft, his nautical-themed pashmina Afghan flapping in the salty breeze.

 

• Jacimo

Heck, I saw a Fury warrior last night without Bloodsurge: apparently it's hard to watch for a BT crit.

The whole 'raid buffs' argument is a rather useless one, most of the buffs you lack effect other classes as well so raid dps as a whole depending on composition drops. Hence the 3.0 movement into several buffs being available to several classes/specs and some buffs no longer stacking, but that's a debate that does not need to be returned to in this thread if any thread at all on EJ.

 

Daronsk

The math quoted earlier on this page used the new 5% beserker debuff. The conclusion that was reached is that for beserking to be better then Massacre on the OH it needs an uptime over 30%. A minimal amount of test data points to an uptime of 25%, so the current words of wisdom are still "Beserking/Massacre in 3.08".

 

Highbulp

Ok, I have couple of questions here. The first is about cool downs and when best to use them (specifically my DW and Recklessness). I have played around with using them in two different phases of the fight, the first is right when I run in and I open up with DW, Reck, followed by BT/Slam/WW. Recently though I have been saving both CD's for the final 20% and using it for my Executes. 10-15k crits are just too tempting. So my first question is, is saving the CD's for the final 20% better for my overall dps/overall damage? The second question is about my rotation for that final 20%. Should I just be spamming execute (and if so how much rage should I allow to build up before using it) or should I stick with the WW/BT rotation and just throw in executes when I have a excess of rage.

P.S. I have tried all the options above and am having trouble seeing which option is better, hence my post here for those who have played longer than my 6 months or so.

 

Nyel

I saw it a couple times in this thread that the general idea at 20% health is to keep your normal rotation but instead of dumping your extra rage on Heroic Strikes, you dump it on Execute instead.
Smart usage applies.

Well, I do it like that anyway.