NobleHelium

Regarding the cooldown use, you generally want to stack cooldowns as much as possible because they multiply and become more effective than the sum of the individual cooldowns. I assume your guild is using Heroism late in the fight (35-20%), so usually you can afford to use Death Wish and trinkets once early on, then the second time during Heroism.

 

• Morsexy

This is a very valid question, and one that has multiple answers the more you think or consider these raid variables.

1. How good is your raid's DPS?
2. How good is your tank's threat?
3. Do you have an idea how long it took to kill the boss last week?
4. Do you actually use Bloodlust correctly on a boss that dies under 5 minutes? ( IE with ~40 sec until boss death ).
5. More specifically Re: # 1 , What is the composition of your raid? Lots of Mages, Warriors DW frostblast DKs?
6. ( more I've missed I'm sure)

If you really want to max DPS you need to consider all of this as obviously the synergy of DW, Heroism, and Recklessness is very nice. Currently in Alpha we kill stuff generally at a speed where I either cannot use two Death Wishs(Death Wishes idk) effectively, so therefore its far better for me to sync my stuff 5 seconds into Heroism. We also have very good sub 35% DPS classes so I tend to blow Death Wish early if I think it might go to waste at all. We don't have to use our speed pot right away, we can DPS with DW for 15 seconds and then Haste pot when the Hero is called for.

I've talked a lot about specifically the Recklessness phase of sub 20% but I am still not sold on which I'd like to do on the rest. We can spam execute, or we can Execute and use WW\BT when up, or we can stick with what we do now and execute excess rage off in a smart fashion. All three methods have given me high DPS and at times low DPS.

The other warrior here says "DPS is a feeling" and I tend to agree. You can see those periods where you're just straight up balling it out executing every GCD and raping face, and the other parts where you don't from bad RNG on white misses and glancing blows owning your expected rage input. This is why I hate having a "set" rotation since a reactionary posture is more flexible for our rage waxing and waning.


It seems to me that during Recklessness your best rotation is

Heroic hit -> Slam that Recklessness key - > White hits >- Execute -> White - > Execute -> White - >Execute. Even doing this I have periods where I only net ~40 rage since "most hits are crit" means 'obviously' rage can get in a bad way (random is random sigh), and in that situation I use WW to compensate in that yellow attack part of the rotation and Execute the next free GCD.

I think its important to remember that we don't gain anything for using cooldowns sub 20%, we just have a way to achieve (mostly) limitless rage for a short period and used correctly with execute is powerful. That doesn't mean that I would not use DW with Heroism just to be sure I had Reck\DW for executes later.

And so Morsexier sailed away on his magnificent craft, his nautical-themed pashmina Afghan flapping in the salty breeze.

 

Graul

Does anyone think it would be worth swapping in more expertise gear (i.e. the old you just replaced with upgrades) over the dodge cap on Thaddius? That fight is all about RNG when it comes to what side you're standing on and you could get extremely lucky and spend most of your time behind him, or the reverse of that. Would the str/crit you exchange for reducing parries be worth it, or do you think it would be a wash or just not worth it due to the RNG nature of the fight?

And to be relevant to this thread;
I'm having to keep track of all of the fights we are beating in under 2'30 just so that I no longer have to guess if I'm going to be able to use 2x DW or not. Our RL is also getting into the extremely nasty habit of just calling BL "whenever"...no approximate life %, just whenever it "looks good" (often just as soon as all of my cooldowns ended or 20 seconds before they are back) and he didn't do this before. I'm now having to remind him to try to at least call it within the first 10% of the fight or the last 35%. Obviously encounter mechanics can intrude on that, but right now that's not really the case on the majority of fights.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say we don't gain anything for using cooldowns sub 20%. I notice a significant difference at 20% having Death Wish, Racial and trinkets active when Executing compared to not.

 

• landsoul

On Thaddius, you can safely assume he will be facing you 50% of the time. So.. 50% of 50% of a 1.7 SEP rated stat is only .425, which about the same as hit in a near best in slot setup over hit cap. So it's not worth to put on more exp gear on Thaddius. I'm not counting the DIM stacks either but it wouldn't make .425 catch up to .9 or 1.0.

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• Morsexy

Of course. I just mean people come across like we have Molten Fury et al. a lot of the time. But I feel your pain on the random hero when no one is paying attention in a 10 man that I'm helping someone get X Achieve.

And so Morsexier sailed away on his magnificent craft, his nautical-themed pashmina Afghan flapping in the salty breeze.

 

Dhamon

Graul -

Something that Ive thought about in most of our raids concerning BL is that sometimes we use it when everyone has the cooldowns fresh to blow, and we can benefit from the FULL duration on BL. For instance -

On Saph, we sometimes use it after the first Frost Breath, when he lands. He is down for a minute, you get the full duration of BL.

On Thaddius we obvious blow it early.

On Anub we just blow it after the first swarm. We usually kill him right as he enters the second swarm also.

etc etc

The RL might be basing his usage off of things like that. For some of the guilds where DPS might not be at 4k for most people yet, it helps to use it when you get the most benefit out of it, and also when you might have a chance at using 2. (On Thaddius, just to be safe, etc)

 

Mctanksalot

I don't think I have hit a significant raid encounter in wotlk where the fight lasts less then two minutes and 10 seconds. In this case it seems clear that DW is best blown immediately, and then either blown again at 2 min (for a fight that lasts more then 4 min) or saved for the BL execute phase (fight under 4 min).

Our officers delegate different responsibilities to different officers for raids, and one of mine is to call out a bloodlust. I therefore look at the overall fight times to get an idea of how many times i can blow DW.

In general what I do:
fight under 2 min 10 sec: save DW for BL/execute range
fight between 2 min 10 sec and 4 min 10 sec: DW right away and then save 2nd for BL/execute range
fight between 4 min 10 sec and 6 min 10 sec: DW right away, DW when cooldown is up, and save final DW for BL/execute range
etc. etc.

Bloodlust should ALWAYS be blown at ~45-55 seconds before you last killed the boss if there is a dps warrior or mage in the raid. The only exceptions to this are when the fight is more then 5 min long (and you have two shamen) or if it takes more then 45 sec to kill the boss from 20% (at which point you can blow BL at 20%).

BL is better for warriors in execute phase even when keeping a WW -> BT rotation, because the increased speed puts your 2h's at atounr 1.7 speed, meaning that you can still use instants on all globals, even when BT/WW are on cooldown.

I would be curious to see how much more damage DW gives in execute phase over regular phases. is 40 seconds of DW (with 10 seconds in execute phase) better then 30 seconds of DW in execute phase? I would assume so, but i'd have to check those numbers.

 

Mctanksalot

I would say not worth it just because it's not a progression fight. You would gain dps, but it doesn't really benefit the raid in a significant way. It might be worth it if your guild was stuck on thad, as it would be the same as hit before the special cap.

 

Shha

I really dont get all those discussions about WW/BT used in execute phase. Just spam executes honestly. There are 2 scenarios:

a) You have poor gear - due to scaling execute is a lot better dmg

b) You have good gear. With good cooldown usage (DW/heroism/Hysteria/Potion of speed/trinkets/reck), your rage generation goes through the roof ... I checked my late wws ... and i dont really have that great gear (no BoH and few missing slots), and my average Execute dmg precrit (so average for non crits + average for crits * 0.45 (impale) * 0.97 (~meta) ) /2 ended up at 7100 dmg. Discount hysteria and you end up being at 6k or so. 6k BT would take simply insane AP to achieve , same for WW (remember we talk about non crit values).

6k executes with DW mean also around 80 rage executes every gcd. With like I said - insane rage generation during all cds, only a miss streak can stop you from executing every gcd at that high rage. To further counter that happening, i save my recklessness, and use it either at the very end of DW/execute phase, or the first time a miss streak occurs - to get use from gcd where i cant execute

 

Graul

80 rage every 1.5 seconds and consistently? Sorry, no. There's no reason to not use WW at all during the last 20% unless you are seriously rage capping and can't burn rage fast enough...which may happen sometimes, but it certainly does not happen frequently enough to just mindlessly spam Execute each time.

Wow Web Stats

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WWS counts each hit of WW seperately and then averages them out yes? If so, how can you really make a case for Execute when both are up and you're not rage capping?

 

Shha

Ok lets see - thats from LAST run.
Avg dmg Non Crit Crit
Maexxna 6658 14864
Heigan 6207 14755
Noth 6743 14384
Razuvious 4993 13340 (a bit missed cds)
KT 5150 13800 (longer execute phase then hysteria/dw)

Not sure what rage it equals too - you can make the real calculations i sort of estimated 7k executes as 80 rage - so those are like 70 rage ones in top 3.

 

Origence

I dont have Hysteria or Heroism during Execute phase. You can't count those buffs as an universal thing that everyone has. And your non crit Execute average damage is really exceptional. For comparison I put my values in bold. And I have Execute glyph and Improved Execute 2/2

Avg dmg Non Crit
Maexxna 6658 - 3107
Heigan 6207 - 3962
Noth 6743 - 3777
Razuvious 4993 - 3815
KT 5150 - 3477

Sub 20% what Im doing is if swing speed < 1.8 (Potion of Speed/Meteorite) which is close enough to gcd I spam execute and still use whirlwind when is ready and I get 35 rage or more, that is after a swing crit.
When swing speed goes back to normal, around 2.3 I do the normal rotation without heroic strike and executing in the gaps. If rage goes too high I will prioritize Execute too.
For DWish and Reck I use them at beginning of Execute phase just after an execute when rage is low.
Basically my plan is trying to have an ability to use every gcd since the dps of each ability is fairly similar. I could say slam is the worse and I sometimes skip them during execute phase but if rage is low is a very effective attack for 15 rage and after Im able to do a higher rage execute. Even Heroic Throw has its place if an execute lands just after a MH swing.

For further oprimize trinket procs, Deathwish, Speed potions I've started searching if there is an addon that tracks the inner cooldown of trinkets. I can do it mentally looking at stopwatch knowing that when a trinket procs it will do it again around 45 secs after, but it's a bit of a headache.

 

Gristle

Procodile has been updated for WotLK now and works a charm, with cd bars for all procs with internal cd's. It's what I use anyway.

 

Shha

Well tbh, Heroism during execute phase is something I really assume everyone has - there is no reason not to. As for Hysteria - well once they fix DW DKs, there will be probably blood DKs again in every raid - which in turn will result in free hysterias - and there is noone better to put it on then warrior during executes.

 

Whistles

The only way I get near 80 rage within a GCD is when both my weapons hit and crit. With WF/Icy Talons, about 5% haste on my gear, and Heroism up my swing timer is still slightly over 2 seconds. It is much better damage for me to sustain my regular rotation and use Execute instead of HS or Bloodsurge Slams to make sure I'm hitting an instant every GCD. It also helps to mitigate the chance that I miss with both weapons or just get one glance and a miss and end up sitting there for 4 seconds with nothing to do.

 

Aurethios

I'm usually just lurking for info that you guys do very well in handling but I'm now finally able to lend a hand - the cooldown monitor for ForteXorcist (ForteWarlock) has been tracking all procs and innate cooldowns from trinkets such as Grim Toll, Meteorite Whetstone, and Mirror of Truth. It has come in very handy in that respect.

Cheers.

 

Graul

There are some fights (Gluth/Sapph) where it's better to BL before then. And I wish we could use a Blood DK at every raid, but we don't use them at all thanks to the complete randomness with Enhancement Shamans (we have zero) so we currently use a Frost/Unholy DK half of the time.

 

Mctanksalot

With flurry, it is well under 2...

BUT, ww and BT are better then execute IMO, not because of damage, but because they do not drain your rage bar. If you get 80 rage in a gcd during execute phase, it is better to WW, which gives excellent damage per rage, and also save the rest of your rage for the next GCD. If your speed is around 1.7 (what mine is during execute range when lusted) then execute is probably > BT but not > WW. When you weap speed is a bit slower, you're probably better off prioritizing WW and BT to keep rage for your next global.

 

Origence

There's something that can be done. Let's assume someone with [Betrayer of Humanity] and [Armageddon] and expertise capped.
After jumping to Thaddius platform swap to [The Jawbone] and [Inevitable Defeat].Going a bit too far there's also [Nesingwary 4000] with [Precise Scarlet Ruby] And then after each polarity shift swap weapons depending if being behind or in front. The weapon swap is done during the buffless transition so the damage loss from weapon swapping is probably less than a single parry.
What I haven't stopped to consider is if the extra parry reduction is better than the weapon downgrade. Probably BoH it's always better to keep and [Armageddon] or [Death's Bite] be swapped by Jawbone or Inevitable Defeat.

I have another question. Do you use BT/WW during transitions at Thaddius or wait until get the charges buff up?
Myself I keep the normal rotation until polarity shift cast is at 90%. If BT is ready soon I use it, the transition takes 5 seconds same as BT cooldown. And Whirlwind I delay it for when I get the buff again. And the Bloodsurge slam I use it too. During execute I will use it once and then build rage for when the buff is applied.

And another thing that I'm still not convinced about is glyphs for 3.08. Glyph of Cleave gives +50% damage when there is 3 targets or more. Is quite a powerful glyph if we consider how it improves the ability.
On my last Naxx run Cleave was 0,74% of dmg on bosses and 3,03% counting trash, 8% looking at trash only. And I cant guarantee there was more than 2 targets everytime I used it.
On bosses I only cleaved at Noth, Anub'rekhan and Maexxna. Malygos offers a little chance on P2 and Sartharion is probably the boss fight where more AoE can be used but Im more focused on getting down the drakes and leave the AoEing for other classes.

Conclusion, Cleave is only meaningful on trash. With the Glyph it could go up to 11-12% on trash or maybe more considering I could pass to skip BT/Slam and only Cleave/WW when there is more than 2 targets. Is an idea that attracts me, but Im worried to be penalyzed in boss fights by losing Execute or Heroic Strike glyph. Looking at my average execute damages of 4K, +380 pre-mitigation damage from glyph is around +6-7% dmg on Execute.
Glyph of Heroic Strike is harder to rate. 281 procs= 2810 rage in a Naxx clear. It makes it easier to play when HS only lowers your rage bar by 2.
I probably will try cleave glyph instead of Heroic for one raid and see if I have problems with rage and using HS. Without testing it Im not sure what to decide.

 

SquattingCow

You have a 1.5 second cooldown when swapping weapons, so the benefit you'd gain from swapping expertise weapons in/out would probably end up being fairly meaningless.

 

J3lackjack121

Hey Guys,
I'm new on the Forum, and i thought the discussion about this DPS Fury warrior was great with lots of insights and it helped me a lot building up my own toon. I'm all new to the fury tree, and have been Prot all the way up to 80 ... So while my dps set is still an offset, i'd still like to be able to top the meters in raids whenever I respec :p

Here is the build I am using (armory and talent build)
chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

I've tried to get my crit up to 31-32% unbuffed in zerker stance, I'm yellow capped, capped at expertise and my unbuffed AP is around 3.8k. The problem is ... i can't seem to go above 3k dps in raids and i'm sure i'm using the right rotation that was discussed a few times in here (BT, WW, Slam if BT crits, HS when +50 rage). So if u guys have any suggestion about how i can improve my build, it'll be more than welcome !

Sorry about my english, it's not my first language :p

 

Valog

Shrakzul,

A warrior's dps comes as much from making the right choices in a fight as it does from the right spec. Unforunately, the spec you linked isn't coming up, so I'll assume that it's not completely crazy. Aside from the obvious stuff you already know (making your hit cap, expertise cap, etc), there are many other things that affect your dps. A few off the top of my head:

1) Using timers effectively. If you have a shaman, using recklessness, trinkets and death wish at the same time as Blood Lust can make a huge difference.

2) If you're in a 25 man raid, your dps will generally be higher than in a 10 man raid and in a 5 man dungeon because of raid buffs and complimentary abilities used by other classes. Everyone in a raid is at the mercy of the other 9-24 people. If they aren't speced right, using the right buffs, etc. your dps will suffer. The ridiculous parses you see on WWS by warriors aren't all the skill of the warrior but of the whole raid.

3) Your cycle...I don't think we really have a cycle anymore. Whirlwind should be used over BT since it does more damage with a longer cooldown. Using someone like powerauras to alert you when BT proced a Slam! will also help a lot. I believe there is some debate about executing instead of BT after 20%, but I personally execute. I should probably take another look at it, but I'm lazy.

4) Gear. Obviously, gear matters. Some pieces might look good (oh hey, lots of haste and Armor pen, how can I go wrong?), but are really overshadowed by other pieces, some/many of which aren't even plate.

5) When in doubt, find a warrior that has awesome damage output and copy them. Steal their spec. Look at their WWS numbers and see what abilities they are using.

Anyway, hope this helps.

 

J3lackjack121

Thanks for your reply !

I think i fixed the link : chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

If it still doesnt work, i'll use another planner and post it again.

 

• landsoul

So has anyone gotten exact PPM for Berserking yet? The small data set I got leads me way lower than 1.2, the same as mongoose or Executioner. Actually getting at .8 PPM or under, which is in line with the longer duration than mongoose. But in that regard, a .8 PPM is severely lacking and my calculations actually put Double Mongoose ahead of Berserking / Massacre at high levels of gear and buffs.

I don't know what to say or do at this point. I need more data with Berserking.

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Mctanksalot

In regards to the offhand enchant debate, just ran a test on a target dummy for almost 2 hours:



Uptime for offhand berserking was 33%. For those wondering, the second buff was meteorite whetstone (19% uptime), 3rd was warrior t7 4 pc proc (4.4 ppm as uptime is unimportant), and 4th was mirror of truth buff (14% uptime).



This was simply using WW and BT (to help with flurry procs) on every cooldown. The offhand was the only weapon enchanted with berserking. I believe that this is accurate enough information to confirm that berserking is the superior offhand enchant over massacre, as the math estimated that with the buff, offhand berserking needed just under 20% uptime to be equal to massacre.