Graul

So far I've been holding off enchanting even the MH with Berserking due mostly to the questionable uptime. I also don't really like PPM effects that don't seem to give a distinctive advantage over the "second best" in slot or weapon enchant usually. It just seems to me that while the "average" gain may be higher, on some fights you'll get a clear advantage, but other times you can get screwed through RNG on the same fight. I'd rather be consistent.

Questions like this are never really answered on a spreadhseet and you would need seperate calculations per event:

a) How much AP are you actually gaining over Massacre assuming you are actually attacking something 100% of the time the buff is active?
b) How much AP are you actually getting over Massacre when you factor in all of the times the buff is active, but you are not actually able to hit anything?
c) How much is the additional AP actually contributing if the proc isn't up for most of a Death Wish/Bloodlust/Hysteria etc cycle over Massacre?

 

Tamonten

Berzerking... There appears to be relatively little confirmed data regarding Berzerking. I personally use it because between it, mirror, and the Darkmoon card (at least one is almost always up) I find that I can gain more average AP than I would otherwise by just stacking static str/AP. This also can, however, lead to some extremely spiky threat.... but that is not really the point here. Aside from trying to play the RNG, I'm unsure as to weather or not Berzerking has a static advantage over Massacre.

Examining Berzerking vs. Massacre under the exacting scrutiny of paper-napkin math:

Berzerking procs to give a 400AP bonus, which is 484AP with both Imp. Berzerker stance and a 10%AP buff from a DK or Enh. Shaman, and Massacre gives a bonus of 145AP.

If we assume the upper-limit of suggested ppm's, 1.2;

(15s Uptime/60s)(1.2 ppm)(484 AP) = 145 average AP

We find Berzerking yields a theoretically equivalent amount of AP as Massacre, meaning the superior enchant is determined by the RNG (Massacre proccing during BL/DW will make it better than Massacre overall, etc.).

If we assume the lower-limit of suggested ppm's, .8;

(15s Uptime/60s)(.8 ppm)(484 AP) = 97 average AP

Therefore making Berzerking 48 less static AP than Massacre. Again, the superiority of Berzerking is subject to the RNG, as I would think the massive chunk of AP during a critical phase (BL/DW/Trinkets/Pots) very well may eclipse the static AP lost. This is still not very conclusive.

However, these calculations neglect AttT, which is a significant source of AP. A single stack of Berzerking, assuming a rough average of armor values, 12,000, will loose ~110AP. Now, AttT updates its AP bonus ever 30 seconds or whenever a piece of gear is swapped out. So, Berzerking becomes even more subject to the RNG - if it procs just before AttT updates, you will end up effectively gaining only 180AP over a 30 second span: 15s Berzerking proc yields an effective 290AP and 15s of loosing 110AP until AttT refreshes back to 100% armor. On the other hand, if Berzerking procs under the 15s just after AttT updates itself, you gain the entire 484AP and the numbers above hold true.

So, assuming bad luck on proc timing with regard to AttT refreshes, 'Zerking gives static values of 87AP given 1.2ppm and just 58AP given a .8ppm. This makes Berzerking look pretty bad if you are unlucky.

In a 1min cycle, there will be 4 critical phases in which Berzerking can proc: 2 phases of 15 sec just after AttT refreshes during which Berzerking does not suffer from armor loss and 2 phases during which it will suffer penalty from AttT. I am not good at statistics, so I don't really know how to properly include the chance that a proc lands in either of thoes phases, or how overlap (IE the enchant procs, say, 5 seconds before AttT re-calculates, giving you 5 seconds of 484AP, 10s of 374AP and 20 sec of -110AP) can be accurately included in these calculations. Perhaps someone with a working knowledge of statistics could figure that out or something.

Really, Berzerking is just stupidly RNG dependent. The huge differences in estimated ppm's make me wonder how it is effected by weapon speed or some factor I have not considered. My personal experiance with the enchant have made it "feel" very powerful, but it should also be noted that the first weapon I have used it with is BoH, which moved Death's Bite to my OH to replace a Titansteel Destroyer... so the huge increase in the feel of my DPS may not be very related to the enchant at all.

I'll try and get a rogue with Berzerking on a dagger to do some tests with me and try and determine any difference between proc rates related to weapon speed when the servers come back up.


*Edited for accuracy, thanks landsoul.

 

• landsoul

But the theoretic 1.2 PPM exact is for 0 net haste and increased speed, and only white attacks. The real value increases with instant attacks and haste or IAS effects. I don't really care about comparisons of one enchant to another for estimations. I care about what is the actual value of Berserker PPM atm.

Also AP scaling works like this base * (1+.1 talent) * (1+.1 hunter,shaman) = base *1.21 it doesn't matter what order they are in.

Tired of your crappy DPS? Need a boost? Make an appointment for a private lesson with me so that you can maximize your potential and gain full understanding of your class. A 1 hour session is only 20$. These sessions entail evaluation of your character and playstyle, using task analysis and providing some critical thinking opportunities.

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW

 

Tamonten

So how can we get an accurate PPM value?

 

• landsoul

A good test has large data sets for a higher level of confidence and a smaller range of possibility.

equip weapon (preferrably minimal haste rating)

un-spec out of flurry and blood frenzy

get naked

load/clear recount

Gain around 10000 connects on an 80 target dummy, can be the non elite. This is the sum of glances, crits, and normal hits.

Stop attacking and /combatlog

Get a program somewhere that can red total # of proc gains and refreshes. Or you can just count them



Article can be found: Proc Mechanics which you should take a minute to read so you know what you are doing.

Not sure if the PPM assumes avoidance or not.

Tired of your crappy DPS? Need a boost? Make an appointment for a private lesson with me so that you can maximize your potential and gain full understanding of your class. A 1 hour session is only 20$. These sessions entail evaluation of your character and playstyle, using task analysis and providing some critical thinking opportunities.

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW

 

sephfiroth

delete.

 

Grimloche

i was curious about this myself. i've been just maintaining my rotation through the switch. i have no idea if it's actually better or not.

 

1337beast

Since I didn't see that point discussed in the last 3 pages, I think we can start wondering where the 3 points in precision can be placed after the patch.

With 0/3 precision after the patch, we will only need 296 hit rating. I don't know for you, but personnally, attaining this hit rating with the current gear available is very easy because the gear was first designed to accomodate the 5% additional miss chance on TG. Right now, I have more than 400 hit rating without a sngle gem or enchant having hit rating.

So the question is: what is the most valuable talent we can put those 3 points in? I was thinking of: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
wich has the advantage of having the DPS boost from improved cleave and commanding presence, and also having the utility of piercing howl. The only thing I don't know is if putting 2 points in improved execute will provide a bigger increase in DPS than improved cleave. If that's the case, remove the 3 points from improved cleave for 2 in execute and 1 in anger management I think will be a good choice.

 

Origence

Precision is the best dps increasing talent you can pick. Seriously.

What you need to do is get upgrades with less hit and more str/crit.
When you have too much expertise you can drop out weapon mastery because you will only miss the disarm reduction. But if you unlearn Precision you're losing 3% hit on white attacks which can also affect your yellow damage if you get rage starved by miss/glancing streak.

 

Azhiaziam54

Can I get confirmation on the new hit cap in 3.0.8 with 3/3 Precision?

 

Daronsk

From everything I tested on Landsoul's spreadsheet for the question of "is it worth dropping precision/weapon mastery for X talent" its not worth it. If your not gearing horribly and have a reasonable amount of hit then precision is going to beat all the other talents you could pick up. You should try to stay right on the expertise cap with your gearing choices and definetly should not be dropping points in it when your reach your BiS T7 but if your using a Jaw bone then I can see dropping points in this. If you have free talent points from this or other choices with your spec then I suggest imp execute. Point for point its the best boss dps increase talent that is left. Cleave dosen't have a practical application on boss fights except maybe sartharion with adds if the flames and mini-drakes are tanked next to the big drakes, the rage gain talents(anger management/imp zerker rage) are nice but not worth as much dps, and the shout talents are more situational then dps increases.

This really is not the place to be asking basic hit cap questions but your looking at...
32.8 * (8% - 3%[from precision]) = 164 hit rating to yellow cap. Just try to keep in mind that its 32.8 hit rating per % and multiply by the percent you need.

In regards to the Beserking conversation...
If you go by the formula that I've been using in this thread (earlier posts) then zerking needs to break 29.875% (this is post 3.08 calc) uptime to be worth it on either hand. From my 10 man naxx run last week I see it spiking around quite a bit between 24% on some fights and as high as 58%. Taking the night as a whole it came out to around 40% uptime on the MH (I don't run OH zerking yet), so I'm pretty confident in saying that MH zerking is the way to go. Now if we take Mctanksalot data that OH is running at 33% the simple conclusion would be to say go zerking/zerking. However, I would like to see WWS data showing uptimes during actual fights where time off the boss can change the effective uptime%. In all likelyhood I'm betting that Zerking/Massacre will still be the way to go.

 

Azhiaziam54

I'm assuming this is taking the newly removed hit penalty from TG in to account, correct?

 

Mctanksalot

Yes. This belongs in "simple questions simple answers" imo.

I haven't been able to find any information on armor penetration in regards to raid debuffs. I haven't seen whether or not armor pen is calculated before or after sunder armor, meaning that you would only need around 50-60% for full armor removal on bosses.

If this information is not known (and believe me, I searched), how would one devise a test for this?

 

Kaoz

Pretty sure I've read it applies after armor debuffs, which is why it's really not that interesting.

And I've likely read it here or on tankspot btw.

 

Mctanksalot

Not meant to offend, but I we need confirmed information. If its calculated before sunder/ff we can figure out the armor pen soft cap and eventually gear towards it.

 

Kaoz

Not even sure I'm allowed to post links, but this is where I read it :

Warrior 6th Edition DW Fury Guide - TankSpot

 

DarthGreg

It's calculated after armor debuffing effects, all of this was tested months ago when 3.0 was still in the PTR.

 

Morsexy

I'm pretty convinced that overall Berserking is a far better enchant. If I look over every boss fight in naxx for the last two months, on any boss with sustained damage on target, my uptime% varies from about 34% to 45%. On Loatheb, Thaddius, and Kel'Thuzad (the only fights that last 3, 5 and 7 minutes respectively) my uptime averages to 42%. I see it go as high as 50%(4
times) and as low as 29%(twice) out of 20 boss fights.

Unless I'm missing something, with all the haste going around on a boss encounter nowadays, we'd have to find a way to simulate those conditions on the boss dummy to accurately show the PPM in a raid vs just hitting a dummy solo.

And so Morsexier sailed away on his magnificent craft, his nautical-themed pashmina Afghan flapping in the salty breeze.

 

ephedrine89

Is Beserker Rage as a talent really worth it now our window of opportunity has been decreased? I would doubt it, and see it useful only at the start of a fight, so only at trash it could be of use, when we're looking at the new rotation:

0.0 sec: WW
1.5 sec: BT
3.0 sec: GCD free / SLAM!
4.5 sec: Heroic Throw
6.5 sec: BT
8.0 sec: WW
9.5 sec: GCD free /SLAM!
11.5 sec: BT
13.0 sec: GCD free / SLAM!
14.5 sec: GCD free
16.0 sec: WW
17.5 sec: BT
19.0 sec: GCD free / SLAM!
20.5 sec: GCD free
22.5 sec: BT
24.0 sec: WW
25.5 sec: GCD free / SLAM!
27.5 sec: BT
29.0 sec: GCD free / SLAM!
30.5 sec: GCD free
32.0 sec: WW
33.5 sec: BT

If you have no lag + have perfect timing.

Apart from that even though I'm just above the hit cap I still don't have any trouble with rage regen, so I rather pick up something like enrage.

PS: First post here.

 

Kaap

Now that enchanting materials have been reduced I'm wondering what to do. Dual Berserking or Berserking+Massacre?

 

NinJOu

Is OH Berserking uptime related to HIT rating since it procs from white hits ? Or am i wrong ?

BTW what's your addon to "time" your procs uptime ?

 

Randor

Heroic Throw resets your swing timer so you should try and avoid weaving it into a DPS rotation.

This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.

 

Nexx

I've been going back and forth in my personal testing of:
WW/BT -> Execute
vs.
Execute Spam

Now its hard to compare results from last week as my DPS has increased through different gems/gear choices based on the new patch (not to mention ww glyph and bloodsurge).

I used to just straight execute spam, but I have converted into BT/WW for a few reasons:
A. To increase the damage of the deep wounds stack (execute doesn't add any additional damage to the stack)
B. To use rage more efficiently (35 damage for 1 rage is a waste)
C. More time to build rage for larger executes while using BT/WW (3 seconds vs. GCD Mashing)
D. Potential AOE Situations (WW Anyone?)

If you're curious of the damage I'm doing I'll enclose my guild's WWS from patch day.
1/20 Webstats

 

Daronsk

I think avoiding it all together is a mistake. Its hits just as hard as bloodthirst and its rage free. It should be treated kind of like the old school slam though as it does indeed reset your swing timer. Download a swing timer, hit it right after your MH swing(or both swings if your weapon speed is synced) and your going to see a dps increase as long as your not clipping your other abilities.