In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion - Page 27

Brgid · 01/22/09, 10:10 AM

I wouldn't run without Execute glyph as Arms at the moment but looking at lackluster Arms performance I'm about to jump on the Fury bandwagon - is Execute (rather than HS) a viable candidate for swapping out for a Cleave glyph ( ... while trash is trash, there are plenty of boss fights that also need AoE ...)? Particularly with people talking about keeping up BT / WW sub 20, I'm wondering how much dps the glyph is actually worth?

Randor · 01/22/09, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Origence

For me the new Bloodsurge was a loss of DPS in last Naxx clear. It also means I can forget about trying to rend since I cant predict a GCD free period.

What pleased me is the new Cleave Glyph. Past week Cleave was 8% on my dmg done to trash and 16% this week. On trash I was usually 5th after Hunters and DKs and I was first on total dmg done this clear. The other fury warrior had similar results. And I didn't notice a huge difference in being able to HS without the HS glyph. It might not be an increase against Bosses but I like the improvement in AoE power just for the loss of 10 rage on HS crits.

You mean you are glyphing for trash and not bosses? The HS glyph was the most powerful glyph for a Fury warrior. Also, why would you be weaving rend into a Fury build?

I too had a DPS loss in Naxx25 from the previous week but it took about half the instance before I started getting comfortable with the new Bloodsurge/WW rotation. And looking at the WWS report, the numbers seem to match that. A big drop on the first few bosses then about equal. DPS was lower on Thaddius and Loetheb but a little higher on Sapphy and Kel.

I'm interested to see how numbers shake out next week. It still feels ... more chaotic and RNG-reliant but I could see it being a DPS increase as well.

Schneeb · 01/22/09, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Brgid

I wouldn't run without Execute glyph as Arms at the moment but looking at lackluster Arms performance I'm about to jump on the Fury bandwagon - is Execute (rather than HS) a viable candidate for swapping out for a Cleave glyph ( ... while trash is trash, there are plenty of boss fights that also need AoE ...)? Particularly with people talking about keeping up BT / WW sub 20, I'm wondering how much dps the glyph is actually worth?

My friend who plays protection was almost certain he was going to use the cleave glyph this patch but then he realised HS,Blocking and Devastate have far more use than a little threat on heroic trash (I seriously cant think of a boss encounter where 3 targets are likely to be ripped off a tank).

Duranthor · 01/22/09, 1:24 PM

I'm preatty sure that the glyphs of choice right now should be Heroic Strike, Execute, and Whirlwind.

I personally like a little RNG in the mix, I feel it makes the rotations a little less boring.

It's really cool to get 3 or 4 procs in a row.

How good this change is for you really depends on how much you use heroic strike. I personally use it a lot ergo I have seen my slam contribution go up about 2%.

Vitalstatistix · 01/22/09, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Nexx

I used to just straight execute spam, but I have converted into BT/WW for a few reasons:
A. To increase the damage of the deep wounds stack (execute doesn't add any additional damage to the stack)

Could you clarify this? According to the 'DeepWounds and you' thread, execute generates the same deep wounds as a white swing. In that case, any execute crits should still add to the stack that is currently ticking.
Barring any bugs with Bloodthirst or other specials, shouldn't all crits generate the same deep wounds (calculated based only on average weapon damage and taking into account any DIM's present)? That is, crits from specials should also generate the same deep wounds as white swing crits. Or is the crit bonus from Impale also factored in somehow?

Pogues · 01/22/09, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Duranthor

I'm preatty sure that the glyphs of choice right now should be Heroic Strike, Execute, and Whirlwind.

I personally like a little RNG in the mix, I feel it makes the rotations a little less boring.

It's really cool to get 3 or 4 procs in a row.

How good this change is for you really depends on how much you use heroic strike. I personally use it a lot ergo I have seen my slam contribution go up about 2%.

Honestly, I think the change in the bloodsurge was done entirely to mess with fury's rotation which has been the same since virtually the vanilla days. I think they did it to make fury a little less BTx2WW and more dynamic as that was a complaint from fury warriors that they found the rotation boring. Oddly, I have yet to proc a slam! off a HS which just seems odd, but I haven't played much since the patch.
I agree with your glyphs. I don't see Cleave being worth replacing any of the other glyphs. Trash is trash and I don't think their are many 25 raids complaining about how much dps you do to clear it. The number of bosses where it would come in handy just isn't worth losing out on 2 rage HS and the reduced CD on WW gives you something to do when the RNG leaves you with out any BSurge procs.

Windchilla · 01/22/09, 1:42 PM

My Fury warrior is currently main handing Death's Bite and off-handing The Jawbone, with the recent increase in DPS contribution from Slam, would it be a good idea to swap the Jawbone main hand for higher Slam damage?

scoTTy · 01/22/09, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vashanka

I find myself having a bit of trouble catching all of my Slam! procs since the patch, I either end up missing them or tunnel visioning it and not paying nearly enough attention to what's going on with the actual encounter. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good addon to keep track of this?

You can also use ClassTimer mod and put in a custom line for Bloodsurge procs. I do this with my trinkets as well, so I can easily track when they proc and the duration.

Stuntspike · 01/22/09, 2:02 PM

Event alert is the easiest to use addon i have found for slam! proc warning. It puts the icon in the center of your screen and plays a customizable sound. Provided you know how to insert a sound file in an already created mod you can use more than just the rockbiter sound effect on proc.

EventAlert : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods

Nexx · 01/22/09, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by Vitalstatistix

Could you clarify this? According to the 'DeepWounds and you' thread, execute generates the same deep wounds as a white swing. In that case, any execute crits should still add to the stack that is currently ticking.
Barring any bugs with Bloodthirst or other specials, shouldn't all crits generate the same deep wounds (calculated based only on average weapon damage and taking into account any DIM's present)? That is, crits from specials should also generate the same deep wounds as white swing crits. Or is the crit bonus from Impale also factored in somehow?

I might be misjudging what is happening behind the scenes as I was trying to digest thing during fights. It seemed by just execute spamming my stack would always lower in value quicker (and rarely increase) compared to the WW/BT rotation. That may be the case just because of the increased number of attacks I'm using to increase the stack.

DarthGreg · 01/22/09, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Windchilla

My Fury warrior is currently main handing Death's Bite and off-handing The Jawbone, with the recent increase in DPS contribution from Slam, would it be a good idea to swap the Jawbone main hand for higher Slam damage?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Schneeb

My friend who plays protection was almost certain he was going to use the cleave glyph this patch but then he realised HS,Blocking and Devastate have far more use than a little threat on heroic trash (I seriously cant think of a boss encounter where 3 targets are likely to be ripped off a tank).

Glyph of Revenge > Glyph of Devastate.

Morsexy · 01/22/09, 7:54 PM

The real question is why was jawbone ever in his OH?

Also don't you mean Revenge Glyph > Heroic? I was pretty sure data on tankspot showed that glyph of devastate was very good threat because you always got the 2 sunder stack threat value even at a full stack of sunders.

It was my impression that Revenge, Devas and Blocking are the three best glyphs.

If you figure that your raid crit rate on heroic is 33% you're winning the rage battle with revenge.

Nospamas · 01/22/09, 8:58 PM

Firstly howdy, I've recently switched to fury warrior main from feral druid as I've gotten fed up of lackluster performance and the lack of improvement in the foreseeable future as we are a viable "tank". But anyway:

Some thoughts and ideas from the last few pages of this thread.

Firstly on the idea of a 1h dual wield warrior from a couple of pages back. I toyed with the idea of a heavy arms build; something like this with the basic idea of trying to max out the amount of damage you do with deep wounds. So using a heavy 2.6 speed weapon in the main hand and as fast as possible offhand. Whether it is worth using, the answer is probably no, is beyond the scope of this thread really (as its technically an arms or a hybrid spec).

To go on to other discussion points; The bloodsurge change feels lke a nerf but a minor one at most. Assuming the standard BT/WW/Slam (Heroic strike) priorities, slam procs can easily be lost being only the third priority. Combined with the random nature and a reliance on heroic strike to make up the proc rate difference this can hurt rage starved warriors. Unregardless it seemed to be minor at most with slam making up a similar percentage of my damage as previous to the patch (around 4%). Though won't argue with the numbers quoted here; it may well be a buff

.

With regards to glyphing. My personal preferences are WW/HS/Cleave. I'm Also specced into improved cleave which makes the bonus target extra nice. Was topping the meters on 3 or 4 target trash packs peaking at 5k dps for a pack with deathwish up

. Its my personal feeling that I'm willing to take a minor boss dps hit (We've not had any trouble on a single boss for months now) for extra trash damage and additional instance damage; each to their own. Using this glyph arrangement seems to result in a loss of dps while using high-rage executes so keeping up standard rotation after the 20% mark seems to work out better.

With regards to slam! procs I'm using a facility built into parrot (an SCT clone) along with its other nice tricks it has a built in event alert attached to buff gains and the like, great SCT mod and I've found it very useful to monitor those procs.

To finish, a couple of questions:
I'm aware that the initial execute damage scales with attack power but is this the case for damage done by each point of additional rage (similar to the scaling on ferocious bite with extra energy)?

With my current setup I do between 15 and 20% deep wounds damage on any given fight, this is almost always less than melee and heroic strike/cleave; these two combined are always significantly larger than its value at the very least. The highest I've seen is on loatheb with 25% of damage done by deep wounds, I'm sure I saw GC quote numbers of 40%+ so my question is basically this: My gear isn't bad though I am currently stuck with 3.4 speed weapons, I've got a full epic set but could still get a few upgrades, does deep wounds start scaling up stupidly well at the final few pieces of gear?

The real question is why was jawbone ever in his OH?

Oh and to clarify this comment made above. The extra 0.1 dps on deaths bite (making it perhaps the reason why you put it in your main hand) is quickly countered by the slower speed of the jawbone. The slower speed results in larger deep wounds ticks (as it is 48% of your average main hand weapon hit). And funnily enough deaths bite with its quicker speed results in higher dps as an offhand than the jawbone, probably for a similar reason it hitting faster procs more of those delicious deep wounds ticks.

Rustyboy · 01/22/09, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by DarthGreg

Glyph of Revenge > Glyph of Devastate.

Glyph of Blocking + Glyph of Revenge would be the 2 best glyphs for warrior tanks.

The 3rd Glyph would be a choice between Glyph of Heroic Strike / Glyph of Devastate.

I heroic strike A LOT (35% of total damage in high rage fights) so I choose that one because I get 30% crit on HS and the extra rage enables me to keep dumping threat for longer when I come across a period where rage drops. Devastate is very good especially for getting your sunders up quickly, which also helps when your not tanking bosses a bit more. However Devastates total threat/damage should be the lowest below Shield Slam/Revenge/Heroic Strike on bosses which again is the reason why I choose HS.

Glyph of Cleave is more of a 5 man glyph, I find in 10/25 mans where you have other tanks helping you this glyph would be a minor help and almost useless for most boss encounters.

But yer.. this is the fury dps thread.

Mctanksalot · 01/22/09, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Goatsey

I also ran some tests with berserker in the offhand on a dummy and to come anywhere near to 35% uptime I had to have windfury totem: and this is with 296 hit rating and around 5% self buffed haste (obviously i also had goat hit aura). Even with windfury totem I only had 28% uptime after a 2 hour test. I would say that Massacre is certainly better in the offhand due to this:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8...9141643wj0.jpg

Test was simply whirlwinds and whites (wanted confirmation that it didnt proc with offhand whirlwinds) was with my current armory gear with betrayer in the offhand (this was pre 3.0.8 and i was using bladed steelboots and not melancholy sabatons due to hit rating) and with an enhance shaman to provide windfury. Trinkets like meteorite whetstone will increase the uptime of this buff as it is simply a % on hit. I suppose if you have enough hit/haste then berserker would work out better than massacre in the offhand but even then you need rng on your side. The other buffs on that screenshot are Grim toll, Torment of the weak (mirror), Spirits of the lost (t7 bonus), bloodsurge (from my 1 bloodthirst i did), Flurry (thought it best to show this was only at 80% uptime whereas it would be up a larger % of the time in raids but i dont think it could make up enough of a difference and it wouldn't be up 100% of the time necessarily in raids) and deep wounds but that was simply for my benefit.

Main hand uptime seems around 2.3 ppm so with an average on around 50-60% uptime. Berserker is very dependent on windfury/improved icy talons being available (and i suppose swift retribution aswell) It increased my uptime by approximately 8% alone.

I don't know if the patch affected berserker proc, however I presume it didn't.

You need to use BT for a higher flurry uptime. That alone can make a difference. Berserker will become more and more attractive on the OH as crit, hit, and haste increase with gear.

NobleHelium · 01/23/09, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Nospamas

To finish, a couple of questions:
I'm aware that the initial execute damage scales with attack power but is this the case for damage done by each point of additional rage (similar to the scaling on ferocious bite with extra energy)?

With my current setup I do between 15 and 20% deep wounds damage on any given fight, this is almost always less than melee and heroic strike/cleave; these two combined are always significantly larger than its value at the very least. The highest I've seen is on loatheb with 25% of damage done by deep wounds, I'm sure I saw GC quote numbers of 40%+ so my question is basically this: My gear isn't bad though I am currently stuck with 3.4 speed weapons, I've got a full epic set but could still get a few upgrades, does deep wounds start scaling up stupidly well at the final few pieces of gear?

Execute bonus damage does not scale with AP, which is why I think the Execute glyph is lackluster. I'm currently using the HS/WW/Cleave setup for glyphs. Execute bonus damage really ought to be changed to scale or there will be scaling issues down the line; even if you have to nerf the base damage scaling it's better logically than the bonus damage not scaling.

As for Ghostcrawler saying Deep Wounds making up 30-40% of our damage on normal fights (i.e. not Thaddius or Malygos), quite frankly he's wrong. He keeps saying there are warriors showing those numbers, but he's never stated who those warriors are, and any warriors who have shown their WWSes have shown much lower numbers. Most numbers I've seen are around 18-22% for a normal fight.

Windchilla · 01/23/09, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Morsexy

The real question is why was jawbone ever in his OH?

I'd based the choice off the Fury spreadsheet and pre-patch when testing on dummies I didn't see a difference in damage either way, generally a few more HSs with the faster MH.

Also, what sort of value does Fury place on the 4 piece t7 bonus? I have the option of picking it up at the expense of a decent piece of gear and was wondering if anyone has modeled it.

DarkS · 01/23/09, 5:54 AM

Even with last changes, Slam damage is hardly more than 6% of your total damage. So use Jawbone or Deathbite will not make your Slam damage change a lot. Anyway, Slam uses MH weapon damage so seems smart use your best min/max weapon on MH. Nothing changed here since years ago.

Schneeb · 01/23/09, 7:54 AM

Is anyone else seeing bloodsurge seemingly proc off itself? I've had WW and BT on CD with a bloodsurge, im finding that it seems like a heroic strike can hit marginally before you slam and you can get another proc from the HS. Obviously the netcode/latency in wow would make this possible, just wondering if anyone has seen bloodsurge that they were sure they had 'spent' after using a move that can proc bloodsurge?

Mace · 01/23/09, 8:09 AM

Yesterday I had insane procs while fighting Sapphiron.
It procced again and again before I had used WW/BT. Only thing that could have been proccing it was Heroic Strike but the interval was too fast

edit: This is the WWS of that fight
Had 28 Slam! procs from which I used 23.

• Kalroth · 01/23/09, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mace

Yesterday I had insane procs while fighting Sapphiron.
It procced again and again before I had used WW/BT. Only thing that could have been proccing it was Heroic Strike but the interval was too fast

edit: This is the WWS of that fight
Had 28 Slam! procs from which I used 23.

I checked the WWS and I didn't find any "magic" slams, they were all connected to a special attack within 200-500ms. You can see the attack + slam! compare list here; http://acdev.org/mace_slams.txt

Oh and you got 31 procs, it's just that 3 of them where refreshes, which WWS doesn't show. So in short; you got some lucky rolls on that fight. :)

Drmadrid · 01/23/09, 12:32 PM

hello ...

i dont know if what i am gonna say was brought up or not before .. but i am always surfing this topic and cant remember seeing it before ..

anyways :

after the hit removal penalty .. and yellow cap dropping even more ..

The VOA boss ..for some weird reason still keeps making me miss on some of my yellow abilities even though i had like 370+ hit + 3% from talents ... which makes me over capped

Is this some bug or something ? or is ther a hidden ability i am missing here

vytautas · 01/23/09, 12:42 PM

A not so hidden ability Choking Cloud.

Randor · 01/23/09, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Drmadrid

The VOA boss ..for some weird reason still keeps making me miss on some of my yellow abilities even though i had like 370+ hit + 3% from talents ... which makes me over capped

Is this some bug or something ? or is ther a hidden ability i am missing here

The yellow cloud gives a debuff that reduces hit by 50% along with doing damage. Hence the importance of the tanks keeping the fight mobile.

Or stack some extra hit from food and elixir for the fight.

Drmadrid · 01/23/09, 1:03 PM

oops my bad then ..guess i missed reading on that abilty since i thought it just does Damage ..

1 last question :

comparing the 2 enchants on cape :

22 agi and 23 haste rating for a warrior .. ( not a math fan so dont know how much they would be in % )

i do know Crit is always before haste for a warrior ..

But which is better ?