In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion - Page 29

Perimeter · 01/27/09, 8:57 AM

2/2 WM is actually more beneficial if you can drop some expertize in your gear for other stats.

Grayson Carlyle · 01/27/09, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Perimeter

2/2 WM is actually more beneficial if you can drop some expertize in your gear for other stats.

Why do people keep saying that? if is the only important word in that statement. Don't you think that if he had the option to, he would? Making your entire argument a waste of breath. Until he does get a set of gear that nicely lands at 18 expertise, don't you think it's worth spending 50g for a useful talent in the meantime?

Speeder · 01/27/09, 1:25 PM

Guys, quick question about hit. Have you droped hit after hit penalty on TG was removed.

Looking at official forums i can see that most people decreased theirs hit rating to yellow hit cap (hey welcome again BC!)

I would like to hear from people if they maintain hit raiting above cap or no (assuming they have gear choices)

Kolmar · 01/27/09, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by rejdakon

Nevertheless, [Glyph of Execution] provides a DpS gain, if only in the area of around 1%.

If it added even that much it'd be better. As it stands, on my last Patchwerk, it added a grand total of ((380)(4)+(380)(2.2)(1.03)(4))=4964 damage before mitigation, less than 0.6% of my total damage for the fight. Even assuming a Death Wish it's only 0.7%. I'm not arguing for BT glyph, but rather that compared to the other majors it's pretty poor. Whirlwind increases its contribution by 25% (2.4% of my DPS in that parse), Heroic Strike is worth over 60 rage/minute. At this point it seems to my mind that the utility benefits of a different glyph (Bloodthirst or Cleave for straight DPS players, Blocking or Revenge for occasional tanks) can definitely outweigh the DPS opportunity cost.

Montegomery · 01/27/09, 4:56 PM

Ghostcrawler recently made the following comment responding to a question regarding how Improved Scorch/Winter's Chill fit into Blizzard's philosophy of "bring the player, not the class":

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

It doesn’t. Forward-looking players might expect us to change that.

Even if it is shared more, 10% crit is a very powerful raid debuff -- probably too powerful. There is a melee debuff that is equally game-changing, which is something else we would like to fix.

Source

What I'm interested in is the "melee debuff" of which GC speaks. There is one debuff in the game that only affects melee, specifically Mangle/Trauma. Assuming GC wasn't confusing the terms "debuff" and "melee", then this is the only debuff he could be talking about.

Lhivera made an insightful comment in the Arcane Thread regarding why Imp Scorch/WC was being singled out over the obviously more powerful Curse of Elements/Ebon Plague/Earth and Moon. Specifically, a +Crit% buff is extremely uneven in how it buffs different specs (e.g. an Affliction Warlock gets little benefit, while a Destruction Warlock or FFB Mage nets a very large one).

Mangle/Trauma is obviously the same, with Warriors, Rogues and Druids benefiting where Shamans, Paladins and Death Knights do not. Although the debuffs benefit most the specs that provide them, Rogues and Fury Warriors do get 3-6% more damage.

It's obviously unclear what Blizzard intends to do as they haven't even posted any changes for the specifically named Imp Scorch/WC problem, but it seems likely to me that we will be losing Deep Wounds damage through a Trauma/Mangle nerf.

LodeRunner · 01/27/09, 5:06 PM

Maybe he's talking about Sunder and Armor Penetration in general. I don't know.

Excession · 01/27/09, 5:14 PM

I would guess that the debuff he's talking about is Sunder Armour. We tend to forget just how powerful it is, but it's truely huge: Rawr.DPSWarr calls it 860 of my overall 6000 DPS (14%). Windfury, SoE, and BoM are all around 500 DPS (8%) each. Now consider how much easier it is for a warrior tank to apply sunder than it is for a rogue or hunter to apply the alternative debuffs.

Nerfing sunder would also buff Armour Penetration gear, which GC has said they want to do.

Montegomery · 01/27/09, 5:23 PM

Well, if he's talking about Sunder and Armor Penetration then he's confusing "melee" with "physical" as Hunters also benefit from those. It's certainly a possibility but I think it's unlikely.

On its own Sunder Armor does favor classes and specs which rely heavily on mitigated physical damage (such as Fury Warriors), so it appears to skew balance. But the flipside is the classes and specs who split their damage types have other debuffs from which to benefit. Paladins, Shamans and Death Knights benefit from CoE/EP/E&M where Sunder doesn't apply. The pure physical DPS specs may get a bigger benefit from Sunder, but that's only a problem if you look at the situation narrowly.

Even if it's 14% of your damage, that's only slightly better than CoE/EP/E&M's 13% for casters. The only damage type out of parity with this are bleeds with the 30% bonus from Mangle/Trauma.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Sunder Armor and its counterparts were changed to be a flat% of armor instead. That way Armor Penetration would function based on the total armor (minus FF/CoR) netting an approximate 30% buff in effectiveness.

Morsexy · 01/27/09, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

Why do people keep saying that? if is the only important word in that statement. Don't you think that if he had the option to, he would? Making your entire argument a waste of breath. Until he does get a set of gear that nicely lands at 18 expertise, don't you think it's worth spending 50g for a useful talent in the meantime?

And on that, previous to the belabored nerf I was going for [Belabored Legplates], [Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress]+ [Ruthlessness] and using t7 helm instead of obsidian greathelm. So while it perhaps wasn't as ideal as the t7 legs + greathelm for expertise, I figured my combination to be a DPS increase. I should say, coupled with the hit rating adjustment together making the legs basically irrelevant. This is also factoring in that 1 garbage point we have, since I've started to feel that execute is terrible spamming it.

I think people also need to super duper relax when browsing someone's armory. I can't find the SS now, but I had some guy sign on a level one alt about a week ago and try to give me advice about how my gear was bad, or my spec was wrong, while I was in Naxx without figuring out that hmmm maybe having furious attacks and heroic fury was my TG Fury PVP spec or that I was in my PVP gear.

I don't expect people to be like "OMFG MORSEXIER, HES ONETHREETHREE SEVEN" but I wish people would at least think before they post some of this stupid crap.

Polishedhead · 01/28/09, 3:25 AM

The GM is obviously talking about "Physical" not "Melee"... you can't blame him for forgetting hunters, everyone else does!

Schneeb · 01/28/09, 4:38 AM

Originally Posted by Polishedhead

The GM is obviously talking about "Physical" not "Melee"... you can't blame him for forgetting hunters, everyone else does!

In the same vein, the 'blues' on the forums are usually Devs or Community liasons; not the glorified helpdesk that is GMs.

ZODD1 · 01/29/09, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Midgehh

Just a follow up on weapon enchants with the change to berserking. My original post is on page 6 if you need to refer back to it. Sorry if this has been covered already, I dug back a few pages and couldn't find anything about it tho.

For this test I equipped my Betrayer of Humanity in my off-hand with no weapon in my main hand and auto attack a heroic training dummy for 15min.

My unbuffed stats in zerker stance were as follows:
Armor: 13137
Haste: 179 (5.46%)
AP: 3539
Hit: 259 (7.90% + 3/3 Precision)
Crit: 36.71%
Expertise: 17

Each berserking proc takes away 656.85 armor, resulting in a loss of 12.04 AP (10.94*1.1)
Each proc would result in a gain of 440-12.04=427.96AP

The WWS of my test can be found here:WWS Loading...

Over the course of of the test (901sec) the buff was applied 9 times and refreshed itself an additional 3 times.
Maximum uptime: 23.3sec
Total uptime: 179sec
Percentage uptime: 179/901 = 19.87%
Effective AP gain: 427.96*.1987 = 85.02AP

Necessary uptime for Berserking to be more beneficial than Massacre:
427.96 AP * x% = 121 AP
x% = 121/427.96
x = .0.2827

So as long as berserking has an uptime of ~28.27% it will be more beneficial than massacre.

Judging by the results of this test massacre is still more beneficial for the OH than berserking.

NOTE: I do plan to run a test where I include whirlwinds in the next day or so when I get the time. Also, one test is not enough to prove that massacre is better or worse so if anyone wants to try it out for themselves and post the results please do so! If I missed or miscalculated anything please let me know and I'll do what I can to correct the error

I just did some tests myself, first the armorpenality doesn't matter, I always got +440 ap with 3/3 Armored to the Teeth. This would change your calculations for necessary uptime for Berserking to be more beneficial than Massacre to ~27.5%.
My stats in zerker stance:
280 hasterating
6.89%+3% hit
106 expertise rating + 5 expertise orcracial
47.96% crit in zerker with rampage up
My armory (I got the Berserking enchant on the mainhand after I did the tests) The World of Warcraft Armory

The first test i did was 15 min autoattacking without syncing my weapons (increases flurry uptime), I got 18% Berserking uptime.
The 2nd test I synced my weapons (select a target, stay out of range, klick to attack it and then go in range, this way you'll get synced hits, If you just start to attack a target wehen you are already in it's range, you'll get desynced hits)
this way I got 27% Berserking uptime after 40min autoattacking.

Narovae · 01/29/09, 6:38 PM

I'm considering dropping a point out of Bloodsurge to 2/3 and dropping a point out of imp execute in order to get 2/2 improved berserker rage.

I'd like to run lower hit so I can have more STR. I think the 60 rage a minute seems more beneficial for more heroic strikes then the 7% more bloodsurges I would get from that last point. Bloodsurges are now occasionally unusable unless you push back WW or BT anyways. The extra 60 rage for 5 heroic strikes would offset the 7% loss of bloodsurge procs in my oppinion.

Randor · 01/29/09, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Narovae

I'm considering dropping a point out of Bloodsurge to 2/3 and dropping a point out of imp execute in order to get 2/2 improved berserker rage.

I'd like to run lower hit so I can have more STR. I think the 60 rage a minute seems more beneficial for more heroic strikes then the 7% more bloodsurges I would get from that last point. Bloodsurges are now occasionally unusable unless you push back WW or BT anyways. The extra 60 rage for 5 heroic strikes would offset the 7% loss of bloodsurge procs in my oppinion.

You want to drop DPS and blow a GCD for more rage? Maybe if you're in blues or freshly dinged 80, then you'd want the rage. But otherwise, you'd be dropping a ton of DPS overall.

Thorgrim · 01/29/09, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Even if it's 14% of your damage, that's only slightly better than CoE/EP/E&M's 13% for casters. The only damage type out of parity with this are bleeds with the 30% bonus from Mangle/Trauma.

Those aren't 13% of output though; they're a 13% increase in damage. 13/113 = 11.5%.

To put it another way, if sunder accounts for 14% of your damage done, then it is a ~16% increase to your damage. It is a pretty significant debuff, and the one I assumed he was talking about. Screwing up physical vs. melee is a pretty easy mistake to make.

Morsexy · 01/30/09, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by Randor

You want to drop DPS and blow a GCD for more rage? Maybe if you're in blues or freshly dinged 80, then you'd want the rage. But otherwise, you'd be dropping a ton of DPS overall.

Well I think it would be worth discussing the merits of 2\2 imp berserker rage vs 2\2 imp execute. However I don't agree with the statement that we have lots of rage and no free GCD's, and that is why it's not a good talent.

It may be more hectic than before, but in the real world we have tons of time to do shit as Slam! sucks donkey balls most of the time.

The objective of builds with anger management or 2\2 imp berserker is to smooth out rage generation that is obviously very spiky given we can't really do Slow\Fast weapons. For me imp berserker gives me the ability to control when I need the rage, which obviously is an adjustment in play style if you don't use it, but in the long run you should see a DPS increase.

I'm not even going to try to math out exactly how Slam! works since it obviously just isn't a straight up numbers x * y issue. It overwrites for me all the time, but in pure "What do I think about this talent" Bloodsurge is F- "Not Fun To Play" and 2\2 Imp Bers is an A for a very nice filler talent. So I'm not going to say that going to 2\3 Bloodsurge is worth it for 2\2 Imp Berserker Rage, I do think though that 2\2 IBR is a very crucial talent.

Shha · 01/30/09, 8:54 AM

I disagree about the IBR talent. You can put your 1 point into it, as really the imp execute is debatable (althougn *I* like it a lot - but i can understand different opinions).

However as for IBR. Its 60 rage/min used perfectly (in reality gcd overlaps and such probably make it 55/min). 55 rage is less then ONE heroic strike if you count lost rage. So much for statistics - you get something around 1500 damage (heroic strike) per minute. 25 dps is fine, but on par with execute even if you just count the boosted damage of execute swings . If imp execute lets you execute just ONE more time that you would be rage starved instead it pulls ahead.

As for the "anti rage starvation" mechanism of IBR i find it very weak. Sure 20 rage can let you WW or BT usually, but the skill uses GCD. Which means you delay your WW or BT by 1.5 sec anyway. 95% of the time you would have rage ANYWAY over that 1.5 sec with good gear.

I Must say though, the whole discussion is the kind of "who do you love more? Mommy or Daddy?" one. This extra talent point is something to adjust to your individual playstyle. Neither talent is strong - in fact they are both extremely weak, and just flavor your spec towards your preference.

Hassansabbah · 01/30/09, 11:22 AM

(Tank for 2 years, and now, a noob dps for like 3 weeks. Sorry for grammar mistakes and the lack of math.)

I didn't understand the IBR discussion.

Lets pass 1/2 IE part...
Assume we choose to play with Anger Management, IBR and/or UW talents for rage generation.

Anger Management gives 20 rage (flowing) per minute. At perfect condition we get 30 rage per minute from 1/2 IBR. So it gives a limited control on rage but we loose 3 gcd per minute.
(Side note: We get like 7-9 rage per minute for per point invested in UW.)

But the most of fury warriors have got only 1 talent point to make a "choice".

1/2 IBR is a mediocre talent to pick (with 0/1 Anger Management),
2/2 IBR is a good talent to pick (if you got 1 extra point to invest - i haven't).

Edit: Thanks Yabanjin.

snakeinmypants · 01/30/09, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hassansabbah

Anger Management gives 20 rage (flowing) per minute. At perfect condition we get 20 rage per minute from 1/2 IBR. So it gives a limited control on rage but we loose 2 gcd per minute.
(Side note: We get like 7-9 rage per minute for per point invested in UW.)

This is where my thoughts have been. I tend to put 1/1 Anger Management before I put any in IBR or UW. Has anyone done a "field study" of this, and compared with only one point in each talent?

Yabanjin · 01/30/09, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Hassansabbah

(Tank for 2 years, and now, a noob dps for like 3 weeks. Sorry for grammar mistakes and the lack of math.)

I didn't understand the IBR discussion.

Lets pass 1/2 IE part...
Assume we choose to play with Anger Management, IBR and/or UW talents for rage generation.

Anger Management gives 20 rage (flowing) per minute. At perfect condition we get 20 rage per minute from 1/2 IBR. So it gives a limited control on rage but we loose 2 gcd per minute.
(Side note: We get like 7-9 rage per minute for per point invested in UW.)

But the most of fury warriors have got only 1 talent point to make a "choice".

1/2 IBR is not a good talent to pick (with 0/1 Anger Management),
2/2 IBR is a good talent to pick (if you got 1 extra point to invest - i haven't).

You seem to have forgotten Berserker Rage is on a 20 sec cooldown with 3/3 Intensify Rage. So 1/2 IBR would be 30 rage per minute, but it's also 3 gcd per minute.

Personally I use 2/2 IBR since I'm expertise capped and don't need 2/2 WM. I usually use zerker rage if my rage gets on the low side on a boss fight and when BT and WW are on cd.

I'm kinda interested in trying 1/1 AM and 1/2 IBR though.

Graul · 01/30/09, 3:21 PM

It may be more hectic than before, but in the real world we have tons of time to do shit as Slam! sucks donkey balls most of the time.

As much as I do not like the current mechanic behind Bloodsurge I have to disagree. Even with the overlapping procs I'm still gaining approximately the same benefit from Slam now as I was before the change. It's always been 5% - 6% of my overall damage and it still is.

Vhad · 01/30/09, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

As much as I do not like the current mechanic behind Bloodsurge I have to disagree. Even with the overlapping procs I'm still gaining approximately the same benefit from Slam now as I was before the change. It's always been 5% - 6% of my overall damage and it still is.

That begs the question, why change it? I really liked how it was before, we had a rotation and it was somewhat fluid, now it's all a mess with whats up first.

Kolmar · 01/30/09, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Vhad

That begs the question, why change it? I really liked how it was before, we had a rotation and it was somewhat fluid, now it's all a mess with whats up first.

Bloodsurge was pretty meh for anyone not raid-ready. This way it's useful at all levels of gear, and doesn't have a chance of Slam being cast 1:1 with Bloodthirst.

It'd be interesting if it worked more akin to Maelstrom Weapon, building up 5 charges, 1 per BT/WW/HS. But there have been statements that the RNG factors that have become more common in LK are intended to break up the monotony of static rotations that require only a /castsequence macro.

Graul · 01/30/09, 5:26 PM

While you could argue it was for people in all blues, that would be similar to buffing BT for anyone below a certain AP point. The change was for PvP, even if you wouldn't have used the ability with the rage you had at the time anyway. How often does someone in mostly or all blues in a PvE setting Heroic Strike? A hell of a lot less than someone in raid gear with raid buffs for sure. Anyway, as "annoying" as the ability might be now, it's still nowhere near as bad as what Rampage used to be and we lived with it. I think many of us just grew too comfortable having such an easy rotation.

Narovae · 01/30/09, 6:17 PM

As for the "anti rage starvation" mechanism of IBR i find it very weak. Sure 20 rage can let you WW or BT usually, but the skill uses GCD. Which means you delay your WW or BT by 1.5 sec anyway. 95% of the time you would have rage ANYWAY over that 1.5 sec with good gear.

I Must say though, the whole discussion is the kind of "who do you love more? Mommy or Daddy?" one. This extra talent point is something to adjust to your individual playstyle. Neither talent is strong - in fact they are both extremely weak, and just flavor your spec towards your preference.

My thoughts on this were that you could possibly reduce your hit more if you had that 20 rage on demand.

If one has around 220 hit the rage coming in can be spikey at times, with less heroic strikes coming in then someone with high hit. With on call rage from IBR you can buffer it so you don't miss time on your rotation. Im not saying I would EVER push back a WW or BT for a IBR but there is definetly free GCD time to add 20 rage in once every 20 seconds.

I agree its a "who do you love more? Mommy or Daddy?" situation and you adjust it for playstyle. Im just trying to figure out how much hit I want to run after patch and if 2/2 IBR is worth losing a point out of bloodsurge. Probably not, which makes 1/2 IBR lackluster.