DarthGreg

Can anyone here confirm my observation that Heroic Throw seems to be not delaying, but rather resetting, the swing timer? I've started chaining it off the back of Heroic Strikes and Cleaves with this macro to mitigate DPS loss from using the ability: /castsequence reset=0.2 Heroic Strike, Heroic Throw

 

Grayson Carlyle

Yes, I've confirmed this through log timestamps and posted in the simple questions thread: Heroic Throw completely resets your swing timer.

 

Charmath

I saw the expertise caps were missing here, so I thought I'd add those. Also hit caps against trash might be worth to add, if you feel like keeping a seperate set for trash and bosses. Expertise assumes 5.0% dodge against trash and 6.5% dodge against bosses.

Against trash mobs (lvl82)
White hit rating cap (0/3 Precision): 820
Yellow hit rating cap (0/3 Precision): 361
White hit rating cap (3/3 Precision): 722
Yellow hit rating cap (3/3 Precision): 263
Expertise rating cap (0/2 Weapon Mastery): 164
Expertise rating cap (2/2 Weapon Mastery): 99
Expertise rating cap (0/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 123
Expertise rating cap (2/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 58

Against bosses (lvl83)
Expertise rating cap (0/2 Weapon Mastery): 214
Expertise rating cap (2/2 Weapon Mastery): 148
Expertise rating cap (0/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 173
Expertise rating cap (2/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 107

 

• LodeRunner

The expertise numbers were like post #5 of the simple questions/answers thread but thanks for the more precise racial breakdown all the same.

 

Khab

In my post i already mention that when TG warrior chose weapon he should stay way from Haste, Armour Pen and too much Agi for now. Stick with Str, AP, Crit, Hit is the key for this early of content is the idea.

About the good old Pure Str gem after make the table good (hit cap, exp cap, 30% crit unbuff) it's the basic idea. I mention Haste, Amour Pen and Hit.

More Hit mean more and contant stream of HS flows. But when you HS more than 50% of your MH Swing, shouldn't get more hit at least for now.
I mentioned that Armour Pen and Haste is not so good for the early of content since we can't get enouch Armour Pen to make it work and Haste hurt Flurry since we dont have high crit. But later on at T8 and T9 that option will be back to the table.

I dont really rely totally on sheets, i use WWS and base my calculation on the number of ability i can perform in a fight that i want to min/max. What sheets can't do for Warrior is they can't really calculate the spiking of rage, and the number of adtional rage/wasted rage for extra stats . So we can't really look on our sheets and say : More str is better since Str benifit Slam,BT,HS dmg by XX%, or More Amour pen is better since it increase the total dmg by YY%.

Personally i aim for a balanced stats. Since raid buff can give Warrior somewhere 1000 AP, i rather working make my Attack table look good to get benifit from Raidbuff rather than i'm look good when i'm alone but don't get much benifit from raid buffs.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Maykel

With 18/51 it leaves only 2 points left to be put anywhere. And to add to this, do you leave out Rampage for the 'standard' build? My 'standard' build comes to 18/52 which leaves 1 point to play with, a point I put in Piercing Howl so our group of friends was able to do Gluth in 10-man Naxx (we didn't have any slowing effect besides Earthbind Totem of the enhancement shaman).

I'm only starting to wonder if Bloodsurge is worth the 3-points. It only does a small amount of my total damage but I guess that was because of the low crit % I still had. Does anyone have some feedback on this? Is Bloodsurge worth the 3 points even when your crit reaches an acceptable level or would I be better of putting these points in Imp Cleave/Imp Execute/Enrage?

 

Khab

Generally:

Execute attribute around 10~12% of total dmg
Slam is about 5~6% if you have around 30% Crit unbuffed

3 point for 6% extra dmg, i do agree that Rage spend on Slam can be spent on HS, but extra attack is alway good for Flurry uptime.
If you spent 2 point in Execute, i dont think that will give you somewhere 1~2% dmg per talent point.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

• Morsexy

I'm going to run naxx tomorrow with 1 point in enrage to see the relative uptime. Slam last week was only 8% of my damage even on loatheb. Yet "only" implies there is a better spot to spend those points.

So that being said, in the rage environment that we currently operate in having 10 rage executes isn't as good anything else we can do with those points that are productive in the least. At 60 with 10 rage executes you could get off hand rage gains allowing you to execute every single global which is very efficient. Since we generally aren't going to achieve that same kind of global 10 rage execute spam, it is not as important ( perhaps switching to 2 fast 1hs is more dps, but thats a different question ). IE you may end up executing every global, but its going to be for 20-40 rage.

So I think its safe to assume that 'filler points' in an ideal raid should go Weapon Mastery - > Execute - > Enrage -> Rampage -> Piercing howl - > Commanding Presence.

I personally never would raid without PH, its just simply too good a talent for 1 point. Of course this isn't really a filler point since you need 15 points spent by the end of tier 3 fury. Something like this is that ideal, whether the math supports 2\2 execute or 4\5 enrage, the point is the same.

 

Laurana

About two months before the addon, I was working on a complete combat simulation tool to provide some convenient dps data. It was originally planned for enhancement shamans only but I put some thought into an extendable architecture. Sometime along the way, I found out that there already is a quite capable simulation tool for enhancement shamans and lost interest in continuing. My question is: are there any complete combat simulations for fury warriors out there? otherwise I would try and rewrite my tool for fury DPS.

 

Tankietka

You can find informations about DPS warrior simulations in this thread: DPS Simulator.

Currently I believe there are two available simulators - in-game one from dr_AllCOM3, and standalone one from me.

 

Geebs

Can we then conclude that after the yellow hit cap of 361 and the expertise cap, strength is the most beneficial stat?

 

Senjion

Provided that when in Beserker Stance you have ~30% Crit Unbuffed.

 

Laurana

@Tankietka
I have taken a look at your code. At some points, it is quite similar to what I have produced. There are also some things that we might discuss and/or merge if you wish to do so. Examles are:
- A dynamic condition/action parser which can be used to write own rotation priority lists.
- An armory import engine
- A common GUI for both our simulations
- performance
- Other random stuff

Please send me a PM or answer here if you are interested.

 

Reknar

Has a final fury build been discussed and checked for DPS in entry-level/mid-level WoTLK raids? I've been looking over some specs, and most people have points conflicting with each other. I don't see the point in taking either heroic fury, or furious attacks in a raiding situation, as they don't increase DPS, and most fights even if not stationary don't have a knockback often enough where a reset on intercept would be needed that badly. The spec I have been looking at is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft The only argument I could see with this spec is the lack of enrage, but at only a 30% chance when damaged to increase damage by 10%, the points spent getting down to 2-hand weapon spec in arms providing a 6% damage bonus at all times to every attack seems like a better investment. Enrage also seemed to be wasted when compared to 3 points in it (another 6% damage) you could reduce cooldowns by 33% by taking intensify rage. Of course I am considered entry-level here, so weapon mastery and precision are taken to help reach the soft caps on expertise and hit, those points could be re-allocated after gear is obtained that mitigates it, at the very least weapon mastery could. If those who have taken heroic fury, or furious attacks could please explain their reasoning for it I would appreciate it, along with any ideas or changes that would increase DPS and the reasoning behind it.

 

• LodeRunner

I'm guessing those people probably wanted to try out PvP.

 

Reknar

That was my only justification, would you agree however the spec that I'm proposing would maximize DPS? I guess the 2 points in booming voice could be moved as well however, might be a better increase. But the question there then is does the chance proc of free rage outweigh the 50% uptime increase in the avoidance of a wasted GCD, and rage that is spent. (assuming they are moved to unbridled wrath of course)

 

Saizul

Some people were talking about the "utility" of furious attacks, but honestly I don't see it as worthwhile. I am pretty sure that right wounding poison is the highest DPS option for a rogue (this might be wrong, I just was told by a guildmate) and hunters can put up an MS as well. There are too many other ways of getting the debuff in the few situations where it is needed. Basically it has no place in a strictly raiding build.

Heroic fury I think is worthwhile. There are a number of fights where dropping a snare or double intercepts could be beneficial, especially considering the 1 point it costs and the rather lackluster options it competes with.

 

• Darkmyst

I'm wondering the same thing about Bloodsurge. I haven't done the math but I wonder if putting 2 of those points into Imp Berserker Rage might be better. Combined with Intensify Rage that's 60 rage or 5 free Heroic Strikes per minute. It does fire the GCD but in theory you'd be trading a GCD used on a instant slam for it.

 

• LodeRunner

A number of fights? Name one besides Gothik. Even if you had it for Gothik the gains would be miniscule at best.


I supremely doubt it. Bloodsurge Slams do 6-9% of my damage on fights. Because they are instants they can also proc Flurry and Deep wounds.

 

Khab

I was trying to point out : Sheets and simulation is not really helpful anymore : (but the mod doesn't seem to agree with me)


1st : You are limited by the gear that you can get, it's too early of the content and not everyone have their desired gear to min/max as they want.

2nd : Sheets and Simulation is just too old for new wow Mechanic for my view. Wow is 4years old and ppl should know to play their class now. If they want to min max a fight, they should record their own WWS on that fight, look at it closely and do their own maths. We should just give them the idea and some basic number to do maths.
IE: a fight that there is alot of AoE Dmg for Warrior to get Rage to continueously HS will be different than a PatchWerk. Or a fight that Warrior have to Cleave/WW Adds is different than just PatchWerk and the perfect combat condition to DPS.

3rd: for warrior the combat situation is never the same. Your rage can stay at 100 for long period or just stay somewhere 10 for a good while, and sheets don't help you with that.


On Sheet or simulation you can't take calculation of Blood Lust or Trinket Timming. On some fight Warrior get BL near 20% and it's lol Execute big number, on somes fight you will get BL right at the start, or you get BL when boss spawn addsand your guild want to BL for caster to AoE down Adds. What good is sheets for you on those situation. If you want to min/max a fight it will be a fight that you or your whole guild having trouble with, and BL or Trinket/CD timming is everything when you want to min/max a Fight.

IE : [] 18.9% Armour Pen on 20s. On some boss that goes down from 20% to 0% within 20s, you just use this trinket and see how do your White Swing feed you rage, and how do your Execute hit. It's a blue trinket, but it is better than alot of 80 Epic trinket out there for such situation.
Or Fight like Thadiuss when your have 50% of chance to melee the boss from the Front, Itemlized for more Exp is the key to victory, not str nor crit.

If there's somehow we can build an advanced Sheet/simulator for each fight, and you can chose timming that your guild want to BL at. But i guess we're too far away from that, since we don't even wanna start to talk about general min/max and fight min/max.


I think i'll leave the discussion at this point, i want to bring new air for this new patch but i guess i'm just wrong. You guys go on with your : x more AP give y more DPS, and a more Crit give b more DPS ===> AP or Crit is better.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Grayson Carlyle

Deleted

 

premed

Would this Macro actually help any? since heroic strike is On Next Attack, then you can press the macro at any time, so you would just be using heroic throw .2 secs after you press it

 

• Darkmyst

I'm not so sure. It really boils down to how much you are currently using HS I guess. You get 12 BTs a minute which translates to ~4 slams per minute (depending on crit). Moving 2pts to Imp Zerker Rage reduces your instant slams to 1.3 per minute (again assuming 33% crit) but you gain 5 free HS (assuming you currently have 5 free swings not used by HS or Cleave).

So at 33% crit you are trading 2.7 slams for 5 Heroic Strikes which I think is a win. Or am I completely off base on my logic here?

 

aylene

At your first statement that we are limited by our gear and pretty much no one has the desired gear to min / max. Well think of it this way: with the spreadsheet we can determine what parts are the biggest upgrades for us before looting the item in question and run multiple WWS parses.

Yes, WoW gets older every passing day but not everyone posses either mathematical skills or time to run WWS over and over and figure out themselves what items are the best suited for every specific fight. And if you're only using a few WWS parses to determine imagined quotes such as "These boots rocks the other boots since I got a higher dps 4 times in a row with them" are totally misleading and perhaps not the truth at all. Perhaps you only had a few lucky streaks.

Sheets will not indeed show you when you will spike up rage at 100 and keep critting offhands to stay maintain a high rage level, no one can but the RNG server-side. What sheets will do however is to calculate the approximate overall rage generation, which in moments means spiked up rage and the opposite, low rage flow.

If you don't think the spreadsheet will help you then I'm fine with that, I'd guess the rest of the community is as well. However you are correct what's the maximized items in the spreadsheet is not always the truth on gimmick fights such as standing in front of Thaddius. But then again I don't believe any warrior worth his name that possess basic knowledge of game mechanics will neglect the use of Expertise on such fights. That's pure logic.

entering godmode since '06

 

Symphonia

I would say that TG rage is way too spiky to be able to convert a rage talent/ability into an actual dps statistic. Unless you were perfect with timing your rage gains, you could end up gaining rage from Zerker Rage then critting and capping your rage. And most of the time I'm able to just spam heroic strike without worrying about rage, except of course for those unlucky misses.