It is what the forum is for, but this is a model not the real world. What are the conclusions we draw from a mathematical model that inherently assumes 2+2 = 5? Assuming this is really hard to model, 2+2 giving us a value of 5 is very close, and probably perfectly fine for all intents and purposes. It is not however, definitive proof, or in other words "Best In Slot". I think its fine to say, "here is what works for me, here is the gear I use, here is what the spreadsheet says" but promulgation of something with little real world data is something we should all be skeptical of.

I mean, I'd LOVE for it to be explained to me how over 200 hits, someone missing 15 times but with 3 streaks of 5 misses vs someone going 12 hits and then 1 miss over those same 200 hits is modeled in the same spreadsheet.

Because in situation 1, that warrior is probably screwed and in the second situation I would hazard those are barely noticeable. If I post my WWS where I do more dps than you do, with no Hysteria, using [Armageddon] MH and [Death's Bite] in my off hand, with no nobles card, no surge needle what conclusion do you draw from that? That I'm using BiS?


Fights don't last 10,000 simulations along with an average spread of misses crits and whatever.

Well I have to agree with morsexier here. The way I look at spreadsheet is simple

- Despite the modelling of misses and such , it still assumes perfect play. I am not perfect, and streaks happen as well. So I follow the spreadsheet with the simple assumption - if the 2 setups give close dps, I pick the one with more hit/haste as more "fool proof".

Regardless - my spreadsheet definitely shows your setup at 6628
and mine from last part of post at 6634.

Edit: Thats actually without AP flask, but with it its 6820 vs 6824 respectively.

Thats using last Landsoul spreadsheet.

Considering higher amount of hit AND higher spreadsheet dps i consider them superior (as in more "noticeably" superior then mere 4 dps difference would suggest)

The reason i mentioned them is actually mainly the easyness of obtaining them.
Especially the "mostly plate" setup is way less contested in typical guild then your BIS.

In fact the full plate Obsidian Helm, Valorous Shoulder/Chest, Discolored Battlegrips, Double strike legs, Girdle of Razuvious/Bracers of sentinel Huntress/Melancholy Sabatons show at mere 2% less dps then the best in slot setup - which really leads to a conclusion that maybe stepping on rogue/hunter toes isnt worth it, and its a better course of action when your guild as whole is concerned. And if you limit yourself to Malygos gloves/Sarth pants, the difference is less then 40 dps from BIS gear with just 2 leather pieces.

Can you specify what gear you're using for 6624 dps?
And the spreadsheet does model miss streaks. What spreadsheet are you using anyways and what version? I don't think it's possible to break 6650 with default buff settings.

I'm using landsoul's 2.304. Input your suggested items into 2.304 virgin sheet and it should come nowhere close to the gear I currently have equipped or even the default 2.304 sheet setup.

RNG is RNG. It's no different than when Moresexier had the current record on Patchwerk with something like only 5 misses total. I have never adhered to the "minimum hit is all you need" philosophy and probably never will. Yes, it works for some just fine, but when I get rage starved for a second or two consistently each fight it really stands out in the same way spiking past 100 rage seems like a waste to me. Whether or not it's actually a DPS loss or gain though is another story.

In the end we can say, aim for what is fun for you and effective enough to play well with. However, I don't think this discussion is really useful for >>In Depth<< Fury DPS...

I came across this specific subject when I was due to test the time it actually takes for the switch to rend and back. To make it easier to read in the EJ-CODE format I removed the whole target and target of target parameter-line. This first test was to build 25 rage at least, then go to Battle Stance to rend and back to Berserker Stance again to do a Whirlwind. I'm aware that this is not the correct rotation but it was merely to find out the time it takes for me on the live servers (and not in theory) to do the stance-dancing part of rending.
This is what I found:

At 0.070 I cast Battle Stance. I then fail to cast Rend at 0.242 and 0.409 since the server doesn't notify that I've switched from Berserker Stance until 0.795. Nothing strange about that.

After that strange things appear that at least I am not aware of;

At 1.319 I enter Berserker Stance
At 2.084 I cast Whirlwind.

Rend caused a 1.5 second gcd at 0.795 when I cast it, yet I could recast Whirlwind at 2.084, 2.084-0.795 = 1,289 seconds later. I did, thus, by stancing somehow reduce the global cooldown of main abilities when entering stance cooldown.

I thought out another test specifically to check this phenomenon which goes like this:
WW - Battle - BT - Zerk. I am aware that using BT instead of Rend risks not having rage immediately.

4.078 Whirlwind
4.444 Battle Stance
5.191 Bloodthirst
5.853 Berserker Stance

5.191 - 4.078 = 1.113 seconds gcd.
5.853 - 4.078 = 1.775 seconds for the whole WW-Battle-BT-Zerk rotation.

I then found out what should be the best way to test this: I start in Battle Stance with full rage. I do a BT, switch to Berserker Stance, do a WW, switch to Battle Stance and finish with a Rend. 3 abilities that by themselves with no stance dancing causes a 1.5 second gcd. I removed as many irrelevant parameters and lines as possible from the combat log to make it a little bit easier to read. If someone is interested in the full combatlog try PM-ing me (I believe I saved the full combatlog somewhere).

1.870 BT
1.912 Berserker
3.174 WW
3.674 Battle
4.394 Rend

This means that the global cd window on the main abilities looks like this:

BT -- 1.304 secs -- WW -- 1.220 secs -- Rend

This means we got 3 abilities each causing a 1.5 second global cooldown of in a mere 2,524 seconds. The last rend will cause a regular gcd due to no stancing but the point is that something fishy seems to be going on with gcd's. This might be of value to look into especially for arms warriors but also for fury warriors if we ever rend again.

For the record, the delays of our abilities due to global cooldowns that we find "in practice" are highly affected by our latency which is nothing new. But are these inconsistencies above explainable by latency only?

Below are a few gcd's with no stancing, just refreshing rend.


Which means:


5.377
6.895
8.496
10.032
11.615
13.200
14.837

The delays between rends are as following:

1.518
1.601
1.536
1.583
1.585
1.637

Which is perfectly normal.

I've heard grumblings that the patch today may have stealth changed the yellow hit cap to 9%. Can anyone confirm/dissprove?

i know 2 dances
1 - with Heigan
2 - The Prodigy - Warriors Dance.mp3 so dancing for rend - waste of time IMHO

about hit cap - ( if you are not ally drenai aura -1%) is 9 % for yellow hits (6 % for 80lvl mobs + 3% ( for 83 lvl Boss) . ( not in 3.0.9 ) It was always

Aside from the lack of capitalization and crazy parentheses, this is just very wrong.

Hit against even-level mobs is 5%, that has always been the case. Hit against 83 has been ~8.6%, 9%, and as of recently, 8%. See Is melee hit cap really 9%?

Hi, Im new to Elitist Jerks and Ive read through nearly all of this post and I am starting to think i am going the wrong way with the stats I have.
I have seen some posts saying haste isnt very good and some saying that it is, i currently have 413 haste with 3721 attack power (i may be slightly wrong about the attack power as Im posting this at work) and 33.6% critical strike rating.
Im not in the best gear as I havent been lucky enough with some of the drops but I have got a few good pieces.
Basically here is a link to my characters wow armory page and i was hoping somebody could clarify wether i have gone the right way with my stats and wether haste is actually good for my dps to have as much as i have.

The World of Warcraft Armory
Im sorry if i am asking about something which has been mentioned allot earlier, i know haste has but the posts i have read seem to contradict themselves so i am unsure of wether its better as Im not the best with numbers and I dont have the money/extra gear to test this myself.
Thank you for your time.

Replying to Russian: I do get approximately an extra 60 attack power from my flasks along with them being 4 hours which is useful for raiding. Due to the extremely low drop rate of frost lotuses I am currently making no money from Alchemy or Herbalism as i simply dont have the time to farm herbs for hours.
I intent to get Beserking enchant as soon as I can but at this current moment in time I am extremely poor (I have 30g left as we finally did malygos and we wiped alot so i spent nearly 500g on repairs. The same for the other enchants, but Im not sure wether changing my Icewalker enchant is a good idea as i have just gone down 30 hit rating and Ive noticed a large drop in my misses which is leading to me being rage starved for short periods of dps time. I havent tested this properly with recount yet but i intend to as soon as I can.

you have not bad gear but not best enchants ) so you need change massacre - for berserk ) change icewalker - for great assault ) and gloves great assault - for crusher ) + change gem in belt 16 hit for 16 str ( you have cap of hit and all you have above 8% its waste of your dps) and you need change your profs ) you have very good profs for farming gold ) but in the raid you havent buffs from your profs .

melee hit cap is really 9 %

Yellow Hit
Base Miss: 9.0 %
Precision 3 %
Gear: 0.0 %
Actual Miss Chance: 6.0 %
Hit Rating Needed to Cap: 197


White Hit
Base Miss: 28.0 %
Base Hit Rating Cap: 919
Precision 3 %
Gear: 0.0 %
Actual Miss Chance: 25.0 %
Hit Rating Needed to Cap: 820

Sadly highlighting something in a different colour doesn't make it true.

Is melee hit cap really 9%? - there are multiple examples in this thread showing that the yellow hit cap is 8%.

Wherever you're getting your info from, it's wrong. Saying it again and again, doesn't make it right. I provided a source and proof, you provided nothing.

If you have serious problems with being ragestarved all the time, I suggest using a spec something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I've noticed, that on miss-streaks, IBR helps a lot to get you back up. Unbridled Wrath is also pretty much useless, since once you're get your swings hit, you should be standing at enough rage to keep your rotation up and running. I pop IBR whenever I'm low on rage and BT/WW are on CD.

In Soviet Russia, Melee caps you!

Maybe we'll get lucky with a 2.5 speed 2h TG usable weapon in Ulduar.

It is my understanding that UW only procs on successful white hits. It seems to me that all UW will do is make the rage spikes a little more. It will do little to smooth rage generation, as you won't get it on misses or yellow hits. My white hits give me more than enough rage to use multiple abilities.

I see what you are saying about it generating rage spikes but not all spikes take you to 100/100 rage. It still seems to me that 2/5 in this talent opposed to putting the talents in longer shout duration is better because it means you have more chances to dump rage on heroic strikes.

I'm working off old data (See: this old thread), but I don't think 2/5 UW is really all that great.

From the data it looks like the average proc rate for 5/5 UW is 14-15 PPM, effectively 14-15 rage per minute. Logically 2/5 UW is 2/5ths as effective, making it ~6 PPM, or 6 rage per minute.

The effective cost of a Heroic Strike is 12+(Whatever rage your white swings generate). Let's assume 30 rage from white swings, making the total cost 45 rage. It will take 7.5 minutes of continuous attacking for 2/5 UW to generate enough rage for one Heroic Strike.

Dual Wielding might affect this, but even doubling the effect only reduces the timeframe to 3.75 minutes. For many of the people here boss fights don't even last that long.

Effectively you gain utility and convenience from shout range and duration, but next to nothing from UW.

For anyone interested UW is effected by dual weild. It is roughly 3 rage per point per minute per weapon. So basically 6 rage per minute as a TG warrior for each point. 2/5 gives you 12 rage per minute roughly. It does little to smooth out rage generation. Longer shout duration and effect gives more utility for the same points, but neither talent is really a must have other than to fill the point requirements of the next tier of talents.

Using this logic, i dont see how longer shout duration and effect gives more utility for the same points.

Commanding Shout(3min at 10 rage) = 3.33 rage/min
Commanding Shout(2min at 10 rage) = 5 rage/min
2/5 UW (2weapons x 6rage) = 12 rage/min

Assuming CS is constantly refreshed:
2/2 BV saves (5.00 - 3.33) = 1.667 rage per minute
2/5 UW gives 12-5 = 7 rage per minute

Unless I missed something (hurried this at work), 2/5 UW seems to win here. This does not take into account the GCDs that would be needed to refresh CS more often. The benefits of 2/5 UW will actually increase if you are using BS instead of CS and have the BS glyph.

Also, if another warrior in your raid is in charge of the shouts and you have a ret pally, BV is useless and a waste of points.

my guild runs with 2 well geared TG warriors, myself (lilhoss) and tectavious. Both of us are similarly geared but tect has the upperhand. There are many encounters in naxx, most of which we are 1,2 in damage. sometimes he wins, sometimes i do. it is at this point in gearing that i have found that it just doesnt matter. yes, havinng betrayerX2 is gonna boost you a lot, but for the most part RNGers take over. on Thaddius last night, he beat me by 10,000 damage over a 4-5min fight. on that fight, it comes down to him having 1 execute crit for 20k+ and me w/ a 10k execute non-crit. having 20ap and 0.2% crit more than me just doesnt matter. who cares if he uses ravinous waist and i use girdle of chivaly? everything looks good on spreadsheets, but that is ONLY THEORY! this game is all about luck. gear raises the MINIMUM damage you can do, but if you are unlucky with the random number generator and your buddy gets lucky, it doesnt matter. yes, making sure you hit your rotation right is skill, but once you master that, its all luck. you get a white crit, you get more rage. if you are unlucky you get less rage. that might affect your HS spamming. you get a streak of 5 crits, you get rage, but then you have a 5streak of non crits and OOOh, no flurry so your HSs are slower. thats what hurts. IN THEORY, having a 33% chance to crit should keep flurry up all the time, but we all know that to not be true.
the bottom line is that we can discuss what gear is better in what slot all day long, but in the end it all comes down to luck against the RNG. YES, gear can up your chances of getting lucky, but that only goes so far. at the gear lvls we have from farming naxx, swapping out one belt or bracer for another isnt going to make a difference (given you dont go below hit cap).