Not sure about unbridled wrath but anger management gives 66% of the rage per second per talent point that imp. berserker rage does without the need to waste globals.
Not sure about unbridled wrath but anger management gives 66% of the rage per second per talent point that imp. berserker rage does without the need to waste globals.
It's more trading than wasting because you'd be using less globals on instant slams.
I'm not so sure. It really boils down to how much you are currently using HS I guess. You get 12 BTs a minute which translates to ~4 slams per minute (depending on crit). Moving 2pts to Imp Zerker Rage reduces your instant slams to 1.3 per minute (again assuming 33% crit) but you gain 5 free HS (assuming you currently have 5 free swings not used by HS or Cleave).
So at 33% crit you are trading 2.7 slams for 5 Heroic Strikes which I think is a win. Or am I completely off base on my logic here?
You can't compare it like that. At 33% you are trading 2.7 slams for 5 Heroic Strike Bonus Damage. Those would have been mainhand autoswings regardless, and they would have done damage. To do this correctly you have to figure out what your average mainhand swing damage is. Compare that to you average HS. The difference is the damage gained. Take that number and multiply by 5 for your "5 free Heroic Strikes". If that number is significantly larger than the damage from 2.7 average damage Slams then I'd consider it. I'm still really keen on more instant attacks though, so it would have to be a stupidly huge margin of damage.
You can't compare it like that. At 33% you are trading 2.7 slams for 5 Heroic Strike Bonus Damage. Those would have been mainhand autoswings regardless, and they would have done damage. To do this correctly you have to figure out what your average mainhand swing damage is. Compare that to you average HS. The difference is the damage gained. Take that number and multiply by 5 for your "5 free Heroic Strikes". If that number is significantly larger than the damage from 2.7 average damage Slams then I'd consider it. I'm still really keen on more instant attacks though, so it would have to be a stupidly huge margin of damage.
Good point. Which means it is clearly not the way to go (unless my in the head math is way off) because 2.7 slams is going to be (*at least*) 5-6K dmg and the bonus dmg from 5 HS is going to be more like 3K. And the better your gear gets the more ground it would lose as the HS bonus becomes less and less of the damage from using HS. At crappy low end gear levels it might makes sense but for any reasonable gear level it wouldn't be good.
I've cleared all the raid content out right now as TG. I must say, I'm not disappointed with the dps results. Yes, it does work out to be 95% of the same thing you did at 70, but if you enjoyed it then, it's fine now. My spec isn't maximized for dps, but I have been able to hit cap for specials, gone way over the expertise cap including Weapon Exp, and I've got my base zerker crit up to about 34.4%.
My personal opinions are as follows:
1. I don't spec piercing howl. We do Gluth with mage nova's instead. It's not a bad single point talent, but if you don't need it, then you don't need it. For learning gluth, it can be very valuable.
2. I have both booming voice and commanding presence maxxed. Imp cleave, for me, is generally a blah talent improving an ability I use predominantly on trash. UW is almost unnoticeable when you can MH crit 60 rage. 3 minute max commanding shouts and almost 5 min battle shouts are nice. We don't raid with a ret paladin so I often run battle shout. On occasion, I run commanding.
3. Enrage is a beast farming talent and it's fair in a raid. I have it specced to full. I don't have the DW CD reduction talent. I think the DW reduction talent is something I'd pick up before the next round of content to fully maximize dps possibly at the expense of enrage.
4. Bloodsurge > imp zerker rage². That's right - squared. That's not a mathematical relationship really, but just an opinion. The cost of a heroic strike is probably 40-50 rage. Everyone wants to think it's 12 with imp HS but if you were to let 1 MH swing go through, it would provide enough rage for 2 HS. So, having imp zerker rage gives you enough rage for 1-2 HS every 20 seconds but it's not a sustainable amount of rage/rotation. Letting one of those HSs become a regular attack would provide enough rage to still HS the others. Imp HS might buy you 2-3 HS a minute. Raid buffed, I'm up to about 45% crit for almost 6 slams a minute.
5. I find HS usage to be very difficult to control. With bloodsurge, you can spend 70 rage in one set of specials. I'd rather get the specials off quickly than slide in one extra HS. At full rage, I will HS maybe 50% to keep my rage full and allow better rotations. If you are short rage for BT, you might have to wait almost 2 seconds for another hit. I think haste gear helps the smoothness of play. It shortens the "not enough rage" periods, allows for more closely paced executes, and buys you a little white damage. I don't gem/enchant for it, but I have it on plenty of gear (over 10% passive haste). It's on a ton of stuff.
6. I start pulls with 5100 ap minimum. This is without a 10% buff. With procs/10%, I'm likely over 6k much of the time. With any improvement in gear, this may slide higher. Landsoul's spread sheet shows that I am nearing the crit/str crossover (it may be a way off still). As such, I have a lot of crit gemmed into my gear instead of straight 16 str. Having flurry and rampage up (and mirror procs - internal CD??) is a priority provided it doesn't cost me a ton of DPS.
Good point. Which means it is clearly not the way to go (unless my in the head math is way off) because 2.7 slams is going to be (*at least*) 5-6K dmg and the bonus dmg from 5 HS is going to be more like 3K. And the better your gear gets the more ground it would lose as the HS bonus becomes less and less of the damage from using HS. At crappy low end gear levels it might makes sense but for any reasonable gear level it wouldn't be good.
The significant part of HS has never been the bonus damage, it's always been that it gives it a to-hit bonus (even with the reduction from TG, an autoattack at the special hit cap only has an 86% chance to hit versus a HS at 100% chance to hit), ensures that the attack won't glance (a significant DPS loss) and makes it eligable for Impale. The bonus damage is just icing on the cake, albeit somewhat more delicious icing in WotLK since the new HS ranks got a rather large boost to the bonus damage.
I've seen Strength mentioned... well, quite a bit here, as being the best way to gem as it was back in the heyday of TBC. Is that still true, assuming that they do actually fix the offhand Deep Wounds (and BT and Execute) damage bug? Especially with Mangle or Trauma in the raid (and the appropriate Meta), Crit adds a rather huge amount of damage to your attacks as well as ensuring Flurry uptime, which is pretty devastating if it's ever down for more than a second or two. Even ignoring somewhat gimmicky fights (Malygos tends to emphasize Crit by usually ensuring you'll lose Flurry during Vortexes, for example... whereas Loatheb doesn't) it is a pretty huge DPS gain. I know I've been topping damage meters while stacking crit, although this is as much a factor of my good luck with drops and DKP stockpile as anything else compared to the rest of my raid.
I'll be poking around the spreadsheets and simulators; I haven't looked at them in a while.
Has anyone taken some WWS logs to analyze the value and up-time of Enrage? I am also curious whether the slime near patchwerk will trigger it.
The gear I have picked up has put me far over the expertise cap, so I will be checking this out tonight on a full nax clear. I assume it will be great on the AE-damaging fights where we already shine.
With healing being trivial, I may have a tough time staying out of the blizzard and rain of fire
I'll jump ahead of everyone to start (perhaps continue previous) discussions regarding our oldtime favorite ability Rend which has gotten a quite huge overhaul in WotLK. Since the launch I've been using [Glyph of Rending] (in other words one more tick) and my personal experience is Rend actually is worth using these days! We're not really using the 3rd major glyph spot for something specific towards raid dps anyway! My talents for the one who's lazy enough to not check armory: 18/53 with Imp Rend and 3/3 TM.
On a dummy without mangle or any raidbuffs (non-DW and with only my own battleshout up) my rend does ~4k dmg to a dummy above 75 % hp (3942 to be precise) over 18 seconds for a mere 10 rage. This equals to 219 dps which does indeed sound quite weak. When re-applying Rend with Death Wish it bumps up to 4825 dmg over 18 secs, still non-mangled. This equals almost 270 dps, which means with a mangle debuff up about 350 dps. Note that this is still without flask, kings, SOE, Unleashed Rage and the likes.
In a raid there are a few conditions that you need to consider before applying rend, since battle stance is required. These conditions are:
Non-execute phase
Cause no delay whatsoever to your BT/WW cycle
Minimize rage loss from going to Battle Stance and back
The non-execute phase is self-explanatory, executes will highly likely outweigh keeping a higher uptime on Rend.
And causing no delays to your BT/WW Cycle is also pretty self-explanatory. Since our BT/WW Cycle got shortened I've found the best time to shift to battle stance, apply Rend and shift back appears to be after the first Bloodthirst in the cycle, while WW will still be on cooldown. It has to be a non-critical BT since a critical one will provide us with a better use of gcd's (Bloodsurge).
Why we should dump rage to minimize the rage loss is quite obvious as well. Since the rage will be lost we might as well queue a HS. However this should be done carefully, if you're unlucky you might end up queue HS over the stance-switch which should be avoided at all times due to the not-so-unlikely rage-starved seconds that could follow. Applying rend has to be done smoothly and should never delay the BT/WW cycle for maximum effect.
Cons with rend that comes to mind:
With lack of focus you might end up delaying your BT/WW cycle thus likely decreasing your dps.
If flurried you might get white swings with less AP since we're not in berserker stance. Also, for maximum bad luck you might be flurried to get both your MH and OH swing during your shift to battle stance on the last charge of Flurry. This means you might end up lacking rage (since you're non-flurried) to use BT when you get back to berserker stance again.
That being said I definately would like some more input from you other warriors on this somewhat reborn ability. Is this even worth it despite my efforts to make fury somewhat more than spamming the cooldowns when they're back up. Perhaps Rending is only useful while the target is above 75 % hp and below that percentage will never risking your BT cycle override Rend-dps? Perhaps it's only useful while your target is above 75 % hp and you got Death Wish up? Perhaps it's useful all the way down to the execute phase? Perhaps it isn't useful at all?
There are many questions rising, however the most important one first. Is rending worth it?
PS. Haven't seen this small piece of info around yet. [Indestructible Potion] is worth popping for another 58 AP (not included berserker stance and Unleashed Rage-buff). And yes, you can do haste pots as well after 1 min.
Edit: Mind slipped on the armor potion, should be correct now.
I never thought of using indestructable pots over haste, but is the 60 ap bonus they provide better than a 500 haste boost
It's a 58 AP boost for two minutes versus a 500 Haste boost over fifteen seconds, or 62.5 Haste if you average it out over two minutes.
The Haste potions should still be better (Haste isn't great as a stat, but the sheer amount of it from the overpowered potion outweighs that), especially as you can stack it on top of Death Wish. What makes this rather nice is that if you drink the potion _before_ combat starts you can use a Haste potion 2m after combat starts, which makes the Indestructible Potion 'free' as you normally can only use one per combat.
I believe, anyway; I haven't tested this personally, but I'm going to give it a shot tonight.
I never thought of using indestructable pots over haste, but is the 60 ap bonus they provide better than a 500 haste boost
The great thing about it is that you get both effects. If you read the tooltip again it says the potion cooldown is 1 minute but the duration is 2 minutes, hence you can use a haste potion when the potion cooldown is up when you get in combat.
You gotta wait some time tho, 1-2 seconds to anticipate combat, 3-4 seconds for the boss to be aggroed, maybe 1-2 seconds more for threat. Even then all of your self buffs take 4-5 seconds to be applied, same with sunders they take at least 10. It's 1/3 a potion really if you do that. Not worth the gold.
You gotta wait some time tho, 1-2 seconds to anticipate combat, 3-4 seconds for the boss to be aggroed, maybe 1-2 seconds more for threat. Even then all of your self buffs take 4-5 seconds to be applied, same with sunders they take at least 10. It's 1/3 a potion really if you do that. Not worth the gold.
Well, yeah, that's why it'd be worth using the Indestructable ones for this purpose. If you could still only get one potion per combat (CD stops ticking down when you're in combat) it wouldn't be worth using.
Well keep in mind that the armor buff does not disappear when you pop your haste pot so it's actually up for the whole 2 minutes duration, thus making it a bit more powerful. And I reckon the economy is different on other servers but on my server these pots goes for 1 g each, that's less than what I pay for my strength food. In my eyes that makes this a valid buff for any hardcore warrior on the fights that require some maximizing (although such no fight has been encountered yet).
I averaged a 43% crit rate yesterday and a 43% crit rate on Bloodthirst and Slam still only did 4% of my total damage. This is also with the 10% more slam damage from the 2 piece set. I checked a couple other WWS reports from last week and my Slam has yet to go above 4% of my damage. I've gone out of my way to make sure I used it too anytime it's up sometimes not even hitting WW on cooldown to use the limited time I have to get that instant slam off. I know you can crit BT, WW, then slam but I really wanted to make sure at times I didn't miss a single one to clearly test how useful this talent really is for 3 points.
Overall I'm not thrilled with Bloodsurge. The rotation is too unpredictable. Sometimes it leaves me with little rage or not using HS as much as I'd like. It really is a high maintenance ability for only 4% of my damage. So I'm going to be testing this now:
I wouldn't glyph for rend as a fury warrior but I get a lot more use out of imp rend than I do for 2% parry while DPS'ing. I only use it once at the start of every fight where the boss/mob/trash etc. lives longer than 15 seconds. It does anywhere between 4-5k damage for an instant ability that only costs 10 rage if the mob is above 90%. Is that a bug btw? Untalented it does more damage on mobs above 75% but when I put 2/2 in the tool tip reads 90%.
Anyways, I also got some use out of imp charge on trash and some bosses being able to charge (charge minor glyph), rend (4-5k damage) switch stances, WW immediately since I have 25 rage with TM, and by the time the gcd is up, I usually have enough rage to BT immediately. If I can't charge I just bloodrage, rend, switch stances and my autoattacks give me the 25 rage needed as I switch stances to WW immediately and then BT after that gcd.
Right now my chance to avoid being dodged is 5.75% without WM. With the end game gear I plan to use which is the best for those slots as an Orc I'll have 179 expertise rating which is 6 rating above the cap. So other than reaching that expertise cap, I value crit and then hit the most on my gear. I don't go out of my way to get strength on gear since every item has a ton of it. As for gems, I'm going to experiment with crit gems for yellow and crit/str for red crit/stam for blue if the socket bonus is worth it.
I'll report back with some numbers to see how good enrage is across most encounters and what kind of results I'll find stacking crit from gear/gems. The only thing I can't experiment with yet is Berserking vs. Massacre in any capacity. Abyss Crystals are just too costly and I don't have weapons worthy of those enchants. I know it was mentioned earlier in this thread but there doesn't seem to be any conclusions in regards to which enchant is better for TG.
There are many questions rising, however the most important one first. Is rending worth it?
I don't believe so.
TG's rage generation is far too random and high (two two-handers swinging at sub 3.0 speed). It's impossible to predict and you'll end up wasting enormous amounts of rage trying to use rend.
TG's rage generation is far too random and high (two two-handers swinging at sub 3.0 speed). It's impossible to predict and you'll end up wasting enormous amounts of rage trying to use rend.
Rend is definitely not worth using as part of any rotation as a fury warrior. However, 2/2 Imp rend is worth it just to start of all fights as it does a lot of damage on mobs above 90% hp. Instant ability costing 10 rage and doing 4-5k damage with mediocre gear is definitely worth using at least once. But once you're in zerker stance, stay there.
Only use rend to start the fight if you're at 0 rage (about to charge) or 10+ rage from bloodraging on a mob that won't die within 15 seconds. If you have like 70 rage and are about to intercept a new add that is at 99% hp, don't switch stances to rend it. 2/2 Imp Rend isn't a waste either. It will do a lot more DPS for you than 2% to parry.
Rend is definitely not worth using as part of any rotation as a fury warrior.
I'd like something that backs up your statement other than "Rend is definitely not worth using as part of any rotation as a fury warrior.". I have nothing against comments as long as they actually are based on something I can relate to theory-wise. Are you concerned about flurry-drop? Less AP on two swings? Rage-loss from stancedancing? Please collaborate why you don't find rend definitely worth using except in the start.
Originally Posted by Nexx
I don't believe so.
TG's rage generation is far too random and high (two two-handers swinging at sub 3.0 speed). It's impossible to predict and you'll end up wasting enormous amounts of rage trying to use rend.
A long answer incoming now, to both of you actually. To start I'd like to actually change my question if rend is worth using at all. It has actually already been answered! It is indeed useful the first thing you do in an encounter. Let us instead move on to the next question on my mind: Will Rend be useful anytime except the first thing you do when you enter an encounter?
This is different, I'm absolutely sure you can use rend more than once in the start and if I'm interpreting you two correctly you do not find rend useful at all after the first application. Since this is the in-depth fury dps discussion I will go as deeply as my logical skills can go in this late hour. I might slip my mind once or twice but here goes;
I agree with you that TG's rage generation is spiky, but far too random? I'm currently at expertise/hit cap, mind you that TG implies a lower randomness of white hits since we have to cap it higher than we had to with 1handers due to its innate penalty to damage-dealing abilities. I'm also running ~47 % crit with my current gear thus obviously having a decent shot at getting flurry up.
Why do I find posting my raid buffed stats important? Well let's take a look at one of the issues with stancedancing and thereafter lacking rage. Namely not having flurry up. Whenever we don't have flurry up rage will be an issue while stancedancing. Take a look at where I'm suggesting the best moment to rend is: Straight after a whirlwind which is an instant with a decent shot at getting flurry up. Whirlwind will of course not always crit, but if memory serves they did fix the offhand whirlwind flurry bug? Even if they didn't you'd still have a mainhand swing that can proc/refresh flurry.
Conclusion of this can be made easily: Don't try to rend if you're not flurried.
Entire truth? No. In fact sometimes I find it more useful to rend while not flurried since I can get rend up without swinging in battle stance at all. But for now I'm following the statements and responding as good as I can.
Now on to Nexx's concerns: It is impossible to predict the rage generation and that we'd end up losing tons of rage trying to use rend.
It is impossible indeed to know for sure, but with the great gems Blizzard has provided us it is quite likely we will not be rage-starved. Anyone out there actually suffering from rage-starving except when not critting right away? To the second part of your statement that we'd end up losing tons of rage trying to use rend I'm going to try to interpret what you're saying. When are we losing rage? My guess is that you think I'm saying we should switch stances even if we're high on rage just to keep rend up? Nope, sorry that's not what I'm saying if that's even what you mean?
I'm going to skip ahead and presume you meant the rage we'd lose from switching to battle stance. My answer to anyone concerning that is to look closer at the BT/WW cycle and my suggested position of any possible rending. First we'll be dumping quite some rage in the BT (30) and the following WW (25) and we're likely to have some excess rage so we might as well queue a HS (12) in on the mainhand that will most of the time swing during the time we're using these two instants, as well as removing the excessive rage we'd get from the otherwise white mainhand swing.
This means we'll be dumping 67 rage before switching to battle stance. TM saves us 25 rage which means if we're on 100 rage we'd only lose 8 rage points (67+25 = 92 rage used/stored, 8 rage wasted). And that is counting that we're actually up on 100 rage, which usually doesn't happen when queuing HS accordingly. Is 8 rage points this major loss you're speaking of Nexx?
My next guess is therefore: no it's not those 8 rage points that's the major loss you're concerned about. Rather the fact we might get white swings off while in Battle Stance. Sometimes you'll make it back to berserker stance before they swing and sometimes you don't. However if storing rage you can avoid this by having enough rage to both queue another HS (12) + Rend (10) while switching to battle stance, you'll be saved by the rage from TM. To go in-depth (this is where we're doing that right!?) there are a few different scenarios that occurr during this short interval of time.
Scenario one:
Pre-switch just after dumping rage from BT/WW I'm finding myself usually around 15-20 rage since I'm rarely capped on rage when I HS accordingly. Sometimes I get mainhand white swings before I can enter battle stance and with almost 50 % crit they often tend to boost my rage up very high. Since we're out of instants to dump the rage rending IS actually a waste of rage so let's not.
Scenario two:
Pre-switch I get a HS off right when my whirlwind hits my target. This will land me at around 15-20 rage again, but now I know for sure I won't get another mainhand swing before switching stances (which is the case in the scenario above) since it just went off on the HS. That's the beauty of TG, you know there's an interval you can actually use between your mainhand swings. I can then switch to battle stance and rend. If I'm not flurried I can even make it back to berserker without losing any rage at all.
Scenario three:
Same as scenario two but this time I'll have both flurry up and heroism I'll most likely get a MH/OH swing while in Battle Stance. I won't sugarcoat it, this is probably the biggest weakness and the part where you'll lose most rage if you lose any at all. But then again, how much is that rage worth? If I'm flurried/heroism'd, will it totally cripple my rage generation for the following BT? Probably not, but let's save Bloodrage for it eh!
So conclusion to the rending part: If you want to play it totally safe, don't rend without Bloodrage ready just in case. I know for sure I'll keep rending away anyway. Bloodrage will be on a 40 second cd with reduction talents and Rend will be up for 18 seconds glyphed. And since I never stated to keep rend up at 100 % uptime this isn't any of my concerns.
I thank you two for posting your opinions since it led me to highlight the rending part for real, I have now come to realize TG doesn't make Rend harder to use, it makes it easier! You'll have quite a measurable window where you can do whatever you want with the rage your fed with. But yes the spiky rage generation means we're also playing at higher stakes, which only makes it even more fun if you ask me.
Final conclusion: I do not vouch for trying to keep rend up 100 % of the time. For now I'm certain however that it is useful on more occasions than just as the start ability. I'll stay certain until someone can show me my flaws in assumptions and scenarios, at which point I will humbly agree Rend perhaps is not worth using except at the very beginning. But until then I'm still looking for more detailed input than just "Rend is not worth using at all."
I averaged a 43% crit rate yesterday and a 43% crit rate on Bloodthirst and Slam still only did 4% of my total damage. This is also with the 10% more slam damage from the 2 piece set. I checked a couple other WWS reports from last week and my Slam has yet to go above 4% of my damage. I've gone out of my way to make sure I used it too anytime it's up sometimes not even hitting WW on cooldown to use the limited time I have to get that instant slam off. I know you can crit BT, WW, then slam but I really wanted to make sure at times I didn't miss a single one to clearly test how useful this talent really is for 3 points.
Overall I'm not thrilled with Bloodsurge. The rotation is too unpredictable. Sometimes it leaves me with little rage or not using HS as much as I'd like. It really is a high maintenance ability for only 4% of my damage.
Also I'm seeing at least 5% damage from my Slams, if not more, per boss fight. It caps out at 9% on Loatheb which, of course, is a total gimmick fight but still.
I agree with you that TG's rage generation is spiky, but far too random? I'm currently at expertise/hit cap, mind you that TG implies a lower randomness of white hits since we have to cap it higher than we had to with 1handers due to its innate penalty to damage-dealing abilities. I'm also running ~47 % crit with my current gear thus obviously having a decent shot at getting flurry up.
Random = Streaky
Most of the time in 25 mans I'm sitting at 80+ Rage, using HS at every swing while keeping my other abilities on cooldown. It would lower my dps if I chose to pop a rend in a high rage environment.
If there was a time to rend, I'd peg it in a giant miss streak (even I get those still at nearly 400hit) where you only have 10 rage. Again this is hard to predict unless you have some mod that's tracking every swing and gives you a guess when you have loads of misses that potentially could be in your future.
There's too many variables to try to land this perfect condition of getting a rend off:
A. Both swings have just landed, and will not occur in 2.5 seconds
B. You have just used WW
C. You don't have any rage higher than 25, optimally 10
D. You aren't under the affects that could hasten your swing -- Heroism/Bloodlust, Flurry, or Windfury
E. Bloodthirst will be up in 1.5-2.5 seconds to use up any additional rage
F. You aren't taking damage that could give you additional rage
G. Bloodrage is available when you switch back to zerker
We Cleared 25 man naxx tonight and I noticed the low frequency of Enrage. It never proc'ed in aoe-raid damage fights (i.e. Saph, Thaddius). I was pulling 300 or so dps less than the week before on most boss fights. It seems that 5/5 Enrage was total garbage as it was rarely (if at all) up on any boss fight.
Most of the time in 25 mans I'm sitting at 80+ Rage, using HS at every swing while keeping my other abilities on cooldown. It would lower my dps if I chose to pop a rend in a high rage environment.
If there was a time to rend, I'd peg it in a giant miss streak (even I get those still at nearly 400hit) where you only have 10 rage. Again this is hard to predict unless you have some mod that's tracking every swing and gives you a guess when you have loads of misses that potentially could be in your future.
There's too many variables to try to land this perfect condition of getting a rend off:
A. Both swings have just landed, and will not occur in 2.5 seconds
B. You have just used WW
C. You don't have any rage higher than 25, optimally 10
D. You aren't under the affects that could hasten your swing -- Heroism/Bloodlust, Flurry, or Windfury
E. Bloodthirst will be up in 1.5-2.5 seconds to use up any additional rage
F. You aren't taking damage that could give you additional rage
G. Bloodrage is available when you switch back to zerker
Actually not all above is true.
A. Both swings doesn't need to land at the exact time, it is optimal yes but it doesn't totally take away the possibility of rending.
B and C goes hand in hand if you re-read my post. After using BT-WW and queuing a HS you've managed to dump 67 rage and prevented the mainhand from getting you excessive rage points. With 3/3 TM that gives with your 80+ rage situations 13+ rage mainhand count and probably around 20+ due to offhand, and there you are at your almost perfect rage situation to rend.
D. You can be under the effect of all three and all you would lose is 2 swings with 10 % less AP, maximum 4 swings with a really bad timing, but yes this one I can see problems with how much these swings really mean vs the gain from that specific rend. At the moment I myself refrain from rending while under the effect of Heroism.
E. Bloodthirst doesn't need to be up in 1.5-2.5 seconds at all. Where did you get this statement from? Did you intend to BT in battle stance to not lose any rage at all before switching to berserker?
F. This additional damage can be taken both ways, in Battle Stance we'd take less damage! Besides, if there is raid damage we'd still be taking that damage in berserker stance so any concerns to not gaining enough rage to BT/WW should be out of the way if so is the case (the major rage loss you're concerned about is not being able to keep your BT/WW cycle or?)
G. Bloodrage available is the absolutely safest route but isn't at all a necessity to rend in the first place.
What your describing is more or less the perfect circumstances to rend, but do you really reckon everything has to be in perfect order before you can rend? I'm more leaning towards "If Heroism/BL never rend", "If rage>50 with BT/WW on cd never rend" and so on.
Something nobody has pointed out yet is that the 4/5 T7 bonus is a major (relatively major anyway! haha) incentive to use rend.
Personally i think it does have potential, if you're a very skilled player. By that i mean if we was to get a robot to play our characters and he calculated exactly what to do at every moment then performed an action based on those calculations then i have no doubt that Rend would be worth using.
However i think 80-90% of DPS Warriors ingame and 50-70% of DPS Warriors reading this thread will not be able to get a DPS increase from Rend due to human error. This is due to the very strict timing and criteria for a minor DPS boost at the risk (the risk varies alot depending on your current exact situation) of losing lots of DPS.
One final thing i have to ask which is completely unrelated, about Vortexs on Malygos:
Facts:
Whirlwinds and Heroic throw can always be used during them.
Sometimes i'm able to go full out dps during them, and sometimes i'm not.
My question is, does anyone know why we can sometimes attack during it and sometimes not? I'd bet it is completely random but it's worth asking anyway because if someone can figure out a way to ensure we can attack during the Vortexs it will increase DPS significantly.
I've tried facing the boss at middle, facing the boss at ~10-15 yard range none of it helped (it still seems to be random), what i've not tried is standing facing the boss in a certain position, for example facing south or facing northeast... anyone have any ideas?
Oh, and one more thing again completely unrelated. About the strength Vs crit 'discussion'. I'm crap at maths so really apologies for not having maths to back up my opinion but given all the benefits of critting (and the devastation that is flurry not being up) i'm not entirely convinced that strength is better.
12/02/08, 2:36 PM
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