MildCorma

With the changes to imp zerker stance, i'm having trouble figuring something out. Will BoH still be the BiS going into Ulduar? Atm i'm getting that it won't be... but its not like I am trusting my calculations as there is alot of guess work involved. 101str becomes 115 after the patch and 125 ish in a raid environment compared to a flat AP bonus that BoH has, but the AP difference dosnt look like it outweighs the 19 extra DPS BoH does. Any clarification on this woud be awesome, im yet to see a BoH from 11 KT kills so no doubt one is due tonight, just don't want to pass on it if it is still my BiS! I would rather a DK or paladin got it if my BiS is going to change in a week or two tbh.

 

hellord

There are better weapons in ulduar so I am pretty sure it won't be Bis.
The sword from General Vezax Hard mode is a ilvl 239 weapon and itemized with STR (Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion - Item - World of Warcraft), and until we can see the whole loot table of Ulduar 25 this seems the BiS

ArP Whore

 

wamai

Think there was a misunderstanding there. What was asked was the BiS weapon going in to Ulduar, not the BiS weapon counting Ulduar loot, which should be a trivial question to answer/figure out.

Just changing around slots in Landsouls fury spreadsheet - comparing [Armageddon] with +30 extra str using the +phoney stats in comparison to [Betrayer of Humanity] with -25 AP, again with the +phoney stats. Have the same problem anyhow with 13 kills and no BoH and think DK's and pallys get a similar gain from str as we do as fury on the PTR so won't be passing for the next BoH dropping either.

 

Rauch

"Less work" is the key issue here. I'd rather wait for better itemization and a class re-balancing. That's what people are unsettled about. Instead of the plate dps items being BiS, we have to use a talent to make them BiS. That's why you hear people refer to these types of changes as "band-aids", because they are. The underlying problem is too much stamina on dps plate items. You fix that, even if it's more work and even if it takes long to re-balance classes, then you don't need band-aid talents like AttT and this change to Imp. Serker Stance, plus it opens the class/spec up for different (and possibly more appealing) talents. The intention is good, I agree, but they kind of phoned it in without much thought to how we are ALREADY geared and enchanted.

In my view, this basically adds a penalty to improved berserker stance for wearing leather and agi/ap based items (glass half empty). According to the devs, they don't balance around BiS leather, they balance around BiS plate. I feel that initially we'll get around the same or probably more attack power than we had with BiS leather, but we'll lose out on the extra offensive stats. That amounts to a nerf for current leather wearers, imo. If you don't wear leather, then you should be just fine, if anything, it'll be a buff (glass half full).

 

hellord

True, indeed sounded like a silly question anyway I don't think you can easily trade 19 dps (it's roughly 266 AP equivalent)

ArP Whore

 

NoTaeves

Stronger talents/Weaker gear or Weaker talents/Stronger gear we are not going to get both. Either way we are going to end up in the same spot, I dont see why so many people have issues with this. We have a problem if our dps is low or if we dont scale well.

If they chose to buff plate itemization and nerfed our talents to compensate there would be a 1000 cries of our talents being lackluster or why did you nerf us type posts. Blizzard is balancing the game, we will be wearing plate and now we will be balanced around that. Seems fine to me.

 

yrch69

With the change to Imp Zerker Stance, I have been re-evaluating my personal stat values on Fury DPS pieces. I was curious how other people's loot values compared to my own (specifically Crit / Haste / Arp).

I wasn't able to find any existing threads on any of the predominant forums (WoW, EJ, Wowhead) which referenced numerical stat values for Fury warriors.

Here are my stat values updated for 3.1 (Build 9733)

Socket........2112
Str.............132
Crit............90
Arp.............70
Haste..........65
Agi.............60
Hit..............55
AP.............50
Armor........1
Exp............0

 

Animosityftw

From MMO Champion:

Improved Berserker Stance now increases strength by 4/8/12/16/20%. (Up from 3/6/9/12/15%)

Looks like they went through with the buff to 20%. Now I'm curious just how much AP we are losing in a fully buffed raid setting comparative to pre-3.1. I'm guessing it might just even out.

 

Polishedhead

While you're right in what you are saying, you're missing a few logical things.

Firstly making our already best stat 20% better goes against everything they have ever told us about us having to make choices; for example with gems.

Secondly it means the majority (anyone thinking we'll have a good ammount of strength jewelery in the future is crazy) of rings/necks/cloaks in the game will benefit other Physical DPS classes better than us.

Finally it goes against rule #6 in the book of logic that says if something is broken you fix the problem, not change something else.

Now you tell me one real downside to putting Agility linked with Strength as AP is linked with Agility.
No, it's not. It's that we have less stats on plate. 4 rather than 5.

You missed the point, this isnt about giving us benefits.

I apologize again for straying off topic but its hard to keep quiet when people are saying things that are wrong.

 

catch22atplay

AT +20% fully raid buffed for me it didn't even out. Although it's close. It's still a 0.47% dps nerf before calculating in zerking chant or AP trinket procs. I didn't factor in the Greatness card either. It'll end up being for me total about a 0.64% nerf after adding those to my results. Results will vary depending on what gear you have. I don't think anyone in epics will see a gain. People with a mixture of epic and blue may. In 10 mans depending on what buffs you have will determine if it's a gain or not. 5 mans and solo it will be a gain. I didn't bother checking 10 man, party or solo though. So just a best guess.

 

catch22atplay

That's not actually true. It's only a part of the problem. And it can be worked arouind. While i can say let's do this to fix us and you can say the same it still comes down to the final result. 100+ ways to balance us. Not one way. And any way it gets balanced will still need to be rebalanced next expansion at the latest. Too many classes and too many specs and too many talents. Crit is worth x to one and haste is worth x to another. There is no real answer. The only answer is to balance as needed.

EDIT- Checked it live vs PTR and solo was a loss of 15AP with Battleshout up. I'm getting the feeling it's a loss under all conditions. Thank god it's only a minor loss.

 

hellord

To be honest I don't see this problem at all.

1) All plate users now have a big STR multiplier except arms has only 4%.

2) Haste will give most benefits to Fury and retri then unholy dk, then the others, arms last.
Retri and dks now also get 25% more benefits from haste.

3) I will quote myself about the crit part from agility

4) Expertise and hit should not be a problem to cap where needed

5) Arp will mostly affects warriors and blood dks

After all, changing stats on plate nowadays is probably easier than ever.
Fury is getting a slight "disadvantage" on plate since they get more benefits from more stats and will still prefer better itemized gear.

ArP Whore

 

catch22atplay

Well personally i think if they changed AttT to 5AP/180 armor we may be getting closer to where we need to be ie 5% below the pures *cough*. Probably still a hair low. But it would close that gap a little bit. I'd hope they at least do this or reitemize some gear or both. As both may be required.

 

NobleHelium

As has been pointed quite a few times in the last few days, Armored to the Teeth doesn't really scale as tiers go up. The armor difference between Ulduar plate and Naxxramas plate is almost negligible. Buffing AttT may solve the issue for one patch, but in tier 9, it'll fall behind again. Reitemizing plate is a far more permanent solution to the problem.

 

1337beast

Last PTR build:

Good news? 20% STR is about 260STR for me, not factoring in kings,horn/totem, darkmoon card proc.


I think it's still a little nerf, but blizzard made that change what they really intended this to be: something to force us into wearing plate, not something to nerf us even further after the TG nerf.

 

catch22atplay

Personally i don't much care about 3.2 I'm talking about now and AttT will increase all 3 specs damage now.

 

Kaan

Don't be short-sighted. You don't care, but IT cares anyway. It is a band-aid fix. It's making fury warriors inflexible because they can't properly wear leather/mail anymore and it's therefore a straight nerf in almost all circumstances. First of all a lot of warrior's need to change their gear to match the changes - until they do, they are strictly nerfed (in particular Rings, Trinkets and Necks). Second, we lose in fact DPS because we can't wear the better itemized Leather/Mail-items anymore, because without +10% AP they are too weak. This is a loss of about 100-250 DPS depending on gear (now, Ulduar we will see). So, why is it a band-aid fix? For example: you can play Arms and wear every slot Leather. Arms has only +4% Strength so isn't bound to Plate. This means the "fix" isn't logical, because it only works half the way.

The positive thing about this is, you more or less don't need to bother with "other classes items" anymore and blizzard can react easier on class problems such as too low DPS, because there aren't Leather AND Plate Fury's anymore, but only "Fury Warrior's". Therefore, when "the" Fury Warrior's DPS is too low, they remove for example the TG-counterbalance or buff AttT then everything is fine - what they couldn't do otherwise, because some Fury Warriors with Leather would be even more overpowered.

 

catch22atplay

We're running out of time. I don't want to be dead last in damage in Ulduar. I'd rather be balanced now as opposed to 3.2. The future can wait. If we had another month of testing fine. But we don't have a month. These are all bandaid fixes. Rebalancing will be required again and again and again. It's not our job to program this game. If we wanted to fix the game we'd scrap it and start from the beginning. And you know what, it will still need to be balanced again. Unless every single ability you have does the exact same thing between all classes. Make just 1 ability not follow this and you have a balance issue.

You will not loose 100-250 dps. This is approx a 1% nerf for people wearing 3 pieces of leather. It's approx a 0.5% nerf for people with no leather. Don't toss out the Adroit gloves as they are still superior to live plate. Let's not exaggerate this change.

 

Graul

With the currently updated change I gain 41 AP from gear. But then that's not factoring in the AP lost from the [Mirror of Truth] proc, Berserking and my racial. It's also not factoring in the additional 60 AP gained from Greatness. At a glance it's a wash and that's with two leather pieces and a weapon that grants AP over str. It's already been said before, it's a step in the right direction but it's still not enough. To make leather and mail truly undesireable they either need to make it so we simply cannot wear it, or they need to change their strange mindset about purposely keeping the stats down on plate to reign in DPS. Warriors are not the only plate wearing class that can DPS.

 

catch22atplay

Greatness procs 300 strength which equates to 300*120%=360 which equals 720AP where as before it equated to 600AP*110%=660AP. Gain = 60AP up time is max 33% so 60AP*.33=20AP gain

Mirror proc changes from 1,100AP to 1000AP. loss=100AP up time is max 16.7% so 100ap*.167= ~17AP loss

So to total up those 2 we end up with a net gain of 3AP

Zerk proc was 400*110%=440AP and is now just 400AP a 40AP loss. Figure a max uptime of 100%. Ya i'm being generous here.

Combining the 3 is a net loss of 37AP

Since you gained 41AP from gear but loose 37AP from the above procs you still came out ahead by 4AP.

Orc racial procs 322AP uptime max is 12.5% 354*0.125= ~40AP where as before it was 322*110%=354 354*.125%= ~44AP a loss of 4AP

Combining everything equates to net zero. No gain and no loss.


Not that any of this is exact math. It's just a quick look so nobody freaks out. Weird how close the results come out now isn't it.


That was for solo. For a raid with +10% stats and +10% AP buffs it looks something like this. Although not exact either.


Greatness procs 300 strength which equates to 300*130%=390 which equals 780AP*110%=858AP where as before it equated to 300*110%=330 which is 660AP*120%=792AP. Gain = 66AP up time is max 33% so 66AP*.33= ~22AP gain

Mirror changes from 1,200AP to 1,100AP. loss=100AP up time is max 16.7% so 100ap*.167= ~17AP loss

So to total up those 2 we end up with a net gain of 5AP

Zerk proc was 400*120%=480AP and is now just 400*110%=440AP a 40AP loss. Figure a max uptime of 100%. Ya i'm being generous here.

Combining the 3 is a net loss of 35AP

Since you gained 41AP from gear and loose 35AP from the above procs above you still come out ahead by 6AP

Orc racial procs 322AP*110%=354 uptime max is 12.5% 354*0.125= ~44AP where as before it was 322*120%=386 386*.125%= ~48AP a loss of 4AP

Combining everything equates to a 2AP gain

And as you can see there wasn't much of a difference between the 2 examples. Your results will vary.

 

aylene

Is there a certain reason as to why you don't include Kings in your napkin math regarding Greatness?

And the Mirror proc has a way higher uptime than 10 %, calculations including Landsouls spreadsheet shows 15+% uptime. Are you perhaps confusing uptime with proc chance (since the proc chance is 10 %)?

I know you said it's just a quick mathematical look, but it's a fairly overlooking one to the issue at hand here.

entering godmode since '06

 

catch22atplay

I redid my quick napkin math after entering the game. Yes i agree uptime is greater than 15%. I also got Greatness wrong and redid that as well. I did not say my math was exact. Hence no kings etc. The issue at hand here is the title of this post. Which is "In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion". If i post what i believe are exact numbers i will say so. If i post inexact numbers i will say so as well. Which is what i did. Again it was to keep people from freaking out.

 

rejdakon

Well, Blizzard said they wanted Fury Warriors to wear plate. I think that's a good thing, basically. And from the numbers I get from landsouls's spread (crudely modified with current PTR-changes), the change serves this purpose well. With two rings, cloak and neck AP-pieces, one piece of mail, MoT, Greatness and one AP-weapon (never seen a second BoH drop), I even get a slight increase in DpS.

Also, for currently known Ulduar-gear I get Plate items as BiS for almost every slot (except shoulders and gloves) and neck and two rings itemized with STR are shown to be BiS as well. So, while the change is indeed a band-aid, Blizzard seems to have achieved its goal - for the time being.

Also, while the 10% TG-nerf is beyond what was warranted (and itself not a very elegant solution), it leaves room for better plate itemization. In the End, this might be the second step to finally make plate itemization good instead of awkward. While I don't believe that we will get agility as an additional stat on plate (not until the final tier at least), reducing stamina in exchange for a little bit more strength does not seem too unrealistic, although this would very likely require toning down DKs (and possibly ret Paladins if their damage is brought to adequate levels through the buff to seal of blood) a bit.

 

sejer

Except this is pretty much the opposite of what GC said earlier, there will be more strength jewelery in the furture.

Like the poster above says, Blizzard's aim is to get furies back into plate. How they achieve it might be a 'band-aid' but I don't really care so long as I get to wear mostly, if not all, plate.

 

Polishedhead

GC said:
"There are also more rings etc. in Ulduar with Strength, and more leather with Agi instead of AP."

I said:
"it means the majority (anyone thinking we'll have a good ammount of strength jewelery in the future is crazy) of rings/necks/cloaks in the game will benefit other Physical DPS classes better than us."

These statements do not conflict... more can still be a vast minority.


Something i've just noticed however that didnt alarm me the first time i read it is this:
"We realize this change lets Arms off the hook... for the moment."

I bolded the key words. I foresee more changes coming

edit: Also, does anyone have any idea what "and more leather with Agi instead of AP" means? I fail to see any Leather gear that has no AP released in 3.1.