After about a week of playing Fury in Ulduar after the nerf, I'm severely dissapointed with the struggle in having comparable DPS. I am finding that if I have little buffs (apparent in some ten man groups) and sometimes full buffs that I cannot keep a tight WW, BT, Slam! rotation sometimes and also heroic strike enough to get more Slam! procs. Especially in cases where I have to sunder and keep sunders up my rotation really sucks due to rage. I am used to having enough rage to do mostly whatever I want and now that's not the case. In fights where there are no incoming damage and don't generally favor melee I find myself squandering at the bottom 1/3 of the DPS charts, sometimes behind the arms warrior.
Is anyone else experiencing the same kind of issues and noticing a big change in not only their damage output but also their rage use?
Is anyone else experiencing the same kind of issues and noticing a big change in not only their damage output but also their rage use?
That is exactly how I found it on the PTR and Live. Patchwerk Test in particular was bad for Fury. Iron Council and Hodir favours Fury with constant incoming damage, but cooldown damage like Auriaya, Kologarn and Ignis it was very spotty. Vezax with just about no incoming damage at all left Fury very wanting. It feels like the rage took more of a hit than just the 10% damage loss, which made me think about retesting the actual rage/swing. I'm currently enjoying just how frantic it is to DPS and debuff as Arms though (though the jury is still out on interrupting spell casts).
I've certainly noticed a drop in DPS. Previously, 5k wasn't shit but shit in a 25 man, now I'm struggling to stay above 4.5k, and really having to monitor my rage for heroic strike use. One bad HS and a couple misses, I miss BT for that rotation and actually end up waiting for WW to come off CD. DPSers in my guild have never really been rockstars, so myself, an arms warrior, and DK are all hanging around in the top 3-7 or so. A week ago it was a given we were going to be #1-3.
Depressingly, before the patch one of our combat rogues couldn't come close to myself and the aforementioned DK/arms warrior, while our mutilate rogue (who's actually a good player) could give us a run for our money. Now the mutilate rogue is trouncing us, which I don't really have an issue with, he's a great player, moves out of the fire, gems/specs properly, knows his class and rotations etc. But this other rogue is just shiteous, it seems like due to his class, he automatically gets #2 on the DPS meter (losing to the mutilate rogue by 500-1k dps, such is his horribleness). It's frustrating seeing such a disparity in the mutilate rogues DPS (IIRC he was around 7k on Kalogarn) and my own on the same fight (~4800). I realize they're "pures", so yes, they should out DPS "hybrids", but it seems like things may have swung too far in the opposite direction.
As for the rage generation, Anger Management is looking much more attractive, and I think I've used Bloodrage for DPS purposes more in the past two days than I have in the past month.
Yep. I haven't been to every boss in Ulduar and I also don't have 2x Betrayers, but even with full raid buffs I found myself just using my rage on WW, BT, and Slam procs, with barely any heroic strikes (unless my trinkets/cooldowns were up). I finally decided to just try arms to see how the rage gen is.
Also, it may just be me, but it's extremely noticeable in execute range. Then again, I haven't been getting bloodlust below 20%.
I think I've used Bloodrage for DPS purposes more in the past two days than I have in the past month.
Same here. I found myself mashing my bloodrage key just so I could keep up my rotation after a bad heroic strike, thinking that it can't come off cooldown fast enough.
I can only agree that rage generation without external damage sucks. I switched to arms, hated it , but now i feel more comfortable with this spec, .. and even find myself competitive. We dont have good rogue in guild so only ferals seem to be OP on tank and spank fights (XT).
So far only fight where fury is good for me is Razorscale - whirlwind heaven, adds, and high importance of pummel.
Is anyone else experiencing the same kind of issues and noticing a big change in not only their damage output but also their rage use?
This has been the case for me as well. It pretty much comes down to AE damage during the fight to supplement rage income to be competitive. Its even worse in 10 mans now than it was before if you dont have the proper synergy. This is primarily the reason why I think the rage system (might be easier fixed a different way though) could use an overhaul because its pretty miserable how dependent fury is on synergy. Fury is nearly unplayable on Vezax due to the -20% haste debuff, I have to interrupt on the fight and between that and debuff my dps is total garbage.
Sadly, there is no other dps warrior in the guild that I can easily compare my damage to and I was fury probably 90% of the time this week so I will have to wait until next week most likely to compare my dps as arms. Mutilate rogues do pretty crazy dps now and even though its greater than a 5% difference I am more concerned with how well ferals are doing in comparison to fury even when they have to mangle. I have only played with arms on a few fights but it feels a lot better because rage is never an issue at all and not miserable like fury is currently. :/
Yeah it happened to me as well. I was fury all the way up until a few days ago when I had a very disappointing DPS output in Ulduar.
I switched to Arms and put on my armor pen gear - I currently have 436 armor pen rating from gear, grim toll equipped (very close to cap according to the calculations). I noticed a SIGNIFICANT DPS increase compared to my Fury output. I am actually hovering around the same DPS output I did as Fury right before the patch.
Fights such as Widow and Patchwerk. I sustain close to 6k DPS with just normal raid buffs (people dont like to give me Hysteria or ToTT)
What it seems to me is that switching to Arms at this point in the game with the armor pen gear pre-Ulduar amounts to greater DPS than Fury atm.
I believe Fury will be better after Ulduar armor pen gear is gained.
Since Arms abilities mostly depend on Weapon damage, Fury in the armor pen gear from Ulduar (much more strength on those armor pen items) will pull greatly ahead due to the scaling.
Currently Fury needs (if boss armor is 10643 and debuffs are applied before calculation: 104.05% armor pen or 1281.90 armor pen rating to cap (before grim toll). With grim toll proc, then that 49.68% is reduced and you would only need 54.37% armor pen or 669.84 armor pen rating to be capped.
When that point is reached, then strength would be our mandatory stat again and Fury should pull ahead of Arms.
Since Arms abilities mostly depend on Weapon damage, Fury in the armor pen gear from Ulduar (much more strength on those armor pen items) will pull greatly ahead due to the scaling.
Currently Fury needs (if boss armor is 10643 and debuffs are applied before calculation: 104.05% armor pen or 1281.90 armor pen rating to cap (before grim toll). With grim toll proc, then that 49.68% is reduced and you would only need 54.37% armor pen or 669.84 armor pen rating to be capped.
When that point is reached, then strength would be our mandatory stat again and Fury should pull ahead of Arms.
Thank you so much for pointing this out, I was trying to get this kind of analysis on why Fury will get better in Ulduar gear for like several days now in "simple questions/answers" thread. Guess it's not that simple after all.
I'll share my opinion as member of an average Guild. Our players are almost equal skilled/geared. We've done 7 Bosses in Ulduar. My DPS as Fury (19/52/0) is now competitive. Yes, I noticed the -10% Damage on TG but before the nerf I was almost always Top1 in DPS and I feel that this was unfair. Now I can compete head to head with rest of melees and until now I haven't felt rage starvation that avoids me use HS. Anyway I hope that the flat -10% damage will be a temporary solution until Blizzard can do a deep look into Fury Tree
Is anyone else experiencing the same kind of issues and noticing a big change in not only their damage output but also their rage use?
I honestly don't have this problem. But I've been using a slightly different spec than other people ever since halfway Naxx, which might probably make the difference. I picked "Improved Berserker Rage" once I had enough expertise to not need 'Weapon Mastery' anymore in 3.0. (Which turned out to be a smart choice with the talent being moved to the arms tree in 3.1)
At the moment I constantly try to weave in Berserker Rage into my DPS rotation whenever I have a free GCD. And I can't say I ever have any real rage issues. The 20 rage the talent gives every 20 seconds probably isn't solely responsible for that, but also the fact that when Berserker Rage is active you get alot more rage from taking the slightest bit of raiddamage. And this should be active close to 50% of any fight.
Besides that my playstyle is pretty straightforward... Just popping haste pots and Death Wish (and now also Wrathstone) during heroisms.
It seems to do fine for raids for me at the moment. On fights where there is alot of raiddamage or short fights, I've no issues with sometimes ending on top of the DPS meters with 6k or above DPS. Competing with the rogues and DKs.
Fury generally seems to favor fights that are either:
- Short (to get most use out of death wish + heroism)
- Require alot of movement
- Fights where there is lots or raiddamage
- Fights where there are lots of occasions where your whirlwind (or cleave) will hit more than 1-2 targets
So I can't say I'm too badly disappointed by the 10% TG nerf so far, although I do notice that alot of other (less dedicated / theorycrafting) fury warriors seem to be struggling at the moment.
After about a week of playing Fury in Ulduar after the nerf, I'm severely dissapointed with the struggle in having comparable DPS. I am finding that if I have little buffs (apparent in some ten man groups) and sometimes full buffs that I cannot keep a tight WW, BT, Slam! rotation sometimes and also heroic strike enough to get more Slam! procs. Especially in cases where I have to sunder and keep sunders up my rotation really sucks due to rage. I am used to having enough rage to do mostly whatever I want and now that's not the case. In fights where there are no incoming damage and don't generally favor melee I find myself squandering at the bottom 1/3 of the DPS charts, sometimes behind the arms warrior.
Is anyone else experiencing the same kind of issues and noticing a big change in not only their damage output but also their rage use?
I have experienced the same. This has even gone so far that I have switched to Arms, performing about 300-400 DpS better than in Fury (although I have not yet had enough time to test this intensively), even though I completely lack practice in playing PvE-arms since 3.0. Those 300-400 DpS are a pretty noticable difference.
In my opinion, they have gone over the top with the TG-nerf. 10% less damage means that Rage income has been coniderably nerfed, leading to a pretty noticable decrease in heroic strike usage. I very often get the argument from non-warriors that 10% less rage cannot make that much of a difference. But 10% less rage does not mean 10% fewer heroic strikes, it is much more than that as a good part of our rage was and is is used for our rotation, leaving only a part of it for heroic striking. 10% less total rage therefore constitutes a much higher portion of our heroic strike rage. And this is pretty noticable in fights with no incoming damage.
Landsoul i'd have to agree with Arya. 2 points in imp zerker rage is a must. Same as i did when i started Nax. This must be spammed when global cooldown permits whether you need the rage or not. I have it macroed with a Heroic strike. Also a Heroic without it. For Ulduar and all this damage we take we need to take advantage of any extra rage we can get. I'm still getting used to having to spam this but here's the numbers from friday. Notice i also have 4/5 in Unbridled Wrath. I've always found it to be very effective. Done extensive testing on it and it works for me.
I was able to Heroic strikes quite often and it ended up being my 2nd to 3rd highest total depending on the boss. Used Cleave instead on some bosses. For the 25 man raid i was 4th, 3rd and 4th on the kills that nite. 3 rogues in the raid btw. 1 of which was my equal in dps pre 3.1 We always competed for #1. On 1 boss the rogues were about 800dps above me. The other bosses weren't so bad. I did not get Hysteria once fyi. They didn't either.
I'll stay Fury. I'm doing just fine. Won't break any records. Never did anyways. Won't be #1. But i won't be embarrassed either. Not as bad as i thought it would be. My personal view. I'd have done worse in 25 mans if i was Arms tbh. Haven't tested 10 mans yet. But i'm fairly sure i'd do better as Arms in 10 mans. Lack of buffs hurts Fury that much ie low on rage=crap dps.
I may try putting points in Enrage again. I've had so so results in the past. But maybe Ulduar will make it effective. Just don't like the idea it isn't useful on all fights.
Last edited by catch22atplay : 04/20/09 at 11:30 AM.
I haven't noticed a huge difference in raids, mostly because of the incoming damage and I try to keep about 12% hit total if I can and have a higher crit rate than the other warrs which helps with the HS glyph.
I did notice, especially in 10 mans, that losing 10%ap/windfury buffs was huge and very noticeable. So I can see that being an issue depending on group comp. Also, Death Wish timing can be the difference between 1st and 9th.
Of the people with these issues, how many are using ArP gear? I am just keeping Str as main stat and collecting ArP on the side until I have close to the cap.
How are people using execute? Since rage is spotty sometimes I just use it as a dump instead of HS when BT/WW is on cooldown.
It seems that Fury is very borderline with 203 DPS weapons. The warriors that I have talked to that seem to be doing well as Fury are sporting double Betrayers.
Not having 2x BOH I am also finding rage to be very spotty. Just able to keep up a WW/BT + slam proc with very few heroic strikes.
The only fight so far where I have been able to have a good proportion of HS usage was XT-002
In 10 man groups where full buffs aren't readily available, I still manage to stay somewhat competitive, only losing to a mutilate rogue every so often or the occasional warlock. Pre 3.1 in 25 mans, I managed 6500-6700 dps on patch with Betrayer and Armageddon in terribly long kills, and I'd have to say it was quite ridiculous how far out in front I was.
Last night we did Deconstructor in 25man. Our melee group generally carries the dps of our guild, and between myself, 2 mut rogues, a DK and an enhance shaman, we managed an average of 6500 dps or so on that fight, but that is one of the few fights I have seen anything close to pre 3.1. Now I just get frustrated in raids because one of the mut rogues and the DKs in our guild don't know what they are doing, but can make /castrandom macros and top the charts. At least when I would top it, there was some skill involved, not to sound cocky or self-centered. The -10% damage nerf is slightly severe, but if they were to do something where it didn't affect our rage generation, I think we would be fine in terms of dps.
P.S. I just tried finding the WWS reports on our guild forums but they have expired, non upgraded account ftl.
So far in 25 mans except for rogues and sometimes feral druids I am staying competitive. Our arms warrior has been neck and neck and HS use has been pretty easy but not what is was before patch. I think once they bring rogues back a little the dps race will be pretty close. I would say I’m not upset by the 25 man performance of fury.
In 10mans I have cleared 8 bosses so far and the rage problems have been large. I was doing demo / sunder duty so that did not help but the DK was beating me by a good 1000 dps.
Current zerker stance unbuffed stats
AP4074 Haste 2.90% Hit 201 HP 21578.05
Crit 37.27% ArP 36.86% Exp 26 Armor 11592
Did really well on Kologarn, really bad on Council, OK on XT. Haven't been back to Naxx on the warrior, so no idea on some of the static fights like Patchwerk.
Rage starvation is a lot more common though, that's for sure. I'd occasionally get unlucky RNG pre-3.1 and be twiddling my thumbs, but I'd say I'm seeing that at least twice as much as before.
In 10 man groups where full buffs aren't readily available, I still manage to stay somewhat competitive, only losing to a mutilate rogue every so often or the occasional warlock. Pre 3.1 in 25 mans, I managed 6500-6700 dps on patch with Betrayer and Armageddon in terribly long kills, and I'd have to say it was quite ridiculous how far out in front I was.
Last night we did Deconstructor in 25man. Our melee group generally carries the dps of our guild, and between myself, 2 mut rogues, a DK and an enhance shaman, we managed an average of 6500 dps or so on that fight, but that is one of the few fights I have seen anything close to pre 3.1. Now I just get frustrated in raids because one of the mut rogues and the DKs in our guild don't know what they are doing, but can make /castrandom macros and top the charts. At least when I would top it, there was some skill involved, not to sound cocky or self-centered. The -10% damage nerf is slightly severe, but if they were to do something where it didn't affect our rage generation, I think we would be fine in terms of dps.
P.S. I just tried finding the WWS reports on our guild forums but they have expired, non upgraded account ftl.
Yeah I noticed that on Deconstructor as well. I did it as Arms in 10 man and hit 6k DPS for that entire fight. When I did it as Fury I only had 2.5 - Either I was really unlucky that first time I did it as Fury or extremely lucky as Arms. That fight is also not as reliable due to the chance you have to move out due to debuffs you get.
Thank you so much for pointing this out, I was trying to get this kind of analysis on why Fury will get better in Ulduar gear for like several days now in "simple questions/answers" thread. Guess it's not that simple after all.
Again, thank you very much.
No problem. I was wondering why fury would pull ahead as well, and this seems the most reasonable explanation.
Currently Fury needs (if boss armor is 10643 and debuffs are applied before calculation: 104.05% armor pen or 1281.90 armor pen rating to cap (before grim toll). With grim toll proc, then that 49.68% is reduced and you would only need 54.37% armor pen or 669.84 armor pen rating to be capped.
When that point is reached, then strength would be our mandatory stat again and Fury should pull ahead of Arms.
it doesnt seem like the spreadsheet has a set cap for armor pen then (thats if you are correct, but i trust ya). im currently at 57% armor pen and when i switch a 16arp gem with a 16str gem, my dps goes down. i wonder if landsoul knows?
After about a week of playing Fury in Ulduar after the nerf, I'm severely dissapointed with the struggle in having comparable DPS. I am finding that if I have little buffs (apparent in some ten man groups) and sometimes full buffs that I cannot keep a tight WW, BT, Slam! rotation sometimes and also heroic strike enough to get more Slam! procs. Especially in cases where I have to sunder and keep sunders up my rotation really sucks due to rage. I am used to having enough rage to do mostly whatever I want and now that's not the case. In fights where there are no incoming damage and don't generally favor melee I find myself squandering at the bottom 1/3 of the DPS charts, sometimes behind the arms warrior.
Is anyone else experiencing the same kind of issues and noticing a big change in not only their damage output but also their rage use?
After running Ulduar this week in both 25 and 10 man versions, I'd have to say that I'm really disappointed. I've been fury since Molten Core, and this is the first time I stand no chance of getting number one on the raid damage meter. In the 25 man raid, I found my DPS was not terrible, but it felt so sub par it made the nights far less interesting. I'm one of the best players in my guild, and have always competed for 1-3 spots on DPS since level 60. It really felt shitty sitting 7-10 on most fights and most attempts. Seeing players beat me on DPS who I know just out right suck was very humbling. I felt like rage is now an issue, and there was definitely times where BT and WW came off CD and I just didn't have the rage to hit them.
Fury's 10 man DPS is pretty bad, as the spec is very buff dependable. Having to sunder also is the nail in the coffin. I was generally at the bottom of those charts for most of the fights. With all that being said, maybe its time to try improved zerk rage. They have made it were the average warrior will be at the bottom unless the raid is taking massive damage, in which case its possible to crack the top 5. Unfortunately, I don't see us ever getting number one on any fight in Ulduar reliably(although I haven't done all of it yet).
After running Ulduar this week in both 25 and 10 man versions, I'd have to say that I'm really disappointed. I've been fury since Molten Core, and this is the first time I stand no chance of getting number one on the raid damage meter. In the 25 man raid, I found my DPS was not terrible, but it felt so sub par it made the nights far less interesting. I'm one of the best players in my guild, and have always competed for 1-3 spots on DPS since level 60. It really felt shitty sitting 7-10 on most fights and most attempts. Seeing players beat me on DPS who I know just out right suck was very humbling. I felt like rage is now an issue, and there was definitely times where BT and WW came off CD and I just didn't have the rage to hit them.
Fury's 10 man DPS is pretty bad, as the spec is very buff dependable. Having to sunder also is the nail in the coffin. I was generally at the bottom of those charts for most of the fights. With all that being said, maybe its time to try improved zerk rage. They have made it were the average warrior will be at the bottom unless the raid is taking massive damage, in which case its possible to crack the top 5. Unfortunately, I don't see us ever getting number one on any fight in Ulduar reliably(although I haven't done all of it yet).
I agree with you, I am in the same situation right now. But I finally got dual-spec and swapping back and fore testing on one of the Ulduar 25 man boss.
In the end, in fury spec I end up in number 9 on the dps meter with 4139 DPS (with 27% ArPen tooltip). The highest was the druid at 5677 DPS.
In arms spec, same boss. I end up in number 7 (not too shabby) the DPS was 5472 (27% ArPen tooltip). Yes SAME exact GEARS just different SPEC. The highest again the DRUID at 7122 DPS since he gain most buff from me and the DK. Blood Frenzy*
The rest of the raid mage, warlock was sitting at 5400-5600 DPS. Which is PAR with me.
I can reach up to 37% ArPen tooltip but I will lose about 6-7% crit.
Also, lately. I saw an Arms warrior did ~7000 DPS and his gears was all in STR with very little ArPen. Same gears as me but mine is all gem into ArPen. Any idea why? I am not too sure if it's my rotation but everything is being hit when the CD is up. (I probably need to recheck if he got Hysteria during that fight)
it doesnt seem like the spreadsheet has a set cap for armor pen then (thats if you are correct, but i trust ya). im currently at 57% armor pen and when i switch a 16arp gem with a 16str gem, my dps goes down. i wonder if landsoul knows?
Well all of the calculations I am using are based on what Dysent, helllord, and the others have found thus far regarding Armor pen and boss armor.
With boss armor being 10643 and sunder/ff being applied and then armor pen cap is calculated I get all the values I have been posting.
So if you are at 57% armor pen in zerker stance, then that is over the cap (when a grim toll proc occurs). However, if you do not get that grim toll proc, then you would not be capped during that period.
If we dont calculate grim toll, then to be capped as fury based on the initial values, the cap would be (with sunder/ff and in Zerker stance): 104.05% or 1281.90 armor pen rating.
So basically we are relying on that grim toll proc since its pretty difficult to reach 1281.90 armor pen rating in pre-Ulduar gear without gimping your AP/Crit/Hit by a ton.
I agree with you, I am in the same situation right now. But I finally got dual-spec and swapping back and fore testing on one of the Ulduar 25 man boss.
In the end, in fury spec I end up in number 9 on the dps meter with 4139 DPS (with 27% ArPen tooltip). The highest was the druid at 5677 DPS.
In arms spec, same boss. I end up in number 7 (not too shabby) the DPS was 5472 (27% ArPen tooltip). Yes SAME exact GEARS just different SPEC. The highest again the DRUID at 7122 DPS since he gain most buff from me and the DK. Blood Frenzy*
The rest of the raid mage, warlock was sitting at 5400-5600 DPS. Which is PAR with me.
I can reach up to 37% ArPen tooltip but I will lose about 6-7% crit.
Also, lately. I saw an Arms warrior did ~7000 DPS and his gears was all in STR with very little ArPen. Same gears as me but mine is all gem into ArPen. Any idea why? I am not too sure if it's my rotation but everything is being hit when the CD is up. (I probably need to recheck if he got Hysteria during that fight)
Yeah it would help if you had a WWS parse for that. Which boss fight was it? What were the raid buffs? Did he get Hysteria? etc...
I am finding i cant spene my rage enought as arms always siting around a 100 due to op being so cheap. Fury and arms seems to be about the same dps but i am going with fury due to the fact bloodthirst actully heals you and it just has a better flow to it. It might be the bad groups i go with but having imp zerker stace is nice for threat reduction for adds.
04/20/09, 3:56 AM
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