I'm having issues as well - where once I was in a competitive spot, and whilst not topping every fight, but usuall in top 5 or so, I'm not stuggling to pull 10-15. Rogues and dks are miles ahead and rage management is such a bitch now, especially if you have to sunder.

Same issues here for me, constant rage starves. Fights like the general are unbearable, I find myself specing arms for many of the fights just cause I cant pull enough rage for a rotation. I'm not much of a fan of arms myself, I hope this gets fixed or I'm just going to try to reroll on my rogue.

Whilst I have tried both arms and fury,atm I have ended up as fury,mainly due to gear beeing unavailable for better arms. this is done on kologarn Wow Web Stats yesterday.Anything above 5.5k-ish sounds rather ok,especialy after nerf.The thing is that I noticed that raid buffs are 100% more valuable to keep rage gen to a proper level.Before nerf,not having sunders or wf on a bossfight didnt mean nearly as much as it does now.On the same time,as arms i could barely hit 5k,imo due to not having a betrayer(and jawbone is teribad weap if u dont need the expertise,in terms of the stats it has,also mace spec is kinda meh,compared to axe).Any suggestions/ideas?

I dont think Kologarn is a good fight to look at.
I found myself nr1 on Kologarn, but thats not really hard. As a melee you are just standing in front of the boss while the casters are running around most of the time. Your whirlwind hits all 3targets while all others are doing single target damage, so nr1 is really nothing special. Additionally theres also raid-dmg.

On other fights i sometimes do well, but sometimes i find myself without a chance. The imp berserker rage really helps with rage, but that doesnt always help, especially when i have to keep up sunder armor. I was sure, that with 3.1 they would make sunder armor so, that it applies its full reduction with just one stack, but well i was wrong.
On fights with alot of movement im doing well too, heroic fury is really great for such fights. But here comes another problem. While skilling heroic fury you lack talent points for either imp berserker rage or unbridled wrath, or commanding presence(well that talent is a joke anyway, 2minute Buff with 10Yards Range in an 10Minute Encounter?), which make a fury warrior less attractive for a raid leader. Skilled Commanding shout is really great(in theory), but you cant skill it without reducing your personel dps, this is a problem which really should be solved by blizzard.(And the duration of couse) Otherwise i dont see any reason to bring dps warriors over other melees into raids.

Overall i would say, that we shouldnt be so dependend on incoming raid-dmg. Additionally they should think about sunder armor, you loose so much damage just by applying those stacks, its really annoying. (Especially while warrior tanks are far away from being good tanks at the moment). Shouts should be "fixed" somehow and so on.
I dont think there is THAT much wrong with us, there are just many small things which together are a real pain in the a**.
So right now i think we`re a little too weak but its not that bad i thought it would be.
Sure, on some fights it looks like we are the worst dps´ers, but thats just because of some small tuning issues. (At least thats my opinion)

See the posts from Axira and catch22atplay on the previous page. After I applied the changes in my Fury spec which they proposed I found rage problems not that much problematic as they were. Basically -- those useless rage-generating talents in Fury&Arms trees are not useless anymore. Use them.

Fairly certain that after 3.1 Hysteria and TotT DON'T stack with Death Wish or Wrecking Crew or Enrage (mostly affecting prot wars). Since wrecking crew is up about 99%+ of the fight I would bet its safe to assume that the Arms warrior in question didn't receive any outside buffs like TotT or Hysteria. You could in theory still give hysteria to fury wars when they don't use death wish.

Forgive me for being dense but i was under the impression the hit cap for warriors was 8%, 164 with 3/3 precision. Could someone explain in simple terms (i don't understand complex :P) why Nehum says it should be 361.

I am sure there is an obvious answer - but like i said, i'm a bit thick.

Thanks

There was penalty attached to TG (-5% hit), thats why he talks about 361 hit rating, but it was months ago.

Thats rathe low DPS, maybe you had bad luck with bomb debuff , etc. Anyway we raid with 2 dps warriors (me arms + other guy fury speced). On first kill we were very very close to each other , around 5,5k DPS each. This fight favors fury a bit with well timed Deathwish/trinket on hearth phase.

Boormann i hope that was XT in a 10 man. To compare in 25 mans my highest was 6,721dps (bomb 3 times). On the kill i got 6,309dps (bomb 2 times). Arms warrior riding my tail. We were that close. Fairly sure some fury warriors are doing over 7k on this guy. I know not having imp icy talons or windfury hurts dps. But it shouldn't gimp it by 2k. -500dps would be extreme i'd think.

I have spent a good deal reading over this thread and wanted to share the impact of the patch on those of us who are Fury specd and not as well geared. I am basically all T7 gear and had been pretty consistent in a 5 man heroic around 2400 DPS. Was normally first or second for the overall run. On a 10 man I would normally be in the top 4. I have seen my damage fall to around 1800 which I cannot explain given that the damage nerf was only 10%. I did not want to admit it until last night when I finally had to acknowledge just how bad it is. I am ranked second in the guild according to wow heroics yet find blue geared locks, rogues and mages well below me in the stats now out DPS me on a consistent basis by almost 50%. As things currently stand…dual spec and tanking is about my only viable option because no one wants DPS tagging along that is below 2000 at a minimum. I hope that people are correct and some adjustment will be forth coming. One can only conclude that Blizzard did not want warriors DPSing given the current situation. Perhaps with T7.5+ gear the impact is not so extreme, however, it is incredibly frustrating given all the work that has gone into getting to this point.

I have found that using berserker rage every chance you can on certain fights really does help. (as mentioned in previous posts)

We were doing Ignis last night and the cooldown for BR fits perfectly when the raid gets hit with fire damage and it would jump my bar to 100. I was actually able to end in the top 3 with some lucky RNG too and not having to sunder that particular fight.

Our other warrior went arms and was just always beating me no matter what I did. Going to try arms this week as well if that's how it's meant to be for now.

Since the 3.1 patch I have also noticed that the 10% cut in damage dealt has actually led to a greater than 10% reduction. Like some of the other comments being made, I have found the ability to keep a nice rotation going is hindered by a lack of rage. This issue seems to be significantly worse on fights where I don't take much damage. I'm not sure if reducing the amount of rage generated was Blizzard's intent with the TG change, or if it's simply an unintended consequence. With that said, 3.1 and the advent of dual spec has also allowed me to see both the Fury and Arms spec in a different light.

First off I made a few adjustments to my fury spec to increase the rage generation, this leads to me putting points where I'd rather not, but in the scheme of things a DPS warrior without rage is akin more to a care bear than a warrior:
The World of Warcraft Armory

IMO the value of Anger Management has increased since 3.1, it serves 2 functions, increases your amount of rage, and reduces the rate at which your rage depletes when you aren't in a position that will let you build some (such as when running about, or waiting for a boss to drop). I have also put 3 points into UW because post 3.1 every little bit of rage you can gain helps. As much as I like 5 min battle shout, more often than not my raid group has enough paladins for improved might and kings. Irrespective of everything at that point in the talent tree you have to spend points somewhere to go further in the tree. And while some might suggest Imp. Berserker Rage, I think this is a poor choice for a couple of reason,

1. At that point in the tree there are much better talents to spend points on
2. At 1/2 Imp. Berserker Rage, you blow a GCD, but won't even generate enough rage to do a battle shout (the decay rate is too fast)
3. At 2/2 Imp. Berserker Rage you will blow a GCD, yet it _still_ won't be enough rage to be able to do an instant attack.

In additino to the spec changes, I also have Hyperspeed Accelerators tinker on my gloves, this tinker quickly gets rage flowing as well as providing a brief DPS increase. I've also found the haste potions quite useful for building up some rage pretty quickly. The next piece to making sure you aren't rage starved is simply hitting heroic strike less. You should really view it now as being much more of a pure rage dump, use it to burn _excess_ rage more. Use it as a nice damaging attack with hopes of getting a proc less.

With these changes I still manage to be competitive as Fury, a 10 man Ulduar parse (I was fury spec for XT-002 and Razorscale):
Wow Web Stats

With all of that said, I do think Arms has more DPS potential overall currently. But thanks to dual spec what I've really come to discover is that the biggest difference between the two specs is really much more about the style of DPS that each spec does. Arms tends to provide a style that allows for a persistent pounding on a target, and a higher level of mobility, basically "hit them hard at a fairly regular rate till dead". Fury's style ont he other hand is more about having very powerful explosive peaks and some occassional less damaging valleys, you lose some mobility, but you also gain the ability to choose the right moment to absolutely go nuts exploding for a huge amount of damage.

Considering this I always choose a spec appropriate for the fight. For example on XT-002 I am fury, when that heart drops I'm popping Deathwish, Recklessness and unloading with WW's hitting for 20k. On the other hand for Ignis I go arms, this allows me to almost always keep up with him being moved around, plus a guaranteed crit, as well you can bladestorm to do damage while moving.

That's been my post 3.1 experience so far FWIW.

1. The core TG Fury talents leave you at 18/51/0 with two points to spare. The remaining DPS/rage talents at that point are Anger Management, Improved Berserker Rage, Improved Execute, Unbridled Wrath and Improved Cleave. If you do not need Commanding Presence then the last two can be omitted. In any case, it's largely irrelevant that there are better talents at that tier because we have two spare points we can potentially place there.

2. This is a red herring, Bloodrage can already fulfill this role. Additionally, a Warrior with at 1/2 Imp Berserker Rage and 3/3 Intensify Rage can actually bank rage out of combat. Rage decay is 1 rage/sec without Anger Management. Bloodrage generates 20 rage every 40 seconds, while keeping the Warrior in a psuedo combat state for 10 seconds. 1/2 Improved Berserker Rage generates 10 rage every 20 seconds. This means that in a 40 second period you lose 30 rage while generating 40 (or 60 rage with 2/2 Improved Berserker Rage). Whether 1/2 or 2/2, you can effectively bank rage out of combat.

3. 2/2 Improve Berserker Rage is enough for a Slam, though not a Bloodthirst or Whirlwind. However, my experience has been that I am very rarely at exactly zero rage, meaning that if I'm short what I need for an instant it's usually by 5-15 rage.

Essentially, your stated reasons for liking Anger Management make a better case for Improved Berserker Rage. The GCD use is largely a moot issue as there are multiple points in a rotation where there's room, especially when Bloodsurge fails to proc.

assuming i always have imp might in my 25 man raid, what do you think about just putting 1 pt into imp execute and 1 into Imp Bloodrage instead of 2/2 imp execute? there is also the option of taking imp zerk rage but if i were to get it id only be able to get 1 pt in it with my current spec. what do you guys think?

spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Is the exact formula for glancing blows below 400 weapon skill known (the formula on wowwiki of 10 + mob def - weap. skill is quite old and the phrase "seems to be" gives me concerns)?

The reason I ask is that while testing some talent specs on an heroic training dummy tonight I was surprised to see that around 42% of my melee swings were glancing (over at least 10 minutes of combat). It then occurred to me that I wasn't sure of my 2H skills, and indeed I am at 399 MH, 398 OH.

Now clearly my next job is to go make up these last few points, and give myself a stern talking to about doing my chores, but even so, 42% seems awfully high given the above formula - and I suspect this might be partly why I was struggling so much for rage. Has anyone got any recent data on 400/400 glancing percentages?

I've also spent a little time looking at random patchwerk parses post 3.1 (on wowmeteronline); have been seeing glancing percentages of 28-31 from the parses I've found with fury warriors in, though 3 or so minutes is I guess not quite long enough to make any serious deductions.

Edit: Forgot I was going to mention that landsoul's spreadsheet has boss glancing of 24%, with lvl 83 of 25% - am I missing something about bosses (which I thought were simply lvl 83 mobs)?

It should be noted that Precision is also a rage generation talent that comes with a little damage. It's not phenomenal past the hit cap, but the theoretical rage/sec is fairly close to UW (closer the better your gear is) and comes with some raw damage. Also, unless I am mistaken Unbridled Wrath doesn't proc off misses, so taking points out of Precision is slightly counterproductive in that way as well.

This is very True. I don't think i'd personally do it. The loss of rage via taking 1 point out of precision for Unbridled Wrath is only 0.001764. The gain from getting 1 extra point in UW is 0.125. So subtracting the former from the latter= 0.123236 rage per sec gain. However the loss of the rage from what used to be a hit itself is to great. For me i'd loose approx 0.208 rage per sec approx. Net loss from taking 1 point out of precision for 1 point in UW is 0.085 rage per sec loss approx. So yes you are quite correct. Had to edit a bit and attempt the math. Only mentioned it as an option for consistent and steady rage. Not sure it's worth it though. Misses themselves make rage inconsistent. So i'm shooting my own foot here. A double negative.

Essentially you have distorted the essence of what I said into an argument about which talent generates more rage per second. Nowhere did I claim or even try to claim that AM generates more rage per second than IBR. I would gladly admit that per 40 second time period IBR generates more rage. Your premise that because it generates more rage per second it is a better talent is questionable because you are basically evaluating IBR in a vacuum.

The post that prompted most of this discussion was about how to keep a tight rotation going with fury. One aspect of keeping a nice tight rotation with fury is a _persistent_ stream of rage being available. What you have demonstrated, and what I agree with is that IBR generates more rage per second per talent point. You have hardly demonstrated that per talent point IBR is a better choice over AM.

Again the ability to keep a nice tight rotation where as few CD's as possible are spent on doing something other than your most damaging abilities is that your rage flows. Erratic rage generation that is spiky and inconsistent will more than likely result in a DPS loss. What IBR is allowing you to do is patch in the holes you are encountering in your rage generation. For one it really isn't generating rage per second, it is instantaneous. It's use is more like "WW is off CD, I need 10 rage to WW, cast IBR, cast WW". You have now just removed roughly 2 seconds from the fight where WW or BT could have been on CD.

In addition you are almost suggesting with your argument that IBR and AM do the same thing it's just that IBR generates more rage. This is patently false. IBR will not reduce the decay rate of your rage, IBR does all of about nothing outside of combat, particularly 1/2. AM provides you with a passive, consistent, and guaranteed source of rage. AM reduces the decay rate of your rage, while you dismiss this in it's entirety what this means is that for any period of time, in or out of combat, overall you will have a greater amount of rage available to you for a greater period of time. This distinction becomes more important when you consider that there aren't any tank and spank fights in Ulduar.

More over while AM won't generate as much rage as IBR it will be periodic, and supplementing a guaranteed periodic source of rage with something like 3/5 UW means you will often generate more rage than the 1 per 3 seconds guaranteed by AM. In addition this bonus rage will stick around longer for you to use.

So yes, IBR generates more rage, but no this fact does not mean that IBR provides the most benefit per talent point.

I provided an armory link and a very recent parse. I would hope that you would do the same if you're still convinced that IBR is a great way to maintain a tight fury rotation, thereby maximizing your DPS.

In any case using the spec that I suggested, 1/1 AM gives you 0.333 rps + 3/5 UW giving you 0.375 rps (usiing cathc22's numbers), you end up with .7083 rps. This is more than 1/2 IBR.

@Viveye:

I have a few problems with the way you word things.
The thing that confuses me is that you use the argument that AM reduces your rage decay. But I honestly don't see any use for rage not decaying when you are not in combat. I hope you realize that during a bossfight, even if your not hitting the boss or are just running around (and thus are still considered "in combat") that rage doesn't decay at all?

Secondly, I do believe IBR is essential into reminding DPS warriors to use Berserker Rage as much as possible, especially during fights where the slightest bit of raiddamage will be taken. Taking into account raiddamage, berserker rage will give you alot more rage than the 20 rage IBR will already give.

Trying to weave Berserker Rage into my rotation was quite experimental a few months ago, but has now become almost an essential part of a fury warrior's DPS rotation in my eyes. And I tend to believe that a majority of DPS warriors out there, still are either hesitant or unaware of the benefits that weaving BR into their rotation could give.


Having said this though, I do believe that they've been too hard with the 10% damage reduction on TG. Especially on fights where there is alot of raiddamage going around and rage becomes a non-issue for us, we still only barely can compete with most of the other DPS classes (if we are completely on top of our game and play close to perfectly). Which ofcourse does not bode well at all for fights where there is only little or no raiddamage going around at all.

Besides that issue of not being able to deal out competitive DPS as easily anymore, we do still bring a few key buffs and debuffs to the raid. Improved Commanding Shout is an essential raidbuff for both 25 and 10man content, and protection warriors normally don't have talentpoints spare to pick this up. A strong feat for DPS warriors, only troubled by the fact that it's a very short duration buff. Next to that there is Sunder Armor, which ofcourse is also a very strong addition to overall raidDPS, the only problem being that we have to press it between our DPS rotation and on movement or multi-phase fights it becomes a real hassle getting full stacks up and keeping them up, especially if you know that on certain fights our rage generation is already pretty low, causing us having to wait to get rage, not to whirlwind or bloodthirst, but to spend that rage on 1 out of 5 stacks of sunder armor first. Which in turn also damages our DPS performance by more than we'd probably want to realize.

Ok, so to be clear, is the hit cap for warriors 8%, 164 with 3/3 precision, or is it 361 with 3/3 precision?

Also, is this for both fury and arms? Or is it just for fury due to TG?

The cap is 8% for both arms and fury.

Fury - 164 with 3/3 precision
Arms- 263