Pay attention to the SEP calculation. I haven't been able to create a scenario where ArP > STR with my gear as fury. Even as arms, it takes quite a bit of ArP to make it better than STR.
I have seen Arms warriors DPS drop because they gem out ArP instead of STR thinking that it is better for them, when it is not (primarily because they don't have enough of it). ArP will surpass STR for arms with more Ulduar gear. I am not sure that it will for fury.
Since I calculated off of that site that Armor Pen > Strenght by at least .6 of a dps point. And when I included my additional Attack Power I gained from my trinkets, Armor Pen gave me 2 more points of dps than Strenght. So that's got me thinking to re-gem for it until I get some pieces from Ulduar.
Well I will tell you this much, I switched to Arms and replaced my gems for ArP. So all of my gear is ArP. I tested out a 10 man OS1 and put out 4.9K DPS on Sarth (546 ArP at the time) (we just zerged him). The attempt prior to that I had switched to Fury (514 ArP in gear since its almost the same gear I use for Arms minus one or two items). We wiped at 2% but I did 4.2K DPS.
So we are comparing 4.2K DPS as Fury to 4.9K DPS as Arms. (No Might, Mark, or Windfury/Strength&Agi)- Just Battle shout and Kings.
This is on the same boss and basically the same fight duration. However it is not AS accurate since adds are involved. I will test it again on patchwerk (but I will have to wait till next week to do it as Fury).
Without the big raid buffs like WF/SoE totem/Horn of Winter and the comparatively large gains to Fury (compared to Arms), it seems reasonable that Fury would lose to Arms. I'm not positive that would make up the margin but WF alone is a pretty big increase to my rage gen and dps as Fury.
Heroic strike costs 12 rage once improved + all the rage you WON'T gain for the correspondant white mh damage.
On average considering white+miss+glance+crits it is reasonable to say it costs around 50-60 rage depending ofc on your stats.
Old values? Does it factor the 90% base damage we do with TG spec in 3.1? Does it factor in the HS glyph? No idea here. I usually hit HS when i'm at 60 rage. If i didn't HS i would have hit 100. So the loss was 40 rage. Plus 12 for the HS itself. But i still get 10 free rage back when i crit due to HS glyph and use another ability. So the cost is actually 47 rage on average with 50% crit and if you hit HS at exactly 60 rage. If you have more rage the cost is less. If you have less rage the cost is more. Your rage generation greatly effects this. The point being is that 50-60 is far from being correct.
Putting an arbitrary rage cost on an HS isn't right. This tends to steer people away from its use. We need to look at the whole picture here. HS use at first look is an ability we have to dump rage. On the 2nd look it's a way to keep from wasting rage. We have BT and Ww to use. If we don't HS we hit 100 rage and any excess is completely wasted. Due to tanking i first called it a rage dump. As i went Fury for this expansion i then saw it as not wasting rage. Then being efficient with it's use. IE knowing when BT and or Ww are coming off cooldown and not using it at bad times. Further applying this the next step is to generate more rage to increase HS use. I don't care if the HS ability had a 20 rage base cost before factoring in anything. I would still find a way to make efficient use of it. To keep from wasting rage i'd rather assign a number to. X rage saved from being wasted. Although both it's cost and how much rage you keep from being wasted would be more accurate. Perhaps a weighting between the 2 to come up with a value. Sorry but i just never liked it when people assigned a rage cost value to HS use without factoring in what it's really supposed to accomplish. I know you and most other people understand this. This is mainly for the people that don't quite get it. As i mentioned before the ones that don't HS enough. The ones that don't see the advantage to increasing rage generation to increase HS use. These are the ones that don't get it and their dps suffers.
Last edited by catch22atplay : 04/26/09 at 7:20 PM.
Hey all.
I have been looking at several posts here in this thread.
Few of u doin 7k(?) on xt-002 with Arms-spec.
I tried arms on xt-002 with my guild last night and i only did 5k at max, dont know if my rotation is that great tho.
I used the rotation some guys here have informed me with.
I have 30% crit, jawbone, and 300ArP. ( i know, not that gr8 wpn )
Btw anyone knows a good addon that will show the estimated time left on the next overpower?
Would love a rendreminder-addon aswell.
Also feel free to check out my spec/glyphs and recomend me if somethin is way off
Hey all.
I have been looking at several posts here in this thread.
Few of u doin 7k(?) on xt-002 with Arms-spec.
I tried arms on xt-002 with my guild last night and i only did 5k at max, dont know if my rotation is that great tho.
I used the rotation some guys here have informed me with.
I have 30% crit, jawbone, and 300ArP. ( i know, not that gr8 wpn )
Btw anyone knows a good addon that will show the estimated time left on the next overpower?
Would love a rendreminder-addon aswell.
Also feel free to check out my spec/glyphs and recomend me if somethin is way off
One of the main issues is 30% crit, that is very low for arms dps. I dont know of an addon but every 25% interval of rend will proc OP.
Old values? Does it factor the 90% base damage we do with TG spec in 3.1? Does it factor in the HS glyph? No idea here. I usually hit HS when i'm at 60 rage. If i didn't HS i would have hit 100. So the loss was 40 rage. Plus 12 for the HS itself. But i still get 10 free rage back when i crit due to HS glyph and use another ability. So the cost is actually 47 rage on average with 50% crit and if you hit HS at exactly 60 rage. If you have more rage the cost is less. If you have less rage the cost is more. Your rage generation greatly effects this. The point being is that 50-60 is far from being correct.
Putting an arbitrary rage cost on an HS isn't right. This tends to steer people away from its use. We need to look at the whole picture here. HS use at first look is an ability we have to dump rage. On the 2nd look it's a way to keep from wasting rage. We have BT and Ww to use. If we don't HS we hit 100 rage and any excess is completely wasted. Due to tanking i first called it a rage dump. As i went Fury for this expansion i then saw it as not wasting rage. Then being efficient with it's use. IE knowing when BT and or Ww are coming off cooldown and not using it at bad times. Further applying this the next step is to generate more rage to increase HS use. I don't care if the HS ability had a 20 rage base cost before factoring in anything. I would still find a way to make efficient use of it. To keep from wasting rage i'd rather assign a number to. X rage saved from being wasted. Although both it's cost and how much rage you keep from being wasted would be more accurate. Perhaps a weighting between the 2 to come up with a value. Sorry but i just never liked it when people assigned a rage cost value to HS use without factoring in what it's really supposed to accomplish. I know you and most other people understand this. This is mainly for the people that don't quite get it. As i mentioned before the ones that don't HS enough. The ones that don't see the advantage to increasing rage generation to increase HS use. These are the ones that don't get it and their dps suffers.
I don't want to debate how much rage is worth HS, since you are right on a point: wasting rage is worse than using it for HS.
Anyway the discussion was about other factors, especially IBS and it's value and it simply can't massively inflate your DPS cause of the barely 2HS per minute you get. It is great to let you sustain your rotation, no doubts.
HS cost is very close to 50 even factoring in .9 multiplier, 60 could be the average value at the end of the tier.
Using HS is a must and using it well is what gives you the most dps. "Enough" is not a proper value, how much is enough? 25% of white hits? 50%? the more the better?
Different fights = different "enough" since outer rage sources influences its use much more than your will.
Abusing of HS is the worse error you can do anyway, and to increase the rage generation so that your number of hs increase by x% you need to consider a lot of factors.
I agree with Hellord, Heroic Strike usage isn't the same for all fights. It's not important how much rage consumes HS, the important point here is that you must use HS as much as you can without screw your WW/BT usage on each CD. This is the way you'll have more DPS. And some fights will let you use HS more than others. In my own experience, on fights with high raid damage I can almost spam HS, Off-hand hits plus Environmental damage gives you all the needed rage. I never thought how much rage I need to have before click HS, just check how much rage incoming gives you the fight and adapt HS to your rotation. More experience with the fight will let you use it more and more until the edge
I WANT TO STAY FURY IF POSSIBLE PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME HOW AND WHAT I NEED TO DO DIFFERENTLY.
I have a DPS warrior(IN MY GUILD) who is currently arms and is Gemmed specifically for crit and on boss fights in Ulduar puts out 4-5kDPS and the only difference in our gear is Gems and he has Betrayer where I have Jawbone.
I am srsly close to loosing my raid spot. Plz tell me what I am doing wrong!!!
General intuition would lead you to think that he is doing the right thing, and you are not. If you copied what he was doing, and perhaps asked him, you may be able to perform as good as him. If at first you don't succeed, try again. Or copy someone else. You won't find much help here with a post like that.
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Long time reader first time poster, blah blah.....
....
I WANT TO STAY FURY IF POSSIBLE PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME HOW AND WHAT I NEED TO DO DIFFERENTLY.
I have a DPS warrior(IN MY GUILD) who is currently arms and is Gemmed specifically for crit and on boss fights in Ulduar puts out 4-5kDPS and the only difference in our gear is Gems and he has Betrayer where I have Jawbone.
I am srsly close to loosing my raid spot. Plz tell me what I am doing wrong!!!
Which fights? - some favour fury, some arms. As arms you can abuse sweeping strikes + bladestorm combo (+ cleave) for example. What;s difference between you and teh other guy in DPS? 300, 1000?
Which fights? - some favour fury, some arms. As arms you can abuse sweeping strikes + bladestorm combo (+ cleave) for example. What;s difference between you and teh other guy in DPS? 300, 1000?
It's really hard to answer your question from such small pieces of information, what are your stats?, are you hit/exp capped. Do you keep rend up playing arms etc. Maybe your PC sucks and you have 5 fps with 1000 ms ping.
Get some parse from boss fights so people here can take a look.
PS Any numbers from target dummies are meaningless.
Whilst I have tried both arms and fury,atm I have ended up as fury,mainly due to gear beeing unavailable for better arms. this is done on kologarn Wow Web Stats yesterday.Anything above 5.5k-ish sounds rather ok,especialy after nerf.The thing is that I noticed that raid buffs are 100% more valuable to keep rage gen to a proper level.Before nerf,not having sunders or wf on a bossfight didnt mean nearly as much as it does now.On the same time,as arms i could barely hit 5k,imo due to not having a betrayer(and jawbone is teribad weap if u dont need the expertise,in terms of the stats it has,also mace spec is kinda meh,compared to axe).Any suggestions/ideas?
Thanks spearrow for posting a real WWS.
As fury, I was close to BiS before ulduar, except a second betrayer offhand.
On patchwork over 3m (a slow kill) I'd see 5500 - 5900 DPS without hysteria or tricks. And the shorter the fight (less than 3m) the higher it would go. I also pulled 6, 7, and 8K DPS on sarth zerg as well.
Post 3.1 I did a patcherk sub 3m and I pulled 4200 DPS; I was a bit rusty missed a few cooldowns but mathed that out to 4500 DPS.
Needless to say Im pretty depressed. Like switch-to-arms kind of depressed. The only thing I noticed - no windfury. It was missing. But I think with windfury I'd still only get above the 5K mark? To rub salt in the wound, our DK's (who have gotton ulduar weapon, and maybe 1-2 upgrades) are 5800/5900. Maybe that one weapon and a couple ups means a whole lot though. We'll see.
So looking at your WWS you do take damage in this fight unlike patch so perhaps other fights will be a different story; I have yet to DPS ulduar (Im tanking) but I can see the massive DPS boost from incoming damage (rage) on ignis... xt... kologarn... hodir and others.
On another note, I've stayed fury throughout Ulduar for the first few weeks and Have to say it's not 'THAT' bad. It's certainly been nerfed alot but overall I guess it has evened out. I have a few WWS of some ulduar clears That you guys may be interested in (obviously posting my best >>)
Well, Kologarn is by far the best for me (fury) fight i have experienced in Ulduar so far. 3 targets, two of them are always close to each other. What can i say, noone can beat warrior there in DPS if you dont get grabbed by the hand to often.
i respecced for 3 points in UW and IBR, along with frequent usage of bloodrage, and I'm having much fewer problems on the second week in Ulduar. I'm still annoyed that the DK/Pallies are kicking my butt usually but I'm getting closer.
Also, I reglyphed for the execute glyph before getting into Ulduar, but after 2 weeks of it, I'm planning on going back to cleave. There are several fights where that extra target will really push up your dps. Off the top of my head, Razorscale adds, Kologarn, Thorim (in the arena), Hodir (if you break out the iced adds that are clumped), Auriya (when cats are up), Freya adds, Mimiron phase 3. Execute just doesn't seem to add enough, especially since it's usually just a rage dump below 20%.
With Ulduar having lots of raid damage on most fights, you really need to be heavy on the Heroic Strike usage. Using HS as a "if rage > 60 then HS" ragedump is going to result in DPS loss compared to using it more often. As someone mentioned HS abuse is one of the worst things we can do, but another one of the worst things we can do is not use it enough.
We are all told that HS use should never leave you without enough rage to BT/WW/Slam. I think of it like this, if you NEVER lack rage to BT/WW/Slam then you aren't using HS enough.
The Warrior lacking rage for BT/WW/Slam once per bossfight or a few times per night is going to be doing more DPS than the Warrior that never lacks rage for it.
After some raids in Ulduar now I can fairly say that there should no such thing as a guild's 'fury warrior' or 'arms warrior'. The warrior doing dps should simply be the 'dps warrior'. I have found out that arms deals significantly more damage on the single-target encounters, that sometimes have a multiple component but are nonetheless mostly single-target (e.g. XT-002, Mimiron). Fury deals significantly more damage on those encounters that consist mainly of multi-targetting such as Razorscale or Thorim arena. On those encounters fury is still quite able to top the dps list.
After all, what would the benefit be of me using an arms spec in Thorim Arena? Or me using a fury spec on Mimiron? it only results in the loss of raid damage. The buffs the particular spec grant are usually being brought by other classes as well (paladins/druids/combat rogues). Therefore i'm dual-speccing through the instance, switching specs (and respective gear) to bring out whatever pumps out the most damage.
Yiqa i agree with you if you have a feral druid. The problem is not every raid does. We don't have one. So we would lose raid damage. So we need 1 arms warriors for Trauma and 1 fury warrior for Rampage.
Phatha glad it helps with the rage and overall dps. I also agree with the Cleave glyph. Currently i find it to be more useful as well. I guess which glyph you use will really depend on which bosses it helps the most on. Or it may be best to Glyph for bosses that give you the most difficulty.
Polishedhead this sentence. "if you NEVER lack rage to BT/WW/Slam then you aren't using HS enough.". I know what you meant by it. But it can be taken the wrong way. Took me reading it 3 times to figure it out. Go with your first sentence "We are all told that HS use should never leave you without enough rage to BT/WW/Slam." as that is correct and will cause less confusion.
Last edited by catch22atplay : 04/30/09 at 12:49 PM.
I am also doing some spec dancing depending on the boss, but as fury Im happy how the 2nd week was with more information and how to optimize skills for each fight.
One thing I don't fully understand is Deep Wounds. It has gone down to do 12-13% of my damage. And its average ticks are way lower than pre 3.1. I didn't see any change on 3.1 that directly affected Deep Wounds so I don't know why it has become weaker. It double dips negatively from Titan's Grip penalty or there has been some change to it I have missed?
I am also doing some spec dancing depending on the boss, but as fury Im happy how the 2nd week was with more information and how to optimize skills for each fight.
One thing I don't fully understand is Deep Wounds. It has gone down to do 12-13% of my damage. And its average ticks are way lower than pre 3.1. I didn't see any change on 3.1 that directly affected Deep Wounds so I don't know why it has become weaker. It double dips negatively from Titan's Grip penalty or there has been some change to it I have missed?
TG would be -10% damage on a crit hit, then yes i'm willing to bet Deep Wounds is doing another -10% off TG for it doing a nice -20% damage.
After some raids in Ulduar now I can fairly say that there should no such thing as a guild's 'fury warrior' or 'arms warrior'. The warrior doing dps should simply be the 'dps warrior'. I have found out that arms deals significantly more damage on the single-target encounters, that sometimes have a multiple component but are nonetheless mostly single-target (e.g. XT-002, Mimiron). Fury deals significantly more damage on those encounters that consist mainly of multi-targetting such as Razorscale or Thorim arena. On those encounters fury is still quite able to top the dps list.
After all, what would the benefit be of me using an arms spec in Thorim Arena? Or me using a fury spec on Mimiron? it only results in the loss of raid damage. The buffs the particular spec grant are usually being brought by other classes as well (paladins/druids/combat rogues). Therefore i'm dual-speccing through the instance, switching specs (and respective gear) to bring out whatever pumps out the most damage.
Odd. My arms dominates multi-target fights. My fury...well it sucks, but it does ok on single target. Bladestorm/Sweeping/Cleave >>> Whirlwind/Cleave for multi target. I may try fury again when I get a better off-hand, but I'm putting out way better numbers as Arms and I enjoy the rotation a lot more than boring fury.
04/24/09, 2:18 PM
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