I'm confused, I gain zero damage during Vortex from magic damage on me.
This is why I try to blow all my rage and then heroic throw or WW if I have 25+ during Vortex to keep my Fury of the Five Flights going.
But I'm nearly 100% sure you get no rage.
I've been wrong before, of course, but I usually end up with a good bit of Rage coming out of Vortexes. I'm saved to Malygos for the week already, but I'll double-check next week; I may be mistaken and it's just from the autoattack hits I get after falling out, since my unit frames replaces my actual character frame with the vehicle frame (X-Perl) which means I'm trying to read my small raid frame for a rage meter.
In a completely unrelated matter... it looks like the Hunters have determined that, at least for them, the hit cap is now at 8%. This might be a Hunter-only effect, but it's definitely something strange that we should try looking into. I'm going to give the boss-level targetting dummy some whacks if I can move my gear around to hit 8% hit with a 1Her and shield and see what happens sometime later today, but it'd be useful to know what our hitcap actually is.
From my experience watching my rage (even hitting beserker rage) during a Malygos vortex, you do NOT gain rage during the vortex. I suspect people are finding themselves in melee range and not noticing their white hits going off who are thinking that you do gain rage.
Going to confirm with previous posters and say that Enrage is definetly a waste of extra talent points. Ran it on Malygos last night and only his direct damage to me seemed to have a chance to trigger the effect. The vortex damage never procced enrage and I would venture to guess(no one ran a WWS for us last night) that the uptime was sub 3-5%. 2% * 2% = .04% damage increase which for a talent point is in no way shape or form worth it in a raid setting.
At this point I'm thinking http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...h=000000000000 is the best you can do for maximizing your raid contribution. The points in charge and rend are really dependent on the discussion going on about rending bosses(with the charge points very unimportant). Commanding presence could also be dropped for other low tier talents.
I think there's an important question being left unasked. Specifically: How valuable is rage?
The general impression I got from anecdotes in the beta was that Fury rage generation is phenomenal. I can't imagine we'd be seriously discussing the extensive use of HS otherwise. Rage is cheap, and so we're willing to lose 60 or more on a single Heroic Strike. It's obviously not cheap enough yet that potentially losing 160 rage for a single rend is on the radar. Few, if anyone, at this points is decked out in T7, which begs the question of how far our Rage generation is likely to go.
It's conceivable, therefore, that Rend's largest issue may in the future be less the rage cost and more the momentary dip in white DPS from stance dancing (and the slight increase in threat). On average I wouldn't expect 10% AP and 3% crit to add up to more than 4k damage.
That said, even if this proves viable I highly doubt it will prove a common practice even among min/maxers. This kind of complicated maneuver, even once mastered, is unlikely to be usable in anything beyond straight up tank and spank fights. I'd guess more Warriors will find a use for Rend when incoming raid damage warrants swapping to Defensive Stance.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity. Monte's LoL Blog
Going to confirm with previous posters and say that Enrage is definetly a waste of extra talent points. Ran it on Malygos last night and only his direct damage to me seemed to have a chance to trigger the effect. The vortex damage never procced enrage and I would venture to guess(no one ran a WWS for us last night) that the uptime was sub 3-5%. 2% * 2% = .04% damage increase which for a talent point is in no way shape or form worth it in a raid setting.
At this point I'm thinking http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...h=000000000000 is the best you can do for maximizing your raid contribution. The points in charge and rend are really dependent on the discussion going on about rending bosses(with the charge points very unimportant). Commanding presence could also be dropped for other low tier talents.
If you're going to get Commanding Presence, you really should get Booming Voice as well. Commanding Shout is the unique (good) Warrior buff as it easily outclasses Blood Pact, so unless you have multiple DPS Warriors in the same raid it's a large uptick for survivability, and it helps if it actually reaches more than half of it... and it helps if you only have one Paladin to boot (presumably with Kings), as Hunters usually want AP boosts as well. It's not like UW is at all a factor, given how spiky (but insanely high) TG rage generation is.
Giving up the point in Rampage can be somewhat iffy if you don't have multiple Feral Druids, especially given that they can die (if DPS) or be OOR (if tanking in multi-mob fights). I guess they can die as tanks too, although at that point you usually have larger concerns than the crit buff. Your mileage may vary based on raid composition and roles, though.
EDIT:
I think there's an important question being left unasked. Specifically: How valuable is rage?
The general impression I got from anecdotes in the beta was that Fury rage generation is phenomenal. I can't imagine we'd be seriously discussing the extensive use of HS otherwise. Rage is cheap, and so we're willing to lose 60 or more on a single Heroic Strike. It's obviously not cheap enough yet that potentially losing 160 rage for a single rend is on the radar. Few, if anyone, at this points is decked out in T7, which begs the question of how far our Rage generation is likely to go.
Rage Generation is phenomenal. It's also rather... spiky, given the rather slow weapons we're using. It's not all inconceivable to stance dance to Rend and then ending up missing with both attacks, giving us a rather large rage screw. I do think it's very much worthwhile to use when you have both BT and WW on CD (preferably not having both come up shortly - after you've used WW) and not having Bloodsurge up, but it's going to be a judgment call for many warriors for some time now.
EDIT2:
To answer my own question from earlier in the thread, it does look like the new hitcap is 8% against bosses... not 9%, which pushes our hit requirement down a bit. I'm currently up to about 2000 swings at 8.2% hit with a sword and board (no precision) without missing once.
Using Pawn as a fury warrior is not effective. Values change depending on what level all of your stats are at. Please read some threads before you keep adding to the garbage post count.
Sorry, this seems silly to me. You can create multiple ratings with Pawn. I've created one for Hit capped, one for EXP capped, one for Hit & EXP capped, and of course sets for not. It allows me to quickly change between these sets in the event that I need to makeup some hit or what have you. I find Pawn to be quite useful personally.
If you're going to get Commanding Presence, you really should get Booming Voice as well. Commanding Shout is the unique (good) Warrior buff as it easily outclasses Blood Pact, so unless you have multiple DPS Warriors in the same raid it's a large uptick for survivability, and it helps if it actually reaches more than half of it... and it helps if you only have one Paladin to boot (presumably with Kings), as Hunters usually want AP boosts as well. It's not like UW is at all a factor, given how spiky (but insanely high) TG rage generation is.
Giving up the point in Rampage can be somewhat iffy if you don't have multiple Feral Druids, especially given that they can die (if DPS) or be OOR (if tanking in multi-mob fights). I guess they can die as tanks too, although at that point you usually have larger concerns than the crit buff. Your mileage may vary based on raid composition and roles, though.
In addition to what RPZ says I'm not sold on the fact that 2/2 Imp Execute is all that much for TG myself. It seems to me that as mobile as a lot of fights are that 1 pt in Heroic Fury gets you more overall dmg via increased ToT than a second point in Imp Execute would.
I think there's an important question being left unasked. Specifically: How valuable is rage?
The general impression I got from anecdotes in the beta was that Fury rage generation is phenomenal. I can't imagine we'd be seriously discussing the extensive use of HS otherwise. Rage is cheap, and so we're willing to lose 60 or more on a single Heroic Strike. It's obviously not cheap enough yet that potentially losing 160 rage for a single rend is on the radar. Few, if anyone, at this points is decked out in T7, which begs the question of how far our Rage generation is likely to go.
Well i guess that once our rage comes to the point where we can HS every MH attack, have enough rage for BT, WW, and slam, along with shouts, rage will no longer be a concern, and wasting 50 rage on swaping to get a rend will be worth it, since we will be at max rage with no way to spend it.
And im guessing that could be sooner than we think. Due to HS glyph and 4 piece t7 bonus, crit gives even more of an increase in rage than it did before. Hit also does, since its a %, and our base rage generation is higher with titans grip.
When ppl start running around with 450 hit, expertise capped, and 40% crit unbuffed, thats gonna be a lot of rage..
I've been wrong before, of course, but I usually end up with a good bit of Rage coming out of Vortexes. I'm saved to Malygos for the week already, but I'll double-check next week; I may be mistaken and it's just from the autoattack hits I get after falling out, since my unit frames replaces my actual character frame with the vehicle frame (X-Perl) which means I'm trying to read my small raid frame for a rage meter.
In a completely unrelated matter... it looks like the Hunters have determined that, at least for them, the hit cap is now at 8%. This might be a Hunter-only effect, but it's definitely something strange that we should try looking into. I'm going to give the boss-level targetting dummy some whacks if I can move my gear around to hit 8% hit with a 1Her and shield and see what happens sometime later today, but it'd be useful to know what our hitcap actually is.
I edited my post, it was stupid and I said damage when I meant rage, that I gain no rage in vortex from magic damage.
Anyways I also ran with enrage this week, and I had 4 enrage procs on Thaddius in 5 minute 28 seconds ( one from killing a hunter who moved to slow ) and I had 1 enrage effect on Sapphiron. Pretty conclusive that enrage is terrible for PvE if I got one proc on a fight with constant aoe damage ( and no refreshes, unless I'm reading my WWS log wrong ).
I read through all the threads and hopefully didn't miss this already being stated, but there's an interesting thread in the hunter forum that's claiming an 8% hit cap on yellows.
Tested this on a heroic training dummy with 342 hit rating and 3 points in precision (+13,43% hit) by spamming execute.
3961 executes, 0 misses. Will do further testing with hit% closer to 13, but seems to me that the yellow miss chance vs bosses is indeed only 8% in wotlk. Now if only someone could provide numbers from actual raiding content with +13% hit.
Just did a 3000 swings session on the target dummy in Orgrimmar. I only wear'd a [Dalaran Greatsword] and my Pirate outfit (don't like the repair costs :P)
After 3000 swings I came up with the following stats:
Hit chance: 0.00% + 3% through Precision
Miss chance: 5.0%
These were only default swings, no specials beside 1 Bloodthirst because I wanted to tell someone ingame :>
I'll try to another WWS with both yellow and white attacks.
I'd like to jump back to discussing weapon enchants if possible.
I don't claim to be good and math and some of these formulas were pulled from other threads.
But unbuffed I'm sitting at:
13591 Armor
3640 AP
So each berserking proc would take away 3398 armor
After AttT refreshed it would result in a loss of 62.29AP (56.63*1.1 for imp zerker) (I think this factors in)
Each berserking proc gives 440AP - 62.29 = ~378AP
Based on the log files for our Patchwerk kill this week, berserking doesn't appear to have an internal CD: Wow Web Stats
Note: Kallis has berserking in both his Main and Off-hand, Bearshoe has it in only his Main-Hand, and I have it in my Off-Hand because until yesterday I was main-handing a sword of justice and didn't want to spend the money to enchant it with anything expensive.
Looking at the logs for Bearshoe is going to warrent the best results as there is no way to filter between MH and OH procs and OHs don't proc as often as MHs.
There is several instances where he is refreshing his buff sometimes as close as 1-2seconds after the initial buff:
02:51'45.244 Bearshoe gains Berserk.
02:51'47.868 Bearshoe's Berserk is refreshed.
02:53'23.602 Bearshoe gains Berserk.
02:53'25.680 Bearshoe's Berserk is refreshed.
So using some math I pulled from a Paladin thread in order to calculate how berserking compares to massacre we need to figure out the length of time it needs to be up per minute.
Edit based on posts in this thread testing Berserking:
Based on at least anecdotal evidence in this thread, Berserking can chain-proc, has no internal cooldown, etc.
Let's figure out the necessary up-time to beat Massacre.
378 AP * x% = 121 AP
x% = 121/378
x = .0.320
As long as Berserking is up more than 32% of the time, it is better than Massacre.
32% of 60 seconds = 19.25 seconds per minute. Or just over 1ppm
Comparing the amount of procs Bearshoe had to the amount I had:
Bearshoe: 6 procs with 7 refreshes. Maximum uptime of ~41sec. Total uptime 121sec
Midgehh: 4 procs with 1 refresh. Maximum uptime of ~20 seconds. Total uptime 65sec
I'm "pretty sure" we're all missing a big point on the hit cap.
If all this testing is being done on a "Heroic Training Dummy" couldn't we assume from the name, that the mob is considered a "Heroic Boss" which would make his level 82, not 83.
Do we have any numbers/testing on patchwork with the hit cap?
I'm "pretty sure" we're all missing a big point on the hit cap.
If all this testing is being done on a "Heroic Training Dummy" couldn't we assume from the name, that the mob is considered a "Heroic Boss" which would make his level 82, not 83.
Do we have any numbers/testing on patchwork with the hit cap?
No, we couldn't assume that. If they were level 82 the miss rates with 3/3 Precision would/should be coming out at 3% (6% base chance to miss specials on a level 82). If the dummy is a level 82 and the above tester had a 5% miss rate on specials with 3/3 Precision, that would mean 8% base miss on a level 82, or 11% for an 83.
It would appear that the formula for base chance to miss single-wield or specials against a level 83 at level 80 has changed from 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4% to 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.2%.
If the formula for mobs 3 levels higher has changed, I wonder if the formulas for levels 81 and 82 are still the same.
No, we couldn't assume that. If they were level 82 the miss rates with 3/3 Precision would/should be coming out at 3% (6% base chance to miss specials on a level 82). If the dummy is a level 82 and the above tester had a 5% miss rate on specials with 3/3 Precision, that would mean 8% base miss on a level 82, or 11% for an 83.
It would appear that the formula for base chance to miss single-wield or specials against a level 83 at level 80 has changed from 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4% to 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.2%.
If the formula for mobs 3 levels higher has changed, I wonder if the formulas for levels 81 and 82 are still the same.
Well, the forumla doesn't have to change so that defense skill gives less value to hit. If they went about it that way then it would affect tanks being hit aswell. It could be that the base miss chance has been lowered by 1%. Might want to test against a level 80 dummy and see what numbers you get.
Well, the forumla doesn't have to change so that defense skill gives less value to hit. If they went about it that way then it would affect tanks being hit aswell. It could be that the base miss chance has been lowered by 1%. Might want to test against a level 80 dummy and see what numbers you get.
Base miss rate is determined by this formula, so that means that if the base chance to miss has changed, then the formula has changed. Previously, there was (is?) a formula for when the target's base defense was more than 10 higher than your base weapon skill, and another for when the target's base defense was 10 or less higher than your base weapon skill. They could simply modify one formula. It wouldn't affect tanks if they only changed the first formula (unless you have a level 86 tank in your guild).
Testing against a level 80, 81, or 82 dummy or mob would only determine if the second formula changed, which we're not very worried about at the moment (although it would be interesting to see). The important formula is the first one (your base chance to miss against a boss).
Last edited by brutalbovine : 12/05/08 at 6:07 AM.
I also did another short test over 2000 swings with 2x2H just to check out if they also changed Dual Whield, but it seems like the DW miss chance is still at 28%.
Base miss rate is determined by this formula, so that means that if the base chance to miss has changed, then the formula has changed. Previously, there was (is?) a formula for when the target's base defense was more than 10 higher than your base weapon skill, and another for when the target's base defense was 10 or less higher than your base weapon skill. They could simply modify one formula. It wouldn't affect tanks if they only changed the first formula (unless you have a level 86 tank in your guild).
Testing against a level 80, 81, or 82 dummy or mob would only determine if the second formula changed, which we're not very worried about at the moment (although it would be interesting to see). The important formula is the first one (your base chance to miss against a boss).
True, but it seems more likely they changed the static portion of the formula (7% -> 6%) rather than the Defense modifier. It's somewhat relevant since it'd have PvP applications if the base hit vs. level 80 went down to 4%, but not a big deal for raid DPS.
I mentioned this a bit earlier in the thread (up towards the top of this page I think, actually), and my testing supports a 8% miss rate. Didn't see any misses at 8.2% hit with a 1H + Shield over around two thousand swings on a heroic targeting dummy; it's possible that the dummy is somehow bugged, but that seems somewhat unlikely, and the easiest way to confirm it is to have people drop down to 8% (10% with TG + Precision) and see if they ever see any yellow misses.
So, assuming my math is accurate (and if it isn't please correct me) I'm thinking Berserking in the MH and Massacre in the OH
That's been my thinking as well. Going to take some time with a targeting dummy to see how often Berserking procs in the OH, but I know someone ran some tests where over 300 WW's it never once procced off an OH swing which would make it rather subpar there.
Weapon Enchants
Using the formula I came up with on our previous posts with this subject Beserking needed around a 39-42% uptime for a warrior at 12-13K armor to be better then massacre. This is a pretty typical amount of armor for a warrior with a few pieces of leather on. So from Midgehh information about uptime% I'm going to agree with his conclusion that the best set up is probably Beserking MH / Massacre OH.
Imp Execute vs Heroic Fury
I think this one could be argued to death on the relative dps gain vs the increase in time on the boss. However, I think with the introduction of unholy aura the benefit of a root break and a 2nd intercept are rather minimal. Of course their will be exceptions to this rule and I believe this choice comes down to personal preference.
Melee hit @ 8%?
At least for TG warriors we aren't effected by this. In the thread in class mechanics discussing this I posted my WWS where I was running 13.09% hit(my armory has since changed) and observed hits. Is melee hit cap really 9%? <-- link to my post and the WWS.
I do however, believe from all the data in that thread that the hit cap did get moved to 8%, but unfortunetly for us it appears that with that move TG got left in the old system of 9% hit, so were stuck with that additional miss% till Blizzard makes a statement or bug fix on this.
True, but it seems more likely they changed the static portion of the formula (7% -> 6%) rather than the Defense modifier. It's somewhat relevant since it'd have PvP applications if the base hit vs. level 80 went down to 4%, but not a big deal for raid DPS.
It's unlikely to be relevant to PVP, since fighting someone the same level as yourself uses a different formula than the one for bosses and +3 mobs. If it's determined definitively that the base miss rate against bosses has been reduced, testing will have to be done to see if the base miss against non-bosses has changed, since they were two different formulas.
So over the whole fight the effective gain in AP was:
Bearshoe: 378*57% = 215.46
Midgehh: 378*30.5% = 115.29
So, assuming my math is accurate (and if it isn't please correct me) I'm thinking Berserking in the MH and Massacre in the OH
Let's take Midg as an example. That 115 AP is average per minute, yeah? Obviously thats 5 more AP over massacre, but that is a minimal gain. If berserking is not up 100% during all procs, lusts, etc then it must be a dps loss vs always having an extra static 110 AP figured into every single temporary buff to your dps. Actually, Massacre should give 121 AP anyway.
Not trying to pick on you, Mid. I was very excited to try Berserking, but the more I watch it during raids and think about it logically, the more I think it's a dps loss if you were to look at each fight second by second and redo calculations for everything.
Let's take Midg as an example. That 115 AP is average per minute, yeah? Obviously thats 5 more AP over massacre, but that is a minimal gain. If berserking is not up 100% during all procs, lusts, etc then it must be a dps loss vs always having an extra static 110 AP figured into every single temporary buff to your dps. Actually, Massacre should give 121 AP anyway.
Not trying to pick on you, Mid. I was very excited to try Berserking, but the more I watch it during raids and think about it logically, the more I think it's a dps loss if you were to look at each fight second by second and redo calculations for everything.
Which is also why Midg stated that Massacre should be on OH, Berserking on MH. Midg had Berserking on OH only, Bear had Berserking on MH only during those tests.
Some pretty extensive testing will have to be done to really narrow down which is going to prove to be top DPS overall, as it looks right now they are pretty close to one another. The chance at downtime during BL/DW/Trinkets etc could be a major dps loss. So IMO Berserking would have to have quite a large average AP gain to compensate.
Let's take Midg as an example. That 115 AP is average per minute, yeah? Obviously thats 5 more AP over massacre, but that is a minimal gain. If berserking is not up 100% during all procs, lusts, etc then it must be a dps loss vs always having an extra static 110 AP figured into every single temporary buff to your dps. Actually, Massacre should give 121 AP anyway.
Not trying to pick on you, Mid. I was very excited to try Berserking, but the more I watch it during raids and think about it logically, the more I think it's a dps loss if you were to look at each fight second by second and redo calculations for everything.
Which is also why Midg stated that Massacre should be on OH, Berserking on MH. Midg had Berserking on OH only, Bear had Berserking on MH only during those tests.
Some pretty extensive testing will have to be done to really narrow down which is going to prove to be top DPS overall, as it looks right now they are pretty close to one another. The chance at downtime during BL/DW/Trinkets etc could be a major dps loss. So IMO Berserking would have to have quite a large average AP gain to compensate.
Originally Posted by Midgehh
the 115ap is the average over the whole fight.
and don't forget massacre is actually 121AP
right, so I'm not seeing how Berserking is a gain here
12/04/08, 11:44 AM
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