I disagree as with every new dungeon comes a new patch which also includes changes to classes. As happened when Ulduar got released you may expect them to retune warriors yet again at the release of the next patch if they will have reached a performance which is thought to be overpowered again. If this line of thinking proceeds into the future (having warriors scale better than other classes but starting at the bottom of the dps-pyramid) we'll always be those that underperform during progress and get blamed for being overpowered when everything is on farm status.

Has anyone ever calculated the estimated or expected DPS loss due to Deep Wounds 'munching'? I mean I know it exists. Its apparent when you WW crit both MH and OH attacks. You will only get the Deep Wounds damage for the OH. I would assume then, at any time you crit at the 'same time' you will continually lose Deep Wounds damage. Has anyone ever tried to calculate how much we actually lose?

Would it be better if I post this in the spreadsheet thread?

I actually enjoy the GCD usage of farming more, simply because we get to use Victory Rush. It's always felt like a neglected ability for fury and I would have much preferred for Bloodsurge to have worked with it, rather than slam. It also would have delinked Arms from Fury a bit more, so that Blizz could buff one or the other depending on which spec was the FOTM and doing more dmg than expected.

I must say i feel like the more "elegant" solution to a lot of fury problems lies in something that was once assumed about TG nerf.

What if TG only reduced the damage by 10%, if you used TWO 2handers? So a 2h+1hoffhand wouldnt have this problem. We gain following benefits.

- More spread for weapons - not only 2h are usable
- Faster attacks increasing pace of TG
- Smoother rage generation
- Less burst for PvP which also seemed to concern some people.

This change ironically enough does NOT increase dps significantly. Its basically the same. The 2h offhand is THAT powerful (coupled with fact that 1h off wont benefit from 2h spec). It however gives us a good point to "start" tweaking TG. Its less dependant on 2h spec so it can be moved around,

As for where to get the actual buffs.

- Flurry - increased to 4 charges. Flurry dropping off even at higher gear levels is simply not fun. Its a RNG effect that does make your rage generation even less consistent. It doesnt seem to change a lot in terms of dps, but makes fury less RNG-ed.


- Precision - buffed to 2/4/6%.

- Bloodsurge buffed to 8/16/25%

I just hope they introduce a new fury mechanic, because it is really really really boring to play fury. It's too bad, since fury has more end-game potential then arms, and TBH fury outperforms arms -- or is very close too -- in good ulduar gear, from what I have seen. And really, the WWS backs this up.

I don't think there will be any game mechanic changes, new talents, or anything like that until at least 3.2 and probably not until next expansion. We are getting a minor buff, not a class review or anything like that. A lot of people, not this these forums either, seem way too excited about a couple blue posts which will inevitably lead to disappointment.


I dont think the Devs do that intentionally, they just continually fail to take into account things that don't scale linearly. Armor pen is the perfect example of that, anyone who knows how the ArP formula works would have seen that stacking it close to the cap would give huge returns, and it really should have been addressed before they buffed it. Rage mechanics are the same way.

ArP will start to pull ahead of STR for Fury when you start to reach 6k DPS and ~35%+ passive ArP.

As for this, I really dont see the difference between Arms and Fury. Where do people get this idea that Arms is far more challenging or fun? Perhaps is just because a placebo effect of believing you're doing something new and entertaining. The reality is that both specs play pretty similarly. At least thats my perspective.

Both have a "hard cooldown" on 2 abilities. BT and WW for Fury, MS and OP for Arms. Both have a random proc addition. Slam for Fury, Execute for Arms. Both burn excess rage with another ability. HS for Fury, Slam for Arms. Both monitor a lengthy cooldown, Death Wish for Fury, Bladestorm for Arms. Really the only difference that I see is that you keep Rend up when you are Arms. Personally I dont find it any more challenging or fun. As I stated and outlined, I think the 2 specs are actually remarkably similar.

Class changes for balance reasons are not a problem. Blizzard went overboard by a significant margin this time, but if you look at all of TBC Warriors stayed pretty much in the same spot compared to Rogues and the rest of the classes from the beginning until the end of Sunwell. This expansion almost seems to be an entirely different game as well as a different development process but just because we got hit hard early once, that doesn't mean it's the new status quo to maintain.

The Worst thing that Fury Tree misses is Expertise or chance to reduce dodge like it used to be.


we have to squize every part of gear to get that expertise and thus making itemization hard.


also
what makes Arms so good? white dmg having the same hit chance has skills(aka 8% - 1 twohand).
in fury we miss alot and with 2 slow weapons it hurts more

ofc were not supposed to hit everything but missing alot is also bad for rage

I don't see the lack of dodge reduction making itemization hard. On the contrary, it makes it easier as you are more flexible in choosing your gear. Lack of Expertise can always be overcome by socketing for it, but if you have too much expertise on gear already, you will not want to use a piece of gear that would be BiS if the expertise weren't wasted.

I'm NOT saying, that the lack of anti-dodge increases our DpS (of course it doesn't), but it opens up more flexibility in gear choices as long as there are enough gem slots to overcome any shortage. So I don't see it as the "worst thing" for the Fury tree.

It's useless. A castsequence macro could be used to some extend, but it won't come near a player doing the rotation properly.
Your macro isn't even this, it picks the abilities at random.

Arms is very GCD dependant and you need to make full use of your priority list. The optimal case is using a skill with no cast-time every GCD. Slam is used as a filler when the rest is on CD. However by smart prioritizing depending on the situation you can eliminate the "downtime" filled by slams. You also get the chance to use juggernaut effectively in many situations. You also have to keep Rend up, and re-apply it at just the right time or you waste a GCD, and time OP before the timer is reset if you got plenty SD procs etc.

Fury is braindead because the only proc you have is Slam! which is _4_ seconds. You simply dont have time to add it to your rotation -effectively-. If you prioritize Slam! over WW and BT, sure you may get more slams (like if they proc in a row) but the dmg diff. if you just WW and BT and then filled with Slam when they are on CD is non-existent. You don't have to consider any rend or additional procs. It's WW,BT,Slam... and while you do all this, mash HS key. Atleast mages have cast-time on their fireball and dont have to mash like maniacs every microsecond to prevent serverlagg.

Fury needs to be reworked imo, and the main problem is HS mechanics.

Oh and delysid, it's very simple.

Whirlwind -> Bloodthrist -> Slam! procs.

All this while mashing heroic strike button.

As arms I'm GCD capped. As fury, I'm glued to watching my rage bar. I can go from 60 rage to watching a slam proc rot super quick. Arms now has 1 proc to watch - SD. TFB basically comes on every 6 seconds like a WW replacement. Even better, it comes on every 6 seconds like clockwork regardless of when you use it. I find DPSing as arms to be pretty darn easy. It's just a matter of weaving about 5 buttons. Because you rarely HS, rage management is easy. You never miss a white attack so rage comes on regularly. What fury has an advantage in is utility. It is much easier to maintain sunder/demo with the spare GCDs while being able to pummel freely. I've just gotten back to the point where I've retrained my rage management enough that I when I go fury I'm not utterly failing at dps.

This is a quite simplistic way of describing arms.
The same way could be describing fury as "you hit 2 buttons then often use hs and watch for 1 proc".
You anyway underlined an arms issue that fury doesn't suffer so much: sundering. This is not the place to discuss it btw.
It's also much more difficult to manage HS when playing arms since you easily get starved for 1 (or even more) gcd killing your dps.

You never miss, but you still glance, and rage usage is much higher than fury:
MS: 30 rage
OP: 5 rage
Slam: 15 rage
Execute: 10-30 rage

If you align MS on a 5.5s CD you have MS-OP-Slam(exe)-Slam(exe).
so Arms use 30+5 and depending on your procs and talents you go for another 10+10 to 30+30 rage (lucky exe procs).
Generally you have 2 slams for another 30 rage making it 65 rage / 5.5s = 11.81 rps. Spare rage is generally banked for next rotation unless over 80sh. once every 4 rotations you use a 10 rage (Rend).

Fury in 16 secs gets 2WW and 3 BT for 8.44 rps. You bank up to 60sh before using HS.

Arms basically consumes 40% more rage but produces only +25% while fury, even with less hit, has the advantage of getting rage even when using hs on MH.
Arms isnt really smoother and is much more lag dependant since you use every possible gcd.

At low level fury is much easier but much less rewarding (you just ww-bt and some random slam).
At intermediate level Arms is performing better, a great fury player can do as good btw.
At max level (when you are tuning your performance in a 1-2% gap) they both are difficult.

Arms is not really easier than fury. It's just that at low and intermediate gear levels mashing random buttons as arms can pull out better damage than fury can with better skills.
This is mostly due to scaling btw, and in the end of t8 fury will be better than arms.

At such point the positions swap: A less skilled fury will outplay a pro skilled arms supposing same gear.

Yeah. I'm gathering some fury gear for the supposed DPS buffs too, and getting some BiS ulduar gear for the patch.

Grymm summed it up pretty good.

However in ulduar gear in general ulduar encounters it's hard to go out of rage.

Just wondering, but are many of you stacking ArP now? I'm seeing other Fury warriors gemming for ArP.
I'm still sticking w/gemming for Str (of course I did have to throw 2 +Exp gems to hit the cap.)

I'm thinking about an Improved Cleave/Cleave Glyph setup as a secondary spec in addition to my primary fury spec.

Because Imp Cleave has always been so situational its hasn't been part of my fury spec since 60, but with the introduction of duel specs and the numerous mulit-target boss fights in Ulduar I'm curious to see what kind of dps increase it could provide and how it would compare to arms multi-target dps. Has anyone been messing around with it?

Fights like Razorscale, Iron Council hard mode, Kologarn, Auriaya, Freya, Thorim's arena... these are already my best fights dps-wise, mostly due to the add phases/mechanics where Cleave is 15%-20% of my damage.

Dropping 3 points from Commanding Presence and an Execution Glyph don't really strike me as big cons...

This seems to be a theme in this thread (and the arms thread and the dps spreadsheet thread), "Should I switch my str gems for ArP gems?" The answer is (as has been stated in earlier posts), it depends on your current ArP. The best way to determine whether it is beneficial to regem for ArP is to refer to Landsoul's Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet.

I've been using Improved Cleave + Cleave Glyph for a while now, and have been impressed with the results. I get a lot more use out of that combination than the points in CP and the Execution glyph. Execution is a really small portion of my dps during a fight as fury, and CP is wasted in the group I typically raid with for 25 mans.

Anytime you're fighting 3+ mobs close together the combination is a significant benefit and with Ulduar single target damage is no longer the one and true measure of viability anymore, the AE and small group damage is useful in a lot of the fights.

One thing I've noticed is that cleave on Kologarn is somewhat less useful that expected. It doesn't seem to actually cleave to the other portions of the body like one would expect, and I'm never on the adds for that fight.

Yes, good idea. Sorry, I can't believe I didn't punch this into the Spreadsheet already, I already have my gear loaded and usually refer to that for all changes.
* I punched in swapping about 6 gems to add +118 ArP, resulted in -20 DPS and +9.58% ArP.