Kalroth, is it possible to make the simulator have an auto attack -> heroic strike track with a given attack speed and heroic strike frequency? For example, if HSF was 50%, it would be heroic, auto, heroic, auto. If HSF was 75%, it would be heroic, heroic, heroic, auto, heroic, heroic, heroic, auto, etc.
Now based on those heroic strikes, new slam!'s would be created.
I would also like to see a decisional slam process using given constraints?
I've added autoattacks and heroic strikes to the simulator: Simple Fury Rotation.
Note that it's only main hand attacks for now. Off-hand attacks aren't relevant before I add damage/rage simulation.
I'm not sure about the decision process, I'd need some sort of "real" priority to begin with. Something like a BTEP system for attacks that uses a GCD and I'd need a lot more input to be able to calculate that (attack power, crit %, talents, etc. etc.). There's a reason that I've left damage done out of the picture for now :-)
I'd like to rewrite everything to JavaScript/HTML though, so people can scrutinize the code and the formulas. Right now it's a big PHP mess and has way outgrown its original purpose.
I stumbled upon something weird when using your spreadsheet Landsoul. I just got a Rune Edge sword and because we are able to kill xt-002 normal on hardmode I wanted to know how big an upgrade Aesir's Edge would be over Rune Edge.
Aesir's Edge is ranked higher then Rune Edge but if I put it in the spreadsheet the dps goes down compared to using Rune Edge. I recalculated the SEP values but I just can't understand this. Str is valued a lot higher then agil/crit.
Is it because of the slower speed of Aesir's Edge that it interferes too much with heroic strike usage? The higher damage should be an improvement for whirlwind, heroic strike and slam damage. Is it maybe a rage issue?
So before I pick up an Aesir's Edge and make all the dk's and retri's cry, is it really an upgrade over Rune Edge?
I stumbled upon something weird when using your spreadsheet Landsoul. I just got a Rune Edge sword and because we are able to kill xt-002 normal on hardmode I wanted to know how big an upgrade Aesir's Edge would be over Rune Edge.
Aesir's Edge is ranked higher then Rune Edge but if I put it in the spreadsheet the dps goes down compared to using Rune Edge. I recalculated the SEP values but I just can't understand this. Str is valued a lot higher then agil/crit.
Is it because of the slower speed of Aesir's Edge that it interferes too much with heroic strike usage? The higher damage should be an improvement for whirlwind, heroic strike and slam damage. Is it maybe a rage issue?
So before I pick up an Aesir's Edge and make all the dk's and retri's cry, is it really an upgrade over Rune Edge?
Spreadsheet only shows what item is better with your current rest of gear. You might have a DPS decrease due to be low on any important cap, etc. Please use your brain with the spreadsheet, it's not magical, it needs you think and interpret the results.
BTW, remember to put in gems when exchange Rune Edge with Aesir's Edge...
I've seen a couple posts on this recently, so figured a quick note instead of a direct response to one of them would be appropriate.
NO DPS STAT SCALES INDEPENDANTLY. None of them. They each have an effect on the effectiveness of the other stats. Every point in Str makes Arp/Crit/Haste/Whatever more effective. Every point in ArP does the same, they all have an effect on the other stats. Here's an example of what I mean:
You have the AP/Weapon Damage/whatever to hit for 4K every 3 seconds. With everything else being equal, you add enough ArP to increase that value by 10% to 4400.
Looking at a different warrier with magically the same ArP rating but really bad gear and hitting for 2K every 3 seconds. With everything else being equal, you add enough ArP to increase that value by 10% to 2200.
The same ArP increase is suddenly worth half as much dps. Why? Because it's the same % increase on a smaller value, so the ArP is worth less.
This is why there is no 'magic mark' but rather a guideline; this is why if you suddenly swap out all your Str gems for ArP you may not see an increase despite ArP having a SEP value slightly greater than one. You've reduced how much you hit for by enough to overcome the ArP increase to dps.
There's also the issue of the ArP cap and how it interracts. 100% is the limit. If you're proccing over 100%? The procs are less effective, and ArP is worth less than it was right before hitting that cap.
Overall I'd reckon Aesirs Edge to be superior to Rune Edge.
It boils down to a tradeoff of 2.2% crit (Rune Edge) and 200 AP (Aesirs Edge with STR gems) ... which should by all means be comparable (unless your crit rate is horribly low).
But the 0.2 lower speed of Aesirs Edge would be a flat bonus on top of that. That alone amounts to something like 200 extra AP affecting instants (WW, OP, MS). Slam should benefit in a similiar way if I am not mistaken.
Well , he is actually right. The spreadsheet tends to have some discrepancy between the list and actual dps values when it comes to weapon speed. Basically SEP attached to increased weapon swing time is probably a bit too high. Its not a major problem, but it happens there.
As for the particular weapons - Rune edge has better stats. I know that new imp BS makes people look for STR as superior stat to agi/ap combo, but its basically not. Another reason why I call new IBS a simple nerf - leather is STILL better given other things equal - and on weapons where you dont have AttT to compensate its especially visible.
Str is valued a lot higher then agil/crit
You compare STR vs AGI + AP. Aesirs has 117+32 (lets just assume you gem 2x16STR) = 149STR. On other hand Rune edge has 160 AP 121 Agi or 80 *2AP +121 Agi to use spreadsheet values. Both 2AP and AGI are valued around 0.75 of STR so those stats together are worth a tiny bit more. Rune edge also has a tiny bit more crit/arp further pushing it ahead. Only thing Aesir has for it is slower speed - but its simply not enough.
In general using the 0.75 SEP value of AP and Agi, I can give you a rough math here:
If we assume that weapon A (agi based) has 5 different stats (Agi/AP/Stam + 2 other dps valued at 0.85 SEP), and weapon B has 4 (STR/STAM and same 2 other dps) then weapon A is "worth" approximately 2-3% more then weapon B in itemization. That counts the usually lower stamina on agi stuff.
The reason why agi weapons pull more ahead is that given the same circumstances STR items are more "off balance" - offering more STR compared to other dps stats. Like in example above its almost 150 str but 64 arp 75 or so crit. Agility weapons have more "even" stats , which works better with itemization.
Another thing to note with Landsoul's spreadsheet. It uses old (too high) rage formula. New one will actually probably value agility/crit even more because of rage generation effect, and as such will push rune edge even higher.
The following items have had their stats increased to properly reflect their item level: Earthshaper, Valorous Siegebreaker Shoulderplates, and Conqueror’s Siegebreaker Shoulderplates.
You compare STR vs AGI + AP. Aesirs has 117+32 (lets just assume you gem 2x16STR) = 149STR. On other hand Rune edge has 160 AP 121 Agi or 80 *2AP +121 Agi to use spreadsheet values. Both 2AP and AGI are valued around 0.75 of STR so those stats together are worth a tiny bit more. Rune edge also has a tiny bit more crit/arp further pushing it ahead. Only thing Aesir has for it is slower speed - but its simply not enough.
While I generally agree on the leather vs plate stats allocation discrepancy you mention, I beg to differ in this particuliar case.
150STR are 150*1.2*1.1 = 198 STR (in a raid setting)
120 AGI are 132 stats in a raid setting .. .add to this 80 (from 160 AP which are not affected by improved BS and kings)
So you are comparing almost 200 stat points (worth 1) to 215 stats (worth 0.75%).
That alone are more than 30 SEP in favour of Aesirs Edge.
Lets say the marginal crit and ArP plus stats on Rune Edge make these a wash.
There still is the lower weapon speed.
Aesirs Ege hits for 45 more dmg on average.
These 45 plus dmg are akin to 45*14/3.3 = 190 AP working on every OP,WW,Slam.
Even if slam and WW account only for 20% of your total dmg, this is 40 "hidden" AP right there.
Only if your crit rate is really low the significant amount of plus crit on Rune Edge could turn this around.
Thing is you calculated the IBS and kings TWICE. First you multiplied STR by 1.1 and 1.2 and then you used 0.75 SEP multiplier which is that low BECAUSE of IBS and kings. Without IBS/kings 2AP obviously is worth 1SEP, and so is 1 AGI (roughly).
Don't forget that +0,2 Weapon Speed isn't only a advantage, you get less HS (and therefore less times the bonus damage of this ability). This counteracts the slower speed a bit on top of that the most ability's, besides Slam, beeing normalized attacks.
The spreadsheet is showing me both weapons about equal in mainhand -- in offhand Rune Edge is clearly ahead...
What the spreadsheet doesn't know: the unsynchronized speed of having 3,6 and 3,4 speed weapons is a advantage for rage management over double 3,4 speed. So even when Aesir's Edge will be a bit inferior to Rune Edge soon, I wouldn't recommend to wear double Rune Edge, to waste less rage on overshooting the rage bar (eg. synchronized hits/crits).
If you're using Landsouls spreadsheet you can check out Armor Calcs table at cell A55. The table shows your armor pen along with grim toll or runestone procs. Once your armor pen is over 100% with those procs it becomes better to gem strength again. Any armor pen proc that takes you over 100% is a wasted stat.
IE: You have a 16 arp gem and runestone and the spreadsheet says %101 for Runestone, that means you're wasting that 1% of armor pen where you could have placed a 16str gem somewhere instead.
Now with that being said, when would other DPS trinkets start to become more useful then grimtoll or Mjolnir rune stone. I understand how good they are but I need 1 more piece of gear and i can regem ARP and go up to 60% arp (w.o raid debuffs and buffs) while maintaining 35.50 crit and 4200ish AP. Once i hit that would a wrath stone be better for me? since Grimtoll would push me a good 40% over 100 when it procs.
Sorry for questions that probably could be obtainable via spread sheet but i do not have a way to get Excel on this computer atm.
What the spreadsheet doesn't know: the unsynchronized speed of having 3,6 and 3,4 speed weapons is a advantage for rage management over double 3,4 speed.
I used to have synced 3.6 speed weapons and I solved the problem as follows:
Run to the mob / boss you want to attack and /startattack or right click as soon as you are in melee range, but not earlier. If you do that, your mainhand will attack immediately, your offhand after 1.8 seconds. The next mainhand swing will be at 3.6 seconds and so on (assuming a 3.6 weapon and no haste to keep it simple).
If you /startattack oder right click on the mob while not being in melee range, your weapons will by synced, because they hit both as soon as you get in melee range.
You can't do that in every fight, but I think it leads to better dps at Patchwerk like fights, especially considering Execute, because you have rage to fill nearly every gcd with Execute below 20% mob health.
Note: this little trick is useless if you use Heroic Throw, because it resets the swing timers of both weapons and syncs them again.
Now with that being said, when would other DPS trinkets start to become more useful then grimtoll or Mjolnir rune stone. I understand how good they are but I need 1 more piece of gear and i can regem ARP and go up to 60% arp (w.o raid debuffs and buffs) while maintaining 35.50 crit and 4200ish AP. Once i hit that would a wrath stone be better for me? since Grimtoll would push me a good 40% over 100 when it procs.
Sorry for questions that probably could be obtainable via spread sheet but i do not have a way to get Excel on this computer atm.
If you're using Mjolnir Runestone then grimtoll is not as big of an increase as wrathstone. Provided sufficient hit rating, of course.
This also depends on your arpen of course, but it's pretty abundant these days. According to the spreadsheet wrathstone always beats out grim toll for me.
I used to have synced 3.6 speed weapons and I solved the problem as follows:
Run to the mob / boss you want to attack and /startattack or right click as soon as you are in melee range, but not earlier. If you do that, your mainhand will attack immediately, your offhand after 1.8 seconds. The next mainhand swing will be at 3.6 seconds and so on (assuming a 3.6 weapon and no haste to keep it simple).
If you /startattack oder right click on the mob while not being in melee range, your weapons will by synced, because they hit both as soon as you get in melee range.
You can't do that in every fight, but I think it leads to better dps at Patchwerk like fights, especially considering Execute, because you have rage to fill nearly every gcd with Execute below 20% mob health.
Note: this little trick is useless if you use Heroic Throw, because it resets the swing timers of both weapons and syncs them again.
Wow that sounds so broken, is this really true? Is the spreadsheet assuming you use this "trick"?
Wow that sounds so broken, is this really true? Is the spreadsheet assuming you use this "trick"?
Its not really broken, the game delays your OH when you start combat with any speed as far as I know. But hitting attack while outside of range uses that delay time up so you end up synced when you get there. It is still very annoying to try to keep weapons unsynced because on very few fights do you get 100% contact time on a single target. And the sheet doesn't care if your weapons are in sync or not, thats up to you.
What the spreadsheet doesn't know: the unsynchronized speed of having 3,6 and 3,4 speed weapons is a advantage for rage management over double 3,4 speed.
While unsynchronized weapons will make your rage generation a little less spikey, it also reduces the benefit of Flurry.
Two weapons: both speed 3.40
00:00.000 - Both weapons hit, one of them crits, Flurry is now up for the next 3 attacks.
00:02.550 - Both weapons hit again, Flurry stack is down to 1.
00:05.110 - Both weapons hit again, Flurry fades but both attacks benefited from it until then.
Two weapons: mainhand speed 3.60, offhand speed 3.40
00:00.000 - Both weapons hit, one of them crits, Flurry is now up for the next 3 attacks.
00:02.550 - OH weapon hit, Flurry stack is down to 2.
00:02.700 - MH weapon hit, Flurry stack is down to 1.
00:05.110 - OH weapon hit, Flurry fades.
00:05.458 - MH weapon hit, but since Flurry faded earlier this attack will land a little later.
I was wondering if it was worth going back to fury with the new inc changes to BT?
Blue post:
# Blood Frenzy: This talent now provides 5/10% haste instead of 3/6%.
# Bloodthirst: Cooldown reduced from 5 seconds to 4 seconds, and rage cost reduced from 30 rage to 20 rage.
or is arms still the way to go as PvE dps.
Last question is, is it worth getting the 4th set bouns on the new tier. The reason why i'm asking is that imo the gloves, legs and shoulders can be replaced by far better items.
Right now i'm still using the T7.25 shoulders as imo they are BiS.
I don't like the idea of using T8.25 legs over Clockwork Legplates since it has all that ArP on it.
And as for the gloves, i'm using the ArP badge gloves.
I was wondering if it was worth going back to fury with the new inc changes to BT?
Blue post:
# Blood Frenzy: This talent now provides 5/10% haste instead of 3/6%.
# Bloodthirst: Cooldown reduced from 5 seconds to 4 seconds, and rage cost reduced from 30 rage to 20 rage.
or is arms still the way to go as PvE dps.
Blood Frenzy is in the Arms tree, not the Fury tree.
As for the Fury vs Arms question; try it - I know I plan to. Arms isn't the best for all fights in Ulduar, but neither is Fury. Switch between both specs for the appropriate fight and you'll see that you overall do more DPS. It also depends if you're the only DPS warrior in the raid or if there's a second DPS warrior.
The following items have had their stats increased to properly reflect their item level: Earthshaper, Valorous Siegebreaker Shoulderplates, and Conqueror’s Siegebreaker Shoulderplates.
Should make T8 shoulders more desirable.
A measly 10 hit rating was added to both shoulders (according to Wowhead comments), so in my book it's a minimal buff at best.
Agreed, since I'm already swimming in hit, they could have buffed any other stat (except maybe stam) and it might have felt worthwhile. As it is, I still have almost no interest in upgrading from Valorous Dreadnaught shoulders.
Blood Frenzy is in the Arms tree, not the Fury tree.
As for the Fury vs Arms question; try it - I know I plan to. Arms isn't the best for all fights in Ulduar, but neither is Fury. Switch between both specs for the appropriate fight and you'll see that you overall do more DPS. It also depends if you're the only DPS warrior in the raid or if there's a second DPS warrior.
It would be nice to get a list of what spec to use on what boss, I have noticed close numbers on bosses like ignis for both mainly because it is a mobile fight while fury absolutely rapes on Kologorn, Razorscale and Auriaya. Still not sure about fights like XT, Hodir and Freya. Also, with certain fights like Thorim I noticed that going as Fury can increase your dps in the arena but you can also die really easy with a bad WW, this is true in alot of fights in Ulduar.
06/02/09, 7:47 AM
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