Not to say that I don't like the idea, but I think that this would make Fury > Arms by changing that. Especially since there is nothing preventing someone to put 2 pts in Improved Execute as Arms at the moment (they can easely not put points in Blood Frenzy and have a Rogue keep Savage Combat up). So really Arms spec warriors would not be gaining much out of this deal.
Are you forgetting that Blood Frenzy also increases your attack speed by 10% as well as applying the increase of all physical damage caused to that target by 4%? (2/2 Rank)
But at the end of the day the best way to know is to try it out, do a run with all ArP gems and compare the run to your WWS from the week before when you had all STR gems.
I did this, and it was a waist of about 2k gold gemming back and forth, the spreadsheet is correct, and cheeper. STR gems are working better for fury especialy since bloodthirst coodown changed.
It's not best for me. In my gear ArP beats Strength. Just barely mind you. But it does beat it. Download me into the spreadsheet and you'll see this. Gear for Strength and ArP. At some gear level you'll be able to gem for ArP as well. Granted only to the trinkets soft cap.
I dont know which one is best, mainly because the dps increase or decrease would be so minimal i couldn't tell w.o some extensive testing. But i have a mix of ARP and str gems, mainly to prioritze around Grimtoll. With my set up grimtoll procs jump it to 100.30ish arp rating or something like that. I figure that will be the best set up with gems that i will get. (to optimize grimtoll)
How accurate do you guys feel Rawr is for Fury Gearing Ratings? Some of their ratings seem a bit funny for Fury Gear, but I know a couple people that are very knowledgeable about other classes that swear by Rawr.
I don't have access to Microsoft Office and since last I knew Landsoul's Spreadsheet doesn't work with Open Office otherwise I would obviously use that.
How accurate do you guys feel Rawr is for Fury Gearing Ratings? Some of their ratings seem a bit funny for Fury Gear, but I know a couple people that are very knowledgeable about other classes that swear by Rawr.
I don't have access to Microsoft Office and since last I knew Landsoul's Spreadsheet doesn't work with Open Office otherwise I would obviously use that.
Then get Office 07.
Seriously, since Wrath, every spec or gear swaps I have encountered have been more accurate in Landsoul's spreadsheet.
On several encounters in Ulduar, there are wave upon wave of adds for the group to take care of or multiple targets for the dps to take down. There are the adds during Razorscale, Thorim's little helpers, the add packs for Freya, the arms and body of Kologarn, the various kitties with Auriaya, potential close ice blocks on Hodir, the base and body on phase 4 of Mimiron, and cleaning up any scrapbots that get through on Deconstructor. Aside from this, there is trash aplenty to clear before even getting to many of the bosses.
My question to the general group here is how many of you are using cleave on a regular basis and, if so, are you talented and glyphed for it? On single target fights, heroic strike is obviously better due to slightly higher damage output and the potential for bloodsurge procs. However, it seems like Cleave can play a much more important role in Ulduar than it did in Naxx.
On the fights that I mentioned above, I am almost positive that using Cleave is more efficient than heroic strike on two targets. That is not what I'm really looking for. Specifically, is it wise to glyph for it (replacing glyph of execution probably) and to spend talent points on it (replacing potential talents such as Improved Berzerker rage, Anger Management, Improved execute, Unbridled Wrath, improved shouts, etc.).
In a perfect world, I could obviously respec and reglyph from fight to fight but I'm no where near needing to Min/Max that much. In the end, I'm guessing that it really comes down to personal preference but I wanted to see what everyone here thought and your reasons for running the way you do.
On several encounters in Ulduar, there are wave upon wave of adds for the group to take care of or multiple targets for the dps to take down. There are the adds during Razorscale, Thorim's little helpers, the add packs for Freya, the arms and body of Kologarn, the various kitties with Auriaya, potential close ice blocks on Hodir, the base and body on phase 4 of Mimiron, and cleaning up any scrapbots that get through on Deconstructor. Aside from this, there is trash aplenty to clear before even getting to many of the bosses.
My question to the general group here is how many of you are using cleave on a regular basis and, if so, are you talented and glyphed for it? On single target fights, heroic strike is obviously better due to slightly higher damage output and the potential for bloodsurge procs. However, it seems like Cleave can play a much more important role in Ulduar than it did in Naxx.
On the fights that I mentioned above, I am almost positive that using Cleave is more efficient than heroic strike on two targets. That is not what I'm really looking for. Specifically, is it wise to glyph for it (replacing glyph of execution probably) and to spend talent points on it (replacing potential talents such as Improved Berzerker rage, Anger Management, Improved execute, Unbridled Wrath, improved shouts, etc.).
In a perfect world, I could obviously respec and reglyph from fight to fight but I'm no where near needing to Min/Max that much. In the end, I'm guessing that it really comes down to personal preference but I wanted to see what everyone here thought and your reasons for running the way you do.
Thanks in advance for your responses!
Glyph of Execute sucks for fury, the only fight I even use execute on anymore is Hodir, if I have storm power. Cleave all the way.
Cleave is a great way to up your damage and it's perfect for many of the situations you've listed. While I've been arms for most of t8, in t7 I was both glyphed and talented for cleave and it was extremely powerful. Fights like 3D, Faerlina, Noth, and phase 2 Maly I couldn't be touched by other dpsers by being able to maintain very high single target dps while destroying secondary targets with cleave/ ww. You can easily drop points from imp execute (since you won't be using it much), unbridled wrath, or commanding presence (assuming imp might and another warrior for commanding) to put two or three in imp cleave.
Hello everyone
My question to the general group here is how many of you are using cleave on a regular basis and, if so, are you talented and glyphed for it? On single target fights, heroic strike is obviously better due to slightly higher damage output and the potential for bloodsurge procs. However, it seems like Cleave can play a much more important role in Ulduar than it did in Naxx.
On the fights that I mentioned above, I am almost positive that using Cleave is more efficient than heroic strike on two targets. That is not what I'm really looking for. Specifically, is it wise to glyph for it (replacing glyph of execution probably) and to spend talent points on it (replacing potential talents such as Improved Berzerker rage, Anger Management, Improved execute, Unbridled Wrath, improved shouts, etc.).
!
I really think you already know the answer from your post. Cleave can be incredibly useful for burn adds of any sort. Personally I'm glyphed and talented for it. As fury our glyph choices are very limited anyways and depending on your raid group you might not need certain talents which free up your points in the tree.
The only thing you need to be careful with cleave is rage starvation. The beauty with HS is the rage feedback on crits. I've found myself not paying attention and cleaving only to be suddenly out of rage for a FAR more valuable WW.
Last I tried Kologarn about a week ago, Cleave didn't hit the body when I was attacking the Right Arm, although Whirlwinds did. Does it hit the Arms if you target the body? And even if it did, would you want to be focusing your damage on the body just to get 3-hit Cleaves? The common strategy is to focus on the Right Arm.
Last I tried Kologarn about a week ago, Cleave didn't hit the body when I was attacking the Right Arm, although Whirlwinds did. Does it hit the Arms if you target the body? And even if it did, would you want to be focusing your damage on the body just to get 3-hit Cleaves? The common strategy is to focus on the Right Arm.
This is because WW has 8 meter range and cleave only 3. You have to stand direktly near the body so that you can hit arm+body.
Last I tried Kologarn about a week ago, Cleave didn't hit the body when I was attacking the Right Arm, although Whirlwinds did. Does it hit the Arms if you target the body? And even if it did, would you want to be focusing your damage on the body just to get 3-hit Cleaves? The common strategy is to focus on the Right Arm.
Glyph of Cleave is mighty for phase 4 Mimiron, hits all 3 pieces of "V07-TR-ON".
Glyph of Execute sucks for fury, the only fight I even use execute on anymore is Hodir, if I have storm power. Cleave all the way.
idd .. the only thing is that if your benefits for raid are substituted or not by other classes .. then i would talent for it .. atm i only use glyph
important is (as pointed out by Uglesh) to watch rage ... it is same case as with HS .. you use it only when you are allowed to with not damaging your rotation... ofc exception (at least for me) is thorim's arena where i prefer cleave over BT/HS so main rotation is WW>cleave and with exceeding rage i play
This is because WW has 8 meter range and cleave only 3. You have to stand direktly near the body so that you can hit arm+body.
I thought it was not possible to hit Kologarn and both arms with cleave. I've tried a few times unsuccessfully. I've also looked up several combat logs and have not found any where cleave worked. Do you have any logs showing cleave working?
I never thought about using cleave on phase 4 Mimiron, and will try that out next time.
Thank you all very much for those insightful responses. It seems like utilizing cleave along with talents and the glyph is really the way to go. I have set up a 18/53 spec that does not talent into Anger Management, Improved Berzerker rage, unbridled wrath, or improved execute but that includes 3/3 Improved Cleave and full shout improvement. I'll give that a whirl and see how it goes.
@Uglesh - EXCELLENT point about the rage return on heroic strike crits. Raid buffed, I'm guessing most of us are around 50% crit. Losing out on that 10 rage on every other heroic strike is something that needs to be noted. After you mentioned it, I got to thinking and probably have been delaying a few WW's and BT's because I'm out of rage after cleaving. That is something that I will need to manage quite a bit closer.
@Anik - Is it really possible to hit the head portion of Mimiron on phase 4 with cleave? I didn't think we could reach it but I guess I have never really paid that close of attention.
One more small question for everyone. I know that it doesn't make a big difference but what does every run with in their minor glyph slots? I think that Glyph of Battle and Glyph of Bloodrage are pretty standard and ok for 2 of the slots. For the third, what do you put in there? Right now, I have glyph of charge in there (mainly for when I respec Arms) but have been thinking about putting in Enduring Victory. Any thoughts on this minor decision?
Sorry, I can be more clear. I've never seen cleave hit more than one part of Kologarn. I've looked through my logs, and logs of another dps warrior in my guild, and it only hits one part of him. I looked through all the logs from WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay on Kologarn on that page. Several warrior didn't use cleave, several did. The ones that did never hit more than one part of Kologarn for each cleave. So all the evidence I've seen suggests it does not work. Until someone can actually show me that it works I don't think it does.
I'd be happy if it does. And if it does, what is the trick? Because it is not easy to do.
Glyph of Cleave is mighty for phase 4 Mimiron, hits all 3 pieces of "V07-TR-ON".
I may respec for Mimiron to give this a try, along with replace glyph of Execute with Cleave. I'll miss Heroic Fury, I'll have to drop it to go 3/3 Imp Cleave.
I used cleave a lot more than usual last night, and like posted earlier, it's easy to find yourself low on rage if you spam it too often. On trash, not a big deal. On Thorim's arena, not so much fun.
Cleave is really a no-brainer if you have at least 2 things to hit; it's cheaper than HS+slam even if you would get a bloodsurge proc and doesn't take a gcd. As for glyphing it I don't know, I'm still reluctant to relinquish execute. The cost of cleave does require some adjustment - glyphed and talented HS you're looking at about 7 rage cost on average, cleave is 20.
I ran with enduring victory minor glyph while leveling since I was a skinner at the time. From personal experience 20 seconds standard is a pretty big window, increasing it by 5 is just good for what I was doing - to skin stuff. I don't think it's a good raiding glyph ever, I like the charge range even as fury far more.
I pulled up a WWS from our guild's 25 man Kolo attempt last night. I was not able to get in for this portion of the run but there was another Fury warrior in the raid. Looking at his damage out breakdown, he had a total of 58 cleaves throughout the fight. However, when looking at the warrior class summary, a total of 96 cleave hits are shown. The only other warrior in the fight was the MT and did not use cleave at all. So, of the 58 cleaves used, it looked like 38 of them hit 2 targets. So, the extra target could have been an arm or body or it could have been one of the rubble adds that spawns. I then looked at his damage breakdown by target and he only had 15 hits against the rubble adds for the duration of the fight. I'm guessing the vast majority of these were from whirlwind's because of its decent sized range. Regardless, even if every single hit against the rubble was from cleave, that would leave at least 23 cleave hits that hit an arm/body.
This is not a high percentage obviously but I'm guessing it is extremely dependent on positioning. For our runs, we have the melee stand looking at Kolo's belt, and slightly off to the right to stay away from the adds when they spawn and avoid their AoE. Perhaps if you are standing perfectly in the middle with your nose on his belt buckle, you can hit 2 or even all 3. Or, I could be wrong about this and you have to be standing facing Kolo but off to one side or the other to hit an arm. I'm not sure but will definitely look into this more.
I understood a while ago that Crit overwrites Hit in a certain way.
The way it was explained to me was that, when we're going to generate an attack, the game mechanics makes it so that it first decides if the attack will crit or not, and since crits can't miss, it was logically induced that higher crit would also result in less miss.
Sorry, I can be more clear. I've never seen cleave hit more than one part of Kologarn. I've looked through my logs, and logs of another dps warrior in my guild, and it only hits one part of him. I looked through all the logs from WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay on Kologarn on that page. Several warrior didn't use cleave, several did. The ones that did never hit more than one part of Kologarn for each cleave. So all the evidence I've seen suggests it does not work. Until someone can actually show me that it works I don't think it does.
I'd be happy if it does. And if it does, what is the trick? Because it is not easy to do.
I'm not finding it worth using Cleave at all on Kologarn. Being as close as I can to the center of his body, targeting the right arm when it's up, and then the body when nothing else led to a breakdown of;
Right Arm (29), Kologarn (12), Left Arm (10) on one kill and
Right Arm (32), Kologarn (31), Left Arm (0) on another.
It might just be that each time my position isn't actually directly in the center or I'm not min melee range that's throwing it off, but as soon as I stopped using Cleave and instead Heroic again my DPS shot up by quite a bit.
I have been raiding now with a basic fury spec of 17/54 now for 3-4 months and have been getting a consistent 1.8k-2k dps from Naxx, OS, and VOA. I have seen arms warriors pulling 2.5k and other fury warriors pulling 2.25k consistently. I have looked at the fury spec's the others were using and it seemed eroneous to me. My basic rotation has been BT-WW-Slam (on proc)-HS (>45 rage). I recently changed to BT-Cleave-WW-Slam (on proc)-HS (>45 rage) and reached 2.25k dps. I have read about people being able to get 3k+ dps out of a fury spec. I just want some tips on spec and rotation please. Just check out my armory and let me know what you think.
I understood a while ago that Crit overwrites Hit in a certain way.
The way it was explained to me was that, when we're going to generate an attack, the game mechanics makes it so that it first decides if the attack will crit or not, and since crits can't miss, it was logically induced that higher crit would also result in less miss.
Can anyone confirm this?
Well, if you are hitcapped, increasing crit will of course reduce the ratio of hits, but I guess that's too obvious to point out
But if you are talking about reducing misses when you talk about hit, no, crits don't reduce the rate of misses. The game decides only once for the outcome of an autoattack, and miss has the highest priority of all things. You can't reduce the rate of misses by anything except increasing your hit rating.
06/21/09, 9:14 AM
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