Vosk

I am fairly surprised at the lack of warriors with imp. demoralizing shout. We sacrifice the least to get it, and we sacrifice the least to maintain it. I disagree with Emeraude's dismissal of imp. demo shouts worth, as well. Algalon in particular requires a talented -ap debuff, and has a strict enough dps requirement that the various trade-offs shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Some of the lesser fights, like freya and yogg saron phase 3, benefit from a quickly applied aoe demoralize. General V is another good example. Conserving healer mana and warlock mana, without a real dps loss, is pretty nice.

Imp. Cleave, on the other hand, is only really useful on trash, freya, and thorim arena. Certainly nice to have if you're a second string dps warrior, but not worth losing imp. demoralizing shout for.

From a raid leading perspective, a warrior who does not provide talented buffs and/or debuffs is a waste of a spot. Stacking rogues or feral druids is going to get you more bang for your buck in every situation.

[13:49] <manly> buu: RIGHT NOW, ALL THE DATA WE HAVE IS 7.3% MULTIPLIER
[13:49] <manly> FUCK

 

Emeraude

I wasn't arguing that improved demo wasn't useful(I even linked research showing it was!), I was just arguing that it's use diminished pretty significantly from BC, where you had recklessness buff/debuff on a boss giving it more AP and then demo bring it back down a bit, and tanks survived. Untalented demo is more powerful then talented demo was in BC for this reason alone. Our tanks don't generally die unless it's one of those gimmicky fights where you need to burn cooldown after cooldown to survive, so there hasn't been a reason to spec it.

If you're in an ultra min/maxing guild you're gonna have it(Imp Demo) regardless, if you didn't have it to begin with, and you had execute/imp zerker rage, PH, anger management, then drop one of those for Imp Cleave/Glyph of Cleave was the point of my post.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

 

Vosk

Ah, I misconstrued your point then. I agree that imp. cleave and glyph of cleave are far better than the other options assuming someone else is supplying the improved AP debuff.

My point was that, even in a regular guild instead of an ultra min/max guild, you should be picking up imp. demo shout instead of DPS talents. Yes, it's less important now than it was in TBC, but it's still quite valuable. A large number of ulduar bosses do considerable quantities of physical damage, and any reduction to that is worthwhile, particularly compared to the meh benefits of a warriors other talent options.

[13:49] <manly> buu: RIGHT NOW, ALL THE DATA WE HAVE IS 7.3% MULTIPLIER
[13:49] <manly> FUCK

 

Liar

I hope I am not misunderstanding you two, but Curse of Recklessness not being used doesn't make Imp Demo any less important in Wrath than it was in TBC. True, in TBC 5/5 Imp Demo was only useful because you had to cancel out the Recklessness AP buff but in Wrath bosses got enough base AP that you still need 5/5 Imp Demo to reduce their AP to 0 - even though we don't use CoR anymore.

Anyways, this is a moot point for 3.2 anyway for anyone that runs with a Ret Paladin.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Liar

Simply put, spreadsheet DPS will usually always be higher barring some gimmicks because of two simple reasons: You are no machine. The spreadsheet doesn't make mistakes, nor is it affected by bad RNG because it calculates average (OTOH, it undervalues Death Wish DPS for that reason; I doubt it can tell that you just popped DW during hero with a haste pot and such).

The sheet is good as a guideline and to observe trends (like Str VS ArP) but in general it will never be 100% accurate.

PS: You adjusted your race and lag properly in the sheet, ye?

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Liar

I forgot to mention (and editing it is kinda useless since you already replied and won't check the post again :P) but I noticed that your Slam! hits were somewhat low. Now I am not as experienced as others here with playing Fury since it's my offspec but you only used around 40% of your Slam! procs. That seems somewhat low. Make sure you have a proper addon that shows procs (I use SCT with a custom event). Point stands though, generally you will always be a bit behind spreadsheet DPS on non-gimmick fights, barring good RNG in your favor.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

stompingbull

hmm,
I am using event advisor and I am pretty certain at least on boss fights I am hitting slam whenver it is up. I in fact prioritize it...and yes missing 40% of slam procs would be pretty bad. Is there a better addon for it?

 

Tennberg

I use a mod called EventAlert which allows me to display an icon in the center of my screen and play a sound (a Yarrr!, in my case) every time I get a BS proc. I used to try watching my buff list back when it was 100% on a BT crit, but that got old very, very quickly.

It's very lightweight, and will also show other Warr procs as well (e.g., Sword and Board for prot).

I also prioritize BS procs, even if BT and/or WW are up. Missing 1, maybe 2, over a 5-7 min fight probably isn't a big deal, but missing 40% would be quite detrimental to one's DPS.

 

saha

Well set up "Powerauras" are also viable option for your issue.

 

Heavygear

I'm still a fan of BT > Slam, just my preference. I'm trying to make sure I'm choosing correctly on this? It doesn't mean I see a lot left unused, but if BT is up, it's getting priority over Slam. (Btw, Powerauras is great for seeing it's up and how many seconds remain.)
Out of curiousity I plugged in some numbers from some recent raids. Granted, some of these fights do indeed have gimmicks. No DPS #'s listed, I just compared the average BT versus the average Slam.

BT dmg over Slam

1 - Hodir - 129.47 %

2 - Auriaya - 130.81 %

3 - Kologarn - 112.80 %

4 - XT-002 - 108.07 %

5 - Mimiron - 137.46 %

6 - Hodir - 153.06 %

7 - Auriaya - 103.81 %

8 - Kologarn - 101.32 %

9 - XT-002 - 137.52 %

10 - Hodir - 101.06 %

11 - Auriaya - 124.28 %

12 - Kologarn - 135.27 %

13 - XT-002 - 97.87 %

avg - 120.98 %

* disclaimer: I'm no Zen master of combat logs nor my rotation, I'm just sharing my quick research.

 

Gruntle

Whether you should prioritize BT over Slam or not depends on your weapon dps/speed and AP.
You can easily derive the limiting AP when BT hits harder than Slam:
AP > (<weapondps>*<weaponspeed>+250)/(0.5-<weaponspeed>/14)

For [Betrayer of Humanity] (the weapon you have equipped) this AP limit is 3920.

Then again it's not really that simple since using a Slam instead of BT rarely means that the Bloodthirst is not used at all, rather it prolongs the cycle by one gcd. This means that if you run a risk of not being able to use the Slam proc at all you should prioritize it (probably even above WW, but it's not the easiest thing to estimate). Maybe landsouls sheet can work that out, I cannot really use the sheet (since I don't have MS excel).

So all in all, prioritize BT/WW if you feel secure that you will have time to use the Slam proc later. If you have less than 1.5 sec left on the Slam proc, use that instead.

Disclaimer: Haven't raided with my warrior in wotlk yet, so if I made any silly mistakes feel free to point and laugh at me.

 

Drezzok

Okay, I will admit up front that I'm not a number cruncher and don't understand most of what I've been reading. What I do know is that I'm a struggling fury warrior looking to increase his dps.

I hope that I am posting in the correct area, if not I apologize and please point me in the right direction.

So, my gear isn't bad (adding DMC Greatness when the faire comes out).
Unbuffed
Attack: 4417
Hit: 403
Crit: 30.13%
Exp: 32/27

I only seem to be pumping out low 3ks in dps, somtimes closer to 4k if the fight is stationary. I know I can be doing more dps, but I'm not sure how. I know my hit is too high and my crit is too low, but not sure on how to correct that. I keep reading varying info on what the Hit and Expertise soft caps are, so I'm not really sure what they are and where I need to be. Is it my gemming, is it my gear, is it my spec, is it my glyphs?

My current rotation is:

BT - WW - Slam (when instant) - HS/Cleave when full on rage

Is there something else that should be thrown in the rotation, is there some reset timer trick? I seem to be waiting awhile for BT to come up again.

I do still have some of my pre-ulduar gear, so if I need to drop back to it I can.

Thanks in advance.

 

Shha

Ok let me laugh at you! JK. Anyway you aren't exactly correct atm. The WW/BT follow strike 1:2 ratio cycle now. Whichever skill you delay it delays both WW/BT for the rest of the fight. In short prioritizing BS proc over anything "costs us" the same. Additionally the chance of losing slam proc to the duration of buff are slim to none - you lose slams when they overlap.

Assuming we talk about complete 1 GCD overlap (and its easy to change it to 1/3 and 2/3 of gcd). The cost is always the same - 1.5/8.0 = 3/16 of WW and 1.5/4.0 = 3/8 of BT. NOT prioritizing has following cost

Prioritizing the BT in rotation followed by free GCD = 20% chance on BT and possibly 20% from heroic strike (assuming 3.0 swing we can average it at 10%). In short ~28% of Slam. Thats usually not worth it.

Prioritizing the BT in rotation thats followed by WW = 20% chance on BT, and 36% chance on WW 20% chance on 1 heroic and possibly 5% from another. 62% of Slam lost - probably a dps loss.

Prioritizing the WW - 48% of slam lost.

In short its only worth to prioritize the BS proc if both BT and WW would come off cd - since the lost is the same in every case if you do it, but possible loss if you DONT do it is higher.

 

Gruntle

I think I understand what you mean. Thanks for clearing it up.

If you arrange it so that you never lose more than 1/3 of a gcd I do think that prioritizing slams should work out, but haven't got the time to really look at it right now.

 

Hisdon

Hey guys, I'm applying for a guild and, as a fury warrior, one of the recruiters has requested I gem ArP instead of STR. I find this slightly odd as a fury warrior, considering none of my superior geared peers seem to be doing this. I'm fully aware that if I was arms, I'd be a fool to not gem ArP, but as a fury warrior I'm pretty skeptical of it having the same stat weight.

I've researched that around 30% ArP on gear is around where ArP's item weight overpowers STR, I've only 25% in the first place. According to Landsoul's spreadsheet, I'm still weighted at STR being the highest stat, followed by ArP, but when I hit 30% ArP on my gear is this gonna change? -Should- I be gemming ArP as a fury warrior, period? I was always under the impression that because of Improved Berzerker Stance we were to always gem STR.

 

Croaker

Refer them to the spreadsheet and tell them to try it out themselves by importing your armory profile - you lose about 10 DPS re-gemming your Str to ArP. There are some break-points based on how much Str and ArP you have that I'm not sure off the top of my head, but the spreadsheet shows them pretty clearly. You're not very far off the 100% ArP cap with your Grim Toll proc, so too much more ArP on your gear could put you over the threshold which is a relatively significant DPS loss for the ~20% of the time your Grim Toll proc is active.

 

GTO89

I'm finally back in top 5 dps as arms. (25 uld progression) I always had the belief after a certain amount of gear, fury would once again be better, at what point?. I have poured over this forum and seen this asked a few times but never answered. I understand certain bosses favor certain stances. I am dual-specced protection for utility, so I guess I'm wondering overall dps. Thanks for ne help.

 

Kiyone

To answer in short: it depends on your gear.

If you are an arms warrior and pick up gear for that (less expertise, more hit for example) it will of course take longer for you to reach that break even point, while if you are arms and collecting gear specifically for fury you'll be running at below max potential but you'll reach that point sooner.

I play fury/prot since i was at a gear level where arms and fury were very close at start of Ulduar. But from what i've found its more about boss mechanics than gear. If you're worrying about the difference between the two specs, spec both and switch, if you're an OT, just pick one you like and stick with it. For some fights its the right choice, for some its the wrong. For me for example the only fight i really hate being fury is the general, but i can reclaim some glory on thorim and a couple of other fights with ads or multiple targets.

 

Bluecore

I just thought I would contribute my general observations on the issues of rotation and fury gear itemization as I geared through Ulduar. Currently the only items I sport ilvl less than 226 are Mimiron's Repeater, Grim Toll and DMC: Greatness.

To address the "at what point: Fury v. Arms" questions, I found that I did not see a significant dps difference between myself and the Arms warrior in my guild until I got both my 4 set bonus AND a 232 offhand weapon. In my opinion, it was because my crit was EXTREMELY low, and I found I could do very little about this because of the way the gear in Ulduar is itemized; I feel there is an extreme lack of crit, hence why Fury warriors value Mjollnir Runestone over every other trinket. However, the AP upgrades were too large to not equip the new items I was getting, even if I was terribly unitemized (I was rolling with 40/40 Expertise at one point). In my opinion the eqiup: crit increase on this Trinket is just as important if not more important than the ArP proc. because of how you have to itemize. When I put on my 4 set (shoulders was the last piece I got), I was able to put on Legplates of Double Strikes, and then this past week I received a Rune Edge; those 4 items made my crit jump nearly 3.5% (27.15>30.97). It was at that point that my DPS started to consistently pull away from our Arms Warrior. It increased my target dummy DPS by about 300 on average (sometimes between 500-600DPS more than my highest Dummy numbers). Prior to that, our DPS was essentially the same (myself and the arms warrior), although he would come out ahead by a few hundred DPS more often than not.


EDIT: All of this being said, Arms will STILL come out on top on certain fights, as will Fury STILL come out on top on certain fights. However, it is very true that Fury scales a lot better with gear and the point of my post is that I definitely believe it is the better spec in terms of DPS, given the correct gear.

In addition, the 4 set bonus completely changed my rotation. In almost every single significant encounter I've done since receiving my 4 set, my BT SMASHES all of my other forms of damage, yes, even white damage. I am using my rotation as BT>WW>slam procs, always keeping BT and WW on cooldown, even if there is a Slam! In fights where AOE is necessary,that rotation changes to WW>BT>Slam! Beforehand, I was using WW>BT>Slam!, prioritizing Slam! over BT (but not WW) because of the slam overlap argument that I am sure we are all familiar with.

My Stats are 4994 AP, 30.97% crit, and about 30% ArP from gear. I am unaware of my Haste rating off the top of my head.

All of that being said, I have a question of my own. This has been irritating me since the patch came out:

Ignis is Immune to some of my Yellow damage, and I cannot tell what it is. Does anyone know!?!? My hunch is that it is Deep Wounds, but I honestly have no idea...

 

[sean.awesome]

Check your recount and combat logs. If there are any of your main attacks missing form your recount or the log says immune to anything you have your answer.

 

Speeder

I'll bet my 2 euro that immune message comes from charge/intecrept stun.

peace MK

 

Excession

It would appear to be caused by people in the slag pot being immune to Rampage. Here's the relevant lines from a WWS log:

0:02'18.344 XXX is afflicted by Slag Pot.
0:02'18.360 Excession Rampage failed. XXX was immune.

 

catch22atplay

I don't think you can say for example, at 6k dps fury beats arms. I think it's more about what gear you have. You may have better arms gear than fury gear. Fury will need 2 decent weapons to beat arms. Where as arms only needs 1 decent weapon. We loose way to much crit gearing up in Ulduar at first. We have to make up for this loss of crit. With the TG penalty we have to make up for that as well. Once we get the T-8 4 piece bonus and 2 decent weapons and maximize ArP we can work on crit. At this 4th stage of working on crit is where i feel fury starts pulling away from arms. I don't even bother to spec arms for 10 mans any more. I think i'm at the point where fury even beats arms in 10's, although it's real close. 25's fury is well ahead. I feel arms only has an advantage on the general.

Not this this is exact or a very accurate representation. But on wowmeteronline looking at just warriors it looks like fury has >80% of the top scores vs arms. On 4 bosses arms didn't even make the top 20 list. Personally in 25's as fury in my raid i've been #1 on 5 different bosses (kills) i believe. Also over 9k dps on XT-002, although only 3rd. Rogues are at 10k dps. To compare i don't feel i'd have ever achieved this as arms. But i also specifically geared for fury. If i geared for ams it's possible i may have achieved the same results. But i'm better at fury than arms. So i'm doubtful i could have done this.

I'd say use Landsoul's spreadsheet. Both arms and fury are real close to each other. You may have to start off as arms for a few weeks or more in Ulduar. If you want to stay arms then gear for it. If you prefer fury then gear for fury. But make a decision as to which you prefer as the gear is different. Once you feel you have sufficient gear then make the change to fury if that's the plan. The spreadsheet should be helpful in telling you when to make this switch. How well you play arms or fury may also effect when you make this switch as it did for me.

 

MasterKazoom

since no one has bothered to answer this, I'll do the honors (also, this is the wrong thread - read the stickies first!)

First off, your hit + expertise are way too high. Expertise dodge cap is around 26, hitcap is at 8%, 7% with a dreanai. Hit and expertise are your worst stats after those caps!

Gearwise, use the spreadsheet to tell you what to collect - your gemming looks especially weird - at a certain point, you only gem ArP, before that STR - if you have a really good gem bonus (+8 STR for instance), you might want to go for it, but as far as I can tell, your gem sockets are randomly chosen. Try to get easy socket bonuses (i.e. you have two blue gems because of your meta), ignore the rest and gem for STR / ArP (I would tell you which one to use, but my armory doesn't give your value, and you didn't write it down. Again, use landsoul's spreadsheet for SEP values)

your rotation is okay - make sure to use HS whenever you have excess rage (that is, you can use the next instant skill and still HS), not just when you have 100 rage. Also, remember to stack your buffs - look at how long a fight is, and if you can only use Death Wish / Recklessness once, use it at the same time blood lust / heroism is used.

Also, your offhand isn't max enchanted - berserking all the way. Lastly, I would advise you to change your profession - blacksmithing is okay, but mining is not much of a dps increase. Currently, jewelcrafter would be best, but other professions such as leatherworking, enchanting or even tailoring would give a good dps boost.

 

Marnacleez

I recently switched from Arms spec to Fury and I am just looking for some feedback concerning whether my gear meets the requirements or not. I have been using Landsoul's spreadsheet and according to that my Fury DPS will outperform my Arms DPS (whether I can outperform myself remains to be seen; tonight will be my first raid as Fury). I haven't been Fury in quite sometime but I have been aching to go back to it and now seemed as good a time as any. Because of our guild's raid setup, none of the debuffs I provided as Arms will be missed, so I am not worried about my contribution to the raid; however, I do not at the moment have 5/5 Demoralizing Shout, though I plan on switching to include it in my spec should my main tank request it of me.

For the sake of brevity, I have been following the spreadsheet fairly closely and, once I reached the Hit/Expertise cap, my SEP for Armor Penetration still outweighs Strength by quite a bit so I've tried to gem accordingly. I've been looking forward to switching back to Fury for a while now and I know it will outperform Arms on certain fights and may lag behind on others; it seems consistency as a Warrior is somewhat harder to maintain in Ulduar. I am just wondering whether my spec, gear, glyphs, etc. are all what they should be for Fury; I'm apprehensive because of the Arms "comfort zone" I've been in for quite sometime, and any constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.