Reaching the cap means that you cant reduce the boss armor anymore so stacking more Arp is just wasting stats.
That is, in principle, true, but not the answer to Hipnotic's question. Reaching the soft cap only reduces ArP's value by 20% (the approximate uptime of the ArP-trinkets). Therefore, ArP's SEP-value could still surpass that of Strength, if your stats are high enough (interdependency of stats). Using the phoney-stats section of the sheet shows that at around +800 Strength, ArP passes the 1 SEP-treshold again. 800 Strength is probably not a realistic value to achieve before the next addon, but given the increases in item levels with T9, a possible T10 iLevel-297 Set might give you sufficient upgrades to your overall stats to have ArP pass the treshold again.
What's the best piece of T8 to leave out? Shoulders for [Shoulderplates of the Eternal] or legs for [Plated Leggings of Ruination]? And I'm also having trouble getting expertise without a Worldcarver and am forced to socket almost everything expertise. Bad idea?
Leave out the legs. They are abysmal in your T8, unless you need them to expertise cap you. Even then I'd say go with the other legs and socket for expertise til you reach the cap.
Yeah, without a doubt leave out [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Legplates]. The two shoulder pieces are practically identical before factoring in the set bonus. The tier shoulders have 5 more hit and a red socket, the Auriaya shoulders have 6 more crit and a blue socket.
Not to mention that [Plated Leggings of Ruination] have one more iLvl of itemization (its a pity some of it goes to haste though), as well as three sockets and a great socket bonus. If you have to socket for the expertise, do it, there's nothing wrong with that.
Last edited by Vitalstatistix : 07/15/09 at 2:38 PM.
About the flurry bug, i may be simplifying this too much but surely the fact that Synced weapon hits stay synced is proof enough that a last charge of Flurry is benefiting both weapons? If not then you would lose sync, right?
Nice macros btw Saizul, i'll be having a play with them for sure.
@rejdakon: By +800 str do you mean your str is 800 higher than your ArP rating? I'm confused by the terminology.
No, just assuming +800 Strength in addition to currently known BiS 3.2 gear, meaning that this will not reasonably be achieved before the next addon. Just be aware that the soft cap is just that, a soft cap. ArP is still useful after that, in many cases even your second best stat.
Hi there, was just wondering if anyone could go into more detail about what happens with two weapons the same speed.
i was using betrayer in Mh and Stormedge in OH, but have got worlcarver now and will dw that with betrayer, but both weps are 3.4 speed.
i saw the macro;s posted before about using startattack and heroic Throw to off sync wepaons?? was just wondering how this worked exactly and whether the two same spped weps will make no difference to my dps at all. cheers
I've gotten an idea in my head about trying out a fury spec with taste for blood and i wanted to check here if anyone did any numbers on it. The idea came to my mind when i started to look at my numbers after getting 4p of T8 and seeing WW drop in importance. So far i've done no math, but in general it looks like this
Gains:
15% arp
Rend damage
OP damage
More flurry uptime due to OP crits
(5% less famage taken)
Losses:
3% crit
WW damage
(4-6% overall from 2h spec or a randomnes in OP procs, havent decided)
When i look at parses and compare my % of WW damage with an arms warrs % of rend and OP they are very simmilar and this is what sparked the idea. Anyone care to encourage my testion/warn me of some terible mistake?
Overpower damage is very low for fury because its 45% lower then arms - 10% Wrecking Crew, 5% axe spec (crit), 10% titan grip penalty, 20% unrelenting assault. A bit compensated by higher AP but still.. especially if you dropsome 2h spec. Actually scratch that - read about IBS below.
Rend is same - -20% compared to arms (I assume you will use rend glyph instead of WW).
Your loses are
3% crit
WW damage
4-6% damage 20% Strength since you lose imp zerker stance.
10% more threat.
In short - no. Only "unorthodox" build for dps atm, MIGHT be prot dps - depending how much they buff devastate finally.
The weapons I currently am using are Ironsoul(Bezerking) in Main Hand, and Armegeddon(+85ap) in Offhand. I am currently trying to get a Betrayer of Humanity, my one question is the speeds would be off, atleast I thought so. it would then be Betrayer with the 910 top damage and 3.4 speed. while Iron soul is 892 top damage and 3.5 speed. how would I equip tho? would it still be Betrayer/Ironsoul? or would i be reversed.
Shha, yes i realised that later at work, but then i thought about it a bit more and the 20% str loss is in no way comparable to an actual loss of say 20% ap. The reason is that a lot of those 20% go towards making plate "just as good as leather" and only a small fraction of it actually makes it better. This is why a lot of the leather out there is still comparable to many plate items. This would probably be compensated by the really low rage consumption and figher flurry uptime
The breaking point i guess is the lower damage. Considering 100% crit for ease of calculus.
(0,9x2,2+0,48)/(1,1x2,25x1,2+0,48) = 0,71, so the loss is aproximately 29% OP damage
Now, with the numbers i saw of 6% rend damage and 14% OP damage (which should give another contribution of ~3% from increased DW damage we would get the new damage from Tfb in fury as 6+17*0,71 = ~18%, which is 2 higher than my WW damage of 16%.
Now, i was a bit better geared so i did some more damage than him, but extrapolating this and assuming the fractions dont change to much as we consider him doing the same damage as me it could very well be a damage increase by 2%.
With my current SEP the stance bonuses are close to equal with arp coming out slightly on top.
This leads to:
Loss of 20% str, which can be partially countered by the use if leather gear with better itemization.
4-6 % damage loss
vs
a possible damage increase of maybe 1-2% from changing WW to rend+OP, not considering the changes above.
higher flurry uptime (should be really close to 100%)
lower rage cost rotation leading to more HS
doesn't look like it does it?
meh if it weren't for the damn 30% reduction of OP damage.
EDIT : looking at Landsouls spreadsheet the contribution of WW seems to be going down even further and as low as 13% while reand+op actually gain in importance to as high as 6% rend damage and 16% OP (and almost 1/4 of that as DW damage on top of that). This would then place rend+OP as giving a 6,5% increase of damage over WW, making it possible for this spec to at least match the current spec.
The weapons I currently am using are Ironsoul(Bezerking) in Main Hand, and Armegeddon(+85ap) in Offhand. I am currently trying to get a Betrayer of Humanity, my one question is the speeds would be off, atleast I thought so. it would then be Betrayer with the 910 top damage and 3.4 speed. while Iron soul is 892 top damage and 3.5 speed. how would I equip tho? would it still be Betrayer/Ironsoul? or would i be reversed.
Also If you could take a look at my armory and suggest anything, I would appreciate it, I top the meters as is right now but any improvements I'll gladly take.
Bigger DPS weapon always in the main hand because you'll lose white dps (more dps reduced by equipping weapon in the offhand). At least with similar speed weapons, not sure about 1,4 vs 3,8 speed though.
Has anyone checked to see what the delta between a 1h axe spec fury build and a TG build is now, with coliseum loot ?
I know it was a ways behind TG in Naxx/Ulduar gear, but I remember a post (which I can't seem to find) theorising that a 1h weapon spec would catch up eventually when the ilvl of weapons got high enough, and with a huge leap to ilvl 258 I'm wondering whether the tipping point has now been reached?
I dont think we are even close if it ever happens anyway.
Honestly TG isnt such a big dmg loss - its 4% if you count 2h spec. One 2h weapon though provide enormous stat increase - something usually overlooked. Its a safe bet to say 2h has MORE stats then 2x1h in most cases. So lets see for example with dual justicebringers, you gain 94 ArP 198 STR 94 crit = ~375 str. Thats more then 10% dmg increase. I think thats something that was overlooked before in the math - how huge benefit a 2nd "statstick" makes. Its not even in weapon dps, not in deep wound damage (that too). But the "statstick" effect alone makes a TG a 6% boost to dmg.
Now to take axe spec you also need to ditch unending fury. Which while its a very underwhelming talent for a 5 point at end of tree (it loses with EVERY other main dps talent in fury tree point for point except for precision if you are hit capped before it - im not counting unbridled wrath and such though) - its stilla substantial boost. Worth around 4% damage.
So ignoring the lower dps on weapons, ignoring the faster weapon speed resulting in lower WW/deep wounds (although you can argue you squeeze a bit more hs), we talk about 10% damage loss resulting from switching off TG/Unending Fury. Axe spec cannot cover it.
Now i purposedly ignored those parts - what i DID took into account are things that scale POSITIVELY with ilvl. So they alone guarantee that TG will never fall behind axe spec+ 1h fury.
Since Wrath has come out, I've been doing my best to maximize my performance, but I've fallen a bit behind on current theorycrafting, and am hoping the experts here can help set me back on track. I've a couple questions, and have also included both a current WWS link, as well as an armory profile, in case I've made any glaring errors folks might notice. Any help greatly appreciated, it bothers me to think I may not be doing as well as I could be.
My main question is with regards to Armor Penetration. I've read that it's now extremely important, however even when I regem the spreadsheet seems to always indicate it as a dps loss when compared to gemming strength instead. What am I doing wrong here?
Secondly has to do with rotations. My general playstyle is to prioritize, which means WW before BT, BT before instant Slam, and heroic strike whenever I have enough rage not to mess up that system. Would I be better off trying to master a concrete rotation, rather than simply prioritizing attacks?
Lastly. I've been reading some comments in this thread which have led me to wonder about the best use of Execute currently. Should I be spamming it once it becomes available, ignoring it, or somewhere in between?
Thanks muchly for the help, below are links to my latest WWS and armory profile.
I'm only going to touch on the things that I think I have a handle on; that is just a measure to prevent misinformation, which is counter-intuitive to the purpose of these forums. Regarding Armor Penetration, the spreadsheet won't lie. If it's the best choice to gem your gear with, then it will have a higher SEP value than Strength. From what I've seen, whether ArP is better to gem or not (regardless of being Arms or Fury) is directly related to your individual gear and subsequent stats. Considering you use a Grim Toll, it's doubtful that you should have to gem ArP at all, and even if you do it will probably be minimal: the goal is to reach the 100% cap between gear/gems/trinket proc, and anything more will be excessive and a waste. When you plug your gear into the spreadsheet, run the SEP macro; play around with your gems as dictated by your SEP values and the estimated DPS.
As far as maximizing your DPS goes, there are some clear upgrades you can shoot for that will help in that respect. Ulduar weapons go without saying, though I'm sure you're already working on that. Swapping your Bladebearer Signet for a Sif's Promise will be a boost, considering you're over the Hit cap by a fair margin (due mainly to the Grim Toll). Keep the Dreadnaught legs but try to get the T8/8.5 shoulders when you can. The hit won't be that valuable to you but it's definitely worth the 4-piece bonus. Replace your Attack Power gems with Strength equivalents. You might consider dropping a point out of UW or Imp. Berserker Rage to pick up Anger Management. You could also swap your Execute glyph for Cleave, which some players find valuable, though it obviously won't help on single-target DPS.
From what I understand, spamming Execute is a loss in DPS. After the patch it will be a worthwhile rage dump when under 20%, since it will only use a maximum of 30 rage and will be a nice option when BS/WW are on CD. As of right now, sticking with your usual rotation all the way down will be better.
It's a minor quibble but where are people getting the % for Grim Toll? For Fury and no arp modifier from talents, 612 rating comes out to 49.69% when I do the math. Am I missing something?
This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.
It's currently at 49.69%. Can be verified by adding a new cell and doing =612/AL61 which equals 49.69%.
But also keep in mind the ArP values or helpful values Landsoul added in cells E60 thru E63 you can't get exactly 100%. It'll actually be 99.949%. If it was raised 1 more ArP it would be 100.031%. In which 0.031% is wasted. Perhaps the first value is what makes you think the math is off as it's short 0.051 of 100%. Hm hope that made sense.
Or if you mean when people say grim toll is 50% they're just averaging approximately. It's close enough for that purpose. It's just not precise.
Last edited by catch22atplay : 07/20/09 at 6:10 AM.
Pendragon's questions and Marnacleez's answers brought up more questions for me. My guild is still struggling with Ulduar, so I'm in full 7.5 with Grim Toll (but no BOH). I had read previously that you should continue to gem for STR until you could hit 30% ArP when you did gem. Switching out my STR gems with ArP gems in the spreadsheet always drops my DPS - though I can still only hit 24% (outside of Grim Toll). But they just mentioned that if you have GT you don't need to gem for ArP - or is that directly related to Pendragon's 8.5 gear?
I had been aiming for a ArP value of 30-49% w/ Grim Toll - and until I hit that, it seemed best to stick with STR gems. Is that still the best choice?
Pendragon's questions and Marnacleez's answers brought up more questions for me. My guild is still struggling with Ulduar, so I'm in full 7.5 with Grim Toll (but no BOH). I had read previously that you should continue to gem for STR until you could hit 30% ArP when you did gem. Switching out my STR gems with ArP gems in the spreadsheet always drops my DPS - though I can still only hit 24% (outside of Grim Toll). But they just mentioned that if you have GT you don't need to gem for ArP - or is that directly related to Pendragon's 8.5 gear?
I had been aiming for a ArP value of 30-49% w/ Grim Toll - and until I hit that, it seemed best to stick with STR gems. Is that still the best choice?
From my experience with fiddling w/ the spreadsheet, Fury's SEP on ArP doesn't surpass str until about 45% on gear, and then it plummits again at like 47%. Personally I don't see a reason to ever bother gemming for ArP as Fury unless you somehow fall in between that gap.
From my experience with fiddling w/ the spreadsheet, Fury's SEP on ArP doesn't surpass str until about 45% on gear, and then it plummits again at like 47%. Personally I don't see a reason to ever bother gemming for ArP as Fury unless you somehow fall in between that gap.
If you're one of the unlucky ones that never got their hands on a GT or MR, yet have a ton of arp on their gear, gemming for it will still yield better return than Str. With the amount of passive arp on my gear, arp SEP for me is around 1.25 for Arms and 1.07 for Fury (counting in swapping some gear for more expertise). This also makes switching between specs to optimize performance on per fight basis easier when both specs share the same optimal stat.
Pendragon's questions and Marnacleez's answers brought up more questions for me. My guild is still struggling with Ulduar, so I'm in full 7.5 with Grim Toll (but no BOH). I had read previously that you should continue to gem for STR until you could hit 30% ArP when you did gem. Switching out my STR gems with ArP gems in the spreadsheet always drops my DPS - though I can still only hit 24% (outside of Grim Toll). But they just mentioned that if you have GT you don't need to gem for ArP - or is that directly related to Pendragon's 8.5 gear?
I had been aiming for a ArP value of 30-49% w/ Grim Toll - and until I hit that, it seemed best to stick with STR gems. Is that still the best choice?
What a lot of people seem to forget frequently is that ArP's value is not only dependant on how much ArP you already have. It is also dependant on most other stats. The better your gear is in general, the more you will get out of ArP due to interdependant scaling. This makes it impossible to give a general guideline as to how much ArP you will need in order for it to surpass Strength in value. However, I don't thinkt that it is currently possible to have good enough gear to pass the ArP>STR treshold without being around 40% ArP already, unless you deliberatly avoid ArP on gear. That means: If your gear is on a level where you don't reach 40% ArP without gemming for it, your gear probably won't be good enough to make ArP>Str. But as with many gearing decisions, this really depends on the individual circumstances.
To cut a long answer short: Use the spread sheet! It is there for a reason which is to help putting together an optimal gear set considering the exact gear and buff situation you're in. General guidelines can never substitute this, especially when stat values are as close as ArP and STR currently are below the soft cap.
Hisdon if it plummets at 47% it's because your strength dropped to low as you swapped from strength gems to ArP gems. For me at 37.4% ArP surpasses Strength. Because i have way more AP and dps, etc.
It's almost pointless to gem for ArP until you get a high enough amount of Str/AP and or also a high enough base ArP from gear. AP will derive your damage. ArP is a percentage of your damage. The higher the STr/AP the lower it drops where ArP becomes useful.
You can't really just say it's AP either. It's actually your dps total that ArP would be a percentage of. Hit, crit, AP, your weapon, etc, etc. Anything in which increases your dps has a direct correlation to ArP being more useful.
This is why the spreadsheet is so useful. It basically tells us exactly when to gem for what at a given gear level. Or which piece of gear to go for.
Last edited by catch22atplay : 07/21/09 at 6:31 AM.
07/15/09, 12:00 PM
Similar Threads
