I keep seeing references throughout this thread to a swing timer, I'm recently switching to fury from arms and i'm wondering if my fury dps is bad because I don't understand the mechanics of when to use a move versus when white attacks hit. Is there a certain addon that keeps these things in check? It seems rather incredible to me that you can keep track of the time when a melee swing will hit and when it is appropriate to use a special move
For the only attack you need a swing timer nowadays is Heroic Throw. Before 3.2 it was useful for Execute too.
You need a 232 mainhand to really start going fury.
Also removing buffs is a bad idea if trying to figure out which spec to raid as since well you'll have buffs when raiding.
Fury also scales much better with raid buffs which is why it overtakes arms even though arms has much better solo self buffed dps.
I really disagree with this, using the spreadsheet to compare fury with arms isnt a good thing, you dont need a 232 weapon for fury to pull ahead, i have regularly raided with both specs since dual spec and i found that yes, arms was better initially, but with the buffs to fury spec (bloodthirst) and especially with the recent changes to armoured to the teeth fury really started to pull ahead. I think people are overestimating the gear level needed where fury breaks even/passes arms, and while im sure that includes having a decent ammount of ulduar gear, i really dont think you can just set a rule of "must have ilvl 232 weapon".
The average fury warrior now must be touching on 5000 attackpower unbuffed, with a fair chunk of armor pen to go along with it, and even with under-par weapons, the numbers you can put out are surprising, and in my experience, slightly better than arms.
I really disagree with this, using the spreadsheet to compare fury with arms isnt a good thing, you dont need a 232 weapon for fury to pull ahead, i have regularly raided with both specs since dual spec and i found that yes, arms was better initially, but with the buffs to fury spec (bloodthirst) and especially with the recent changes to armoured to the teeth fury really started to pull ahead. I think people are overestimating the gear level needed where fury breaks even/passes arms, and while im sure that includes having a decent ammount of ulduar gear, i really dont think you can just set a rule of "must have ilvl 232 weapon".
The average fury warrior now must be touching on 5000 attackpower unbuffed, with a fair chunk of armor pen to go along with it, and even with under-par weapons, the numbers you can put out are surprising, and in my experience, slightly better than arms.
You are overestimating the "average" fury warrior. I'd say I have pretty good gear, not great but probably a top 20 warrior on my server (pre 3.2 I'm sure some guys picked up that crazy axe this week).
I sit at 50% arp and just a hair below 5k AP unbuffed with all caps met. This is is with mostly 226 gear and 232 weapons. So to say that the average warrior basically falls into this category is false in my opinion.
Yes you can probably go fury possibly earlier than 232 but you wont really see the benefit. Chances are you're helping the raid much much more (until you gear up a bit) with your DPS boosting raid talents (trauma and the 4% dmg buff) and letting the ferals not mangle than you would be by switching from arms to fury and gaining 100 personal dps.
That is my personal view on it and we can of course agree to disagree.
I can't really make up my mind with Chaotic Skyflare Diamond or Relentless Earthsiege Diamond for my meta gem. I know that Chaotic Skyflare Diamond is better compare to Relentless Earthsiege Diamond but does the only 1 blue gem require for Relentless Earthsiege Diamond makes it better than the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond.
Anyone have some numbers to show and explain it to me.
I can't really make up my mind with Chaotic Skyflare Diamond or Relentless Earthsiege Diamond for my meta gem. I know that Chaotic Skyflare Diamond is better compare to Relentless Earthsiege Diamond but does the only 1 blue gem require for Relentless Earthsiege Diamond makes it better than the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond.
Anyone have some numbers to show and explain it to me.
Thanks in advance.
Nightmare Tear plus Relentless Earthsiege Diamond is the way to go. The tear alone activates the meta gem, you gain 10 Str needing 1 less blue gem compared to Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. In addition the agility on tear and relentless earthsiege diamond provide more crit than chaotic skyflare diamond does.
Nightmare Tear plus Relentless Earthsiege Diamond is the way to go. The tear alone activates the meta gem, you gain 10 Str needing 1 less blue gem compared to Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. In addition the agility on tear and relentless earthsiege diamond provide more crit than chaotic skyflare diamond does.
Wow, I tried it on the old spreadsheet and I'm surprised it is true. Gaining 10 strength from using red gem instead of a purple one makes up for both using a bit worse meta gem and losing 1 +6 crit socket bonus. It is only 2 dps for me but it works
Nightmare Tear plus Relentless Earthsiege Diamond is the way to go. The tear alone activates the meta gem, you gain 10 Str needing 1 less blue gem compared to Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. In addition the agility on tear and relentless earthsiege diamond provide more crit than chaotic skyflare diamond does.
Not quite true for all cases. Difference between the both metas is ~4 crit rating.
You will probably use the nightmare tear for getting 8str gem bonus on t9 helms.
If you use legging of ruination or Titanium Razorplate for example with t9 helm combo you will end with difference 12 str/arp for Relentless vs 14crti rating for Chaotic , which favors Chaotic in a lot of cases.
To summarize:
If you use t9 helm + legs/chest with red,yellow,blue socket with 8 str socket bonus - if your (crit SEP)/max((arp SEP), str) > 0.857 use chaotic, else use Relentless.
If you use t9 helm + legs/chest with red,red,blue socket with 8 str socket bonus (no known ones so far) - use Chaotic. There is practically no way ArP SEP to be 2 x crit SEP.
Thus as long as there are no 10 Str socket bonuses activated through a blue gem the tear/relentless combo should come out on top.
And if you want to be 100% accurate you could calculate the agi->armor->AP gain as well, plus 10% more agi from kings in raid situations etc, but it was really only quick napkin math for me =)
plus Relentless Earthsiege Diamond is the way to go. The tear alone activates the meta gem, you gain 10 Str needing 1 less blue gem compared to Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. In addition the agility on tear and relentless earthsiege diamond provide more crit than chaotic skyflare diamond does.
It depends on the socket bonus you get with the 2nd blue socket.
The Enchanted Tear is better than a 10SEP/STA gem (arp/exp/str) when 6 + 6y >= 10 (so when agi SEP is better than 0.6667).
The SEP value of crit crit rating determines what is the minimum SEP of the bonus you should get to even out the 2 meta: 14-4y = x + 6z (10-4y = x + 6z with blue gems)
x = socket bonus SEP
y = crit SEP
z = agi SEP
Since 1 agi = 45.90598679/62.5 = 0.73449578864 crit rating, we have z = 0.73449578864y and we can rewrite:
y = (14 - x)/8.40697473184
For a 6SEP bonus you need a crit SEP of 0.9516+ to make Chaotic better than Relentless but of course it is dependant on a 2nd item requiring a blue gem (or a single item requiring 2 blue gems).
Assuming exp and arp caps and with increasing strength in later tiers, the SEP value of crit can get high enough to make 2-socket bonuses quite useful again. If you can't afford epic gems (or you have multiple 3-socket items requiring blue gems) Chaotic is still a good choice.
Last edited by hellord : 08/22/09 at 7:38 PM.
Reason: readability
I think you forgot BoK when converting Agi into Critrating (?..)
1 agi is always 0.016 crit and bok only increases the amount of agility itself. SEP values generally account for buffs aswell, but the relation between agi->crit% and crit rating->crit% is static.
EDIT: I misunderstood your post, I didn't get you were referring to the "4y" part.
The relation between agi and critRating depends on BoK when you work with SEP from the sheet, because in agility there is BoK included but in critrating not.
in the first part of your calc you include BoK correct but in the second part not
look here:
14-4y = x + 6z
[....]
x = socket bonus SEP
y = crit SEP
z = agi SEP
the "4y" is the difference (not exactly...) between 21agi and 21critrating.
4 = 21agi*1.1(BoK) /62.5*45.9 - 21critR
without BoK the 4 would be a 5.5
now look at the 2nd part.
you want to translate the 6agi from the 6stat-gem into 6critrating. but there you forgot BoK
Since 1 agi = 45.90598679/62.5 = 0.73449578864 crit rating, we have z = 0.73449578864y and we can rewrite:
y = (14 - x)/8.40697473184
1 agi is always 0.016 crit and bok only increases the amount of agility itself. SEP values generally account for buffs aswell, but the relation between agi->crit% and crit rating->crit% is static.
Nevertheless the only thing you should care about is how much 1 agi ON GEAR gives you.
Smart-assing does not really help discussions
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
Always looking for ways to up my DPS and on browsing my parses over the last couple weeks I've realized I'm only managing to capitalize on 40-50% of my Slam! procs. I tend to prioritize Slam last after BT, WW and (30+ rage) Execute so it's understandable that I'm missing some, but over half? It seems like with the shortening of the BT cooldown I'm always colliding with cooldowns and GCDs.
Is anyone else having similar results, or do I just need to pick up my game here?
As far as colliding global cooldowns go, BT>WW>Slam.
I don't have a "set" rotation as Warriors commonly have to be used by feel, Rotationg your dps rotations as needed. I know a lot of ppl will use WW first when starting an enconter, than BT, but generall their only option after that is HS or hopefully a Slam proc. I like to use BT first, that way after whirlwind and letting a couple white hits do their job, BT cooldown is up, than probably at that point either a Slam Proc or HS is in oreder, followed by WW....so on and so forth. Without the T7 set bonus of increased dmg by 10% on Slam, I find that it hinders my DPS more than it helps. Based on the ammount of rage that is used, in comparison all other attacks are far better.
So, I haven't heard much discussion on this. Are people going to go with the T9 2 piece over the T8 4 piece?
I'm wondering about this myself. I'm considering my next triumph badge purchase, and one of the obvious considerations of an upgrade to a 2nd tier 9 piece is how does the 2 piece compare to the 4 piece tier 8?
Is gaining 2% on every attack in zerk stance + the decent stats upgrade due to ilvl > +10% crit on BT? Or should I save my emblems and pick up perhaps the thrown dps (or even the tank version for my 2ndary spec).
I'm thinking the t9 chest is a likely candidate as a 2nd upgrade piece, followed by the rest of the set pieces once I've picked up enough of the one off items to make reaching hit/exp/arp caps less painful. What are others' thoughts on this?
BT = 25% of ur attacks, 10% additional crit.
White DMG = 30%
All other attacks = 45%, 2% additional crit.
I would think personally that the 2% overall is better than 10% on one attack, especially since you are probably sitting at around 45% crit unbuffed in higher end gear.
When having the 4 set bonus T9, obviously with the extra stats, it is much more powerful. Personally I would probably just swith to the new gear as I get it, not worrying about the set bonuses for the time being, as it will be very minimal difference to start.
I was thinking about getting the throwing weapon as well, typically just for the item lvl, as the hard mode Leviathan 10 man is still a realy solid throwing weapon in comparison. I will probably wait until I pick up more Tier pieces, as badges anre needed as well, making it a little more difficult or time consuming to generate a solid set by just handing in tokens.
As for the Helm off badges, what is everyone looking at? I believe the badge one if you have the other 4 set would be ideal? Seems to be a bigger upgrade than the remaining BiS's over othe rtier pieces. What are your thoguhts on that?
As for the Helm off badges, what is everyone looking at? I believe the badge one if you have the other 4 set would be ideal? Seems to be a bigger upgrade than the remaining BiS's over othe rtier pieces. What are your thoguhts on that?
I would personally go for the T9 Shoulders/Legs to get the 2pc bonus. These 2 items have the same itemization as the T7.5 items, which were the best pieces of the set too. I'd pick up the chest and helm to get the 4pc.
Now the question about if the 2pc T9 is better than the 4pc T8 would translate into :
is 10 % increase crit on 25 % of your damage better than 2 % increase crit on 100 % of your damage ? In theory it should only be equivalent to an 8 % crit increase on BT but you'd get slightly more crits from HS as well, which would also return slightly more rage from the glyph, which would translate into a small dps increase.
I'd say a 2pc T9 would probably only be better if the stat increase from the higher iLvl is high, and that would probably not be before 2x iLvl 245 T9. We will have a definite answer when we can spreadsheet it or do more precise math though.
Considering the set bonuses aren't anything spectacular or even remotely game changing, I'd focus more on the benefit from the stats than the change in set bonus.
To all the fail warriors out there there's hope in site right now im specked fury/Prot and Prot being my off spec which i never use.
I 've been playing as a fury warrior ever seance i hit level 80 which was around December last year not knowing a thing about doing dps warriors for the fact i played as a prot warrior well since level 60. but with the help of a few guildys when i hit 80 i was given mos of the item level 200 BS gear which allowed me to get in to the lower raids and now i sit in the top 5 in my guild with mainly 10 and 25 ulduar gear to see my gear) im not the best geared dps warrior in my server by far but even with all there nice 25 hard mode ulduar gear i still manage to out dps most of them ( i cant say all because i haven't faced them all in a dps race.) , but in a normal 25 ulduar group im pulling between 5.5 and 6 k dps and in 25 OS i've hit the 7k dps and this isn't as a burst this is over all dps for the in tire raid lock out.
The How.
firs off im specked pretty much the same as most fury warriors except for a few areas for instance i decided to put 3 points into ENRAGE which gives you a 6% damage bonus, but for the most part its the same.
The rotation i use is an endless spam of WW, bloodthirst, cleave,and execute which i have macroed becouse im lazy but most warrior for get about cleave and they don't realize its one of there best moves especially when glyphed in to.
For procs i have i have twin berserkings on my ironsoles that give me 400Ap, i have Darkmoon Card: Greatness the strength version, also grim toll, and then my warrior procs deep wounds, deathwish, recklessness which i specked into for the 3 min cool down, rampage, flurry, and blood surge. If im just toying around in a dungeon ill use what ever buff food i have besides dragon finflay and ill use more then like ley a guru elixir, but in raids i use dragon finflay for my food buff and flask of endless rage for my drink buff. If you want to have better dps try getting into groups with shammys , pallys, and Dks they all have buffs that are shareable and will boost you dps by about 500 or so.
It's only a very very mild dps increase, and only on certain fights. I'd argue that if you weren't going for utility (improved shouts & imp demo) you could probably put 2 points into it and see some small benefit (those 2 points from weapon mastery just don't go anywhere good anymore).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that enrage will not proc on AoE, so you have to take a direct hit for it to benefit you. Those hits might be common on some fights (say Mimiron and the scrap bots that are always beating on me) and that's where you might expect to see the most benefit...assuming you can detect any benefit at all through the RNG between weeks. But on the majority of fights you won't see any benefit at all (think General, Hodir, XT. Ignis, etc).
It's only a very very mild dps increase, and only on certain fights. I'd argue that if you weren't going for utility (improved shouts & imp demo) you could probably put 2 points into it and see some small benefit (those 2 points from weapon mastery just don't go anywhere good anymore).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that enrage will not proc on AoE, so you have to take a direct hit for it to benefit you. Those hits might be common on some fights (say Mimiron and the scrap bots that are always beating on me) and that's where you might expect to see the most benefit...assuming you can detect any benefit at all through the RNG between weeks. But on the majority of fights you won't see any benefit at all (think General, Hodir, XT. Ignis, etc).
I'll quote and update myself since some people doesn't seem to have seen reports about Enrage. This is what I got from Ulduar and early Coliseum bosses. Now Im not specced into it anymore so I dont have Coliseum data further than Faction Champions.
Ulduar
10 times on trash, 1:31, 1% uptime
1 time at Razorscale, 0:12, 3% uptime. Dark Rune Watcher's Chain Lightning
3 times at Ignis, 0:34, 13% uptime. Flame Jets
0 times at XT-002 Light Spark's direct hits on Hard mode proc Enrage
1 time at Iron Assembly Uninterrupted Chain Lightning
0 times at Kologarn Rubble Rumble can proc it
4 times at Auriaya, 0:48, 16% uptime. Sonic Screech
1 time at Hodir, 0:12, 3% uptime. Freeze (Frost nova thingie)
6 times at Thorim, 0:50, 15% uptime. An add hitting me, Chain Lightning, Frost Nova, Frostbolt Volley. (Much better in Hard Mode)
10 times at Freya, 1:20, 19% uptime. Any adds hit, Sunbeam, Detonating Lasher, Ground Tremor, Nature Bombs.
4 times at Mimiron, 0:17, 3% uptime. Junk Bot, Hand Pulse. Moving to be shot with Hand Pulse can guarantee quite a decent uptime but is dangerous obviously, aside of possible dps loss from moving
0 times at Vezax No surprise. Searing Flame does proc it though
I can't count it on Yogg-Saron because WWS doesnt split tries but it procs in P1 from Dark Volleys and Shadow Novas when guardians die. Also if you're MCed and someone hit you. Sara's psychosis and Crusher tentacle if you survive it.
Coliseum
2 times at Gormok the Impaler, 0:24. Staggering Stomp and Snobold Vassal.
1 time from Acidmaw and Dreadscale. Sweep.
4 times at Icehowl, 0:48. Whirl and Massive Crash.
0 times at Lord Jaraxxus
Faction Champions I already didn't have Enrage here but I guess there's many chances for Enrage to proc by hits from the NPCs.
I honestly don't believe speccing into cleave and using it instead of heroic strike is worth it, your 5.5k-6k dps? how much of that is aoe?, get a dps report for patchwork and then we can see how much you actually pull, also, 3 into enrage, looking at the charts that origence posted, those 3 points could go into something more usefull.
08/18/09, 6:19 AM
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