Thymoleon

Guys please be precise and double check what you write, these aren't the official forums.
It's evident that the Chaotic meta gem is worth only if your socket bonus is 6 STR, and that the best choices for blue gems are Nightmare Tear and Enchanted Tear, unless your ArP SEP is high (1.05 or more). In this case the Puissant Dreadstone is better than the Enchanted Tear.

SEP calculation for Chaotic to Rentless transition: -21*0.95+14+16*0.75-bonus<0 -> bonus>5.3.

If your ArP SEP>1 (e.g. 1.05), it becomes more convenient to socket Rentless + Nightmare Tear + Fractured.
-21*0.95-6+15*0.75+20*1.05-bonus<0 -> bonus>6.3.

Anyway all of this is a very slight dps gain, inferior to -10ms latency or 5 FPS.

 

foopeemoa

It requires burning a GCD to use it, however, so either you are delaying your abilities to get that rage, or else you have to wait for a free GCD period to use it. If you want a more realistic rage/minute comparison of the two talents, check a wws parse of as many fights as you can, and average out how much rage you actually got back from IBR to get a realistic rage/minute figure. I used to think that IBR was better, but I looked through my own wws parses and the actual rage/min ended up being slightly below that of Anger Management, so I respecced and haven't missed IBR since. Maybe I just suck at timing IBR, but I found that to actually use IBR more often required throwing away Bloodsurge procs or delaying my rotation, neither of which was worth 20 rage.

 

Kurg

I recently respec'd into IBR, dropping AM in the process. At first it was somewhat cumbersome to work into the rotation due to the loss of a GCD. But popping it right before a HS/cleave, during WW/BT cd's , has worked out nicely. I think the on-demand rage, in addition to starting a pull with full rage, is worth it.

 

Lifthrasil

And what are you doing if you're stuck at 204 Expertise rating for example? Gemming 20 Exp is obviously a poor solution. Gemming 10 Exp/10 hit into a yellow socket seems also kinda weak compared to 10 str/10 crit. Isn't in this case a 10 exp/15 stamina with chaotic meta the best option even if you're just getting 6 crit and not 6 str from socket? Ok, i'm a bit to lazy to calculate it without landsouls sheet (in fact, i can't since SEP calculation is hard :P) , but what i mean is, that it's getting interesting when it comes down to constraints.

In addition, i have to admit, that i have some problems to understand your chaotic to rentless formula.
You are starting with (21 agi*SEP(agi)+10 beststat*SEP(beststat) has to be greater than 21 crit*SEP(crit)+socketbonus*SEP(socketbonusstat))? I don't see the step where that 14 and 16*0,75 come in.

 

Shrakz

At 204 expertise, you should be at 25 expertise, according to the spreadsheet (old version) the SEP of expertise is around 0.35 when you're at 25. It jumps back up to around 1.1 if you go down to 24. So the best bet would probably be to stick with the agi meta, stay at 25 expertise and keep gemming 10 str/10 crit into yellow sockets and not think about a 10 exp / 10 hit.

The only reason I see why a 10exp/10hit would be great is if you actually need both the hit and the expertise to be capped and that the gemming would help you cap both stats ... Correct me if I'm wrong of course !

 

Lifthrasil

Well then take the step from 24 to 25 exp.

 

Chebyshev

So the expertise "cap" is 24?

Is the spreadsheet still valid? I read somewhere that it was being updated currently and shouldn't be relied upon.

Thanks for all the information, I appreciate it.

 

Harpo

The cap is 26. Once you reach 25 points of expertise, the value of expertise slightly drops, as the actual cap lies between 25 and 26, so some of the expertise budget is wasted upon getting to the 26th point. However, expertise only increases by 1/4th of one point of expertise, so you still need 26 to be capped on dodges.

For me personally, I eat expertise food every fight and I get to 25 expertise, because gemming to the 26th point of expertise is a net DPS loss. On a side note, wtb expertise items to drop :\

As for the IBR versus AM arguement, if you are struggling with GCD management, you could also drop a point or two into improved bloodrage, which is a decent GCD-free rage on demand ability. However, if you get in the habbit of putting up berserker rage during fights where there is no fear, but raid damage is coming, it will also increase rage generated.

 

rayzorium

I would say it's more than a little misleading to claim that the expertise cap is between 25 and 26. Dodges have been observed at 213 expertise (shown in-game as 25 expertise), but never at 214 (26 in-game). Up until 214, expertise's SEP should remain fairly constant.

 

Airwave2k2

@Harpo
I don't see any advantage for eating expertise food. It is absolute regardless of, which food you eat and gem for,..
Eating 40 Str food and geming 40 Arp or 40 Exp will also be the same as you do it vice versa. The only question you have to answer is, what is the best to farm or do you like fishing?

Playing under cap will be a gain in damage for the most situations the mob doesn't avoid any of your styles, but to fail to counter a mob like Vezaxx isn't funny (i.e. for the raid). So if you have the chance to get 214 expertise by using a 10exp/15stam gem i will do so and use the krit meta + nightmare tear.

 

Macar

I am sitting at 210 Expertise rating, and Landsoul's (albeit outdated) spreadsheet has my Expertise SEP at 0,5715. So Expertise value does begin to drop as you approach the cap.

http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/1/...11159sMIJL.png

 

Akai_Kage

Remember, however, you still need to be expertise capped (I mean above 26) if interrupt mechanics are crucial in a encounter (Vezax) or highly recommended (Champions, Freya, Assembly of Iron, etc..).
Also getting a dodge when sundering (assuming no warrior tank) is also making a waste of rDPS.
I won't suggest going below 26 unless you have more warriors in raid and you are not in duty of interrupts.

Btw... I can assume but I couldn't try it yet Shattering Throw can be dodged?

 

D4vE

Casting mobs can't dodge or parry.

 

tbalpha

do you have a pally for might and a warrior tank for c shout?? if you do then i would put them in unbridled.. if you dont have both of them, then i would put it into booming voice... all depends on your raid make up really.

 

rayzorium

So says the spreadsheet - but in reality, it doesn't actually drop at all. Why would it? Use your brain, man! Think things over if what you get from the sheet is at odds with extensive testing and common knowledge. Maybe you missed something, or maybe the sheet itself did. In this case, it was a little of both. You'll see what I mean if you look at how the sheet calculates the displayed SEP values.

 

• Kalroth

Huh, what? If the spreadsheet says that 1 expertise rating is 0.5715 SEP, then that is the actual value. It's a measurement of DPS and once you have 210 expertise rating, 1 point of strength is worth more than 1 point of expertise. Or put another way, reducing 0.04% dodge to zero dodge is worth less than gaining 1 point of strength.

 

rayzorium

You're pulling my chain, right? >_>

Unless I missed a version of Landsoul's spreadsheet where it was fixed, the SEP it displays for expertise is inaccurate when you're within 0.25% of the cap. What it does is add a whole expertise value worth of rating (i.e. 0.25% dodge and 8.1975 rating), calculates the SEP of that, even if the value is reduced from capping, and divides by 8.1975 (may have less significant figures; I can't tell exactly because I don't have excel with me). If you're at exactly 25 expertise or below, the value given by the SEP calculator is fine. The closer you get to 26, though, the lower the SEP of expertise will appear to be. So if you have 210 rating, your expertise SEP should be more than twice what is displayed. In reality, only the 214th point should be significantly reduced in value.

Edit: Fixed a number, and added some clarification.

 

Lifthrasil

It can drop if the actual dodge percentage isn't exactly 6,5% but somewhere between 6,25 and 6,5%.

 

rayzorium

Not really. It'll stay as high as it's ever been until the exact point at which it caps. The expertise rating point that makes it cap, and only that point, would have a reduced value. It would be zero thereafter.

Regardless, dodge percentage is at least 6.49588% as shown by testing I previously linked, so that couldn't be it anyway.

 

catch22atplay

Exp is incorrect as you get close to cap. The spreadsheet is in error. Always has been. Looking at the hit table as you get close to capping expertise it'll show dodge 0.17%, 0.10%, 0.07% etc assuming hit capped. That is impossible as it should only be in increments of 0.25%. To get the real exp SEP cap expertise at 214. Now use phony stats and put expertise at -9. This then shows SEP for expertise 1.7334 for me. Let me try this another way. Using my gear i get the following.

214 expertise rating/26 expertise=6666dps

-9 expertise rating/25 expertise=6640dps

+9 strength and -9 expertise rating/25 expertise=6656dps

That equates to expertise rating being 1.75 SEP per point

So from that example expertise is clearly superior to str. Would be nice if the spreadsheet actually showed this to avoid confusion as we get close to cap.

 

Lifthrasil

@rayzorium:

You're right, i didn't take the way landsoul calculates exp SEP into account.
And even if you calculate SEP in those 8.1975-steps the reduced effect of the 26. expertise (.249x reduced dodge instead of .25%) could never explain such a gap in SEP.

But the whole discussion about expertise is not what i wanted to start with that 204 example. I wanted to say, that the fact of being just 10 points away from the cap can affect your meta decision and thats its to simplistic to say "chaotic meta only if you get a second 6 str socketbonus".

 

Machinator

Exp is only rounded to .25% on the character display, the game does not round Exp. The spreadsheet is correct with dodge percentages <.25%.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Lifthrasil

I would love that since i'm stuck with 213 exprating on equipment, but thats the first time i hear that and honestly - i don't believe it. Can you link anything to prove that?

 

rayzorium

Except when you're within .25% dodge of the cap. Then it grows less and less accurate the higher you get because the SEP calculation still includes an old feature (which I illuminated a few posts back) meant to treat expertise as if it truncated. At 213 expertise rating, you'll end up getting an SEP value of about 0.03. Obviously it's not a super serious problem, but it's there.

This test should be proof enough for anyone.

Also, in response to your last post towards me, I hadn't actually seen your previous posts about gemming; I was initially responding to Harpo, then Macar and then Kalroth. Now that you're enlightened on the nature of expertise, though, I hope it makes it easier to recognize how the sheet's calculations don't represent expertise's true behavior near the cap. =)

 

Lifthrasil

Pff, i don't care about your sarcasm, i'm too happy with my 213 atm... :P
Thanks for that link, saves me 50k defaulthits at the dummy ^^