In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion - Page 85

Knighz · 04/10/09, 8:53 PM

Haha, yeah. Though I hope Yogg-Saron drops a badass looking mace even better than Voldrethar.

Shha · 04/10/09, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Yes. Oh and I was playing around with the possibility of Executioner again being that it's a 120 ARP proc for 15 seconds on a 1.0 ppm (at 80 guessing it went down) that it could be better in the main hand than Berserking in cases where you aren't at the ArP cap at any time with Grim Toll, and also maybe in some cases where there was a better trinket than Grim Toll and you wanted to boost your ArP. The value of Attack power went way down. It would just be badass to see an Executioner glow on Vol'drethar.

Grim Toll doesnt seem to "hold" as much value - like i said in another thread. Its not hard using already known gear to come up with 750+ passive penetration builds, and im sure it isnt end of it - considering so many items arent even known yet. Its more of an arms concern i guess (especially since fury probably will go for t8 bonus), but even for fury, i think well get to the point where going either to new Ulduar trinket (or even MoT) will be viable, since well have so much passive ArP (and while Grim Toll value does diminish eventually when you are above "soft ArP" cap, ArP even over that cap is still worth stacking - so it will happen eventually).

Machinator · 04/11/09, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

Grim Toll doesnt seem to "hold" as much value - like i said in another thread. Its not hard using already known gear to come up with 750+ passive penetration builds, and im sure it isnt end of it - considering so many items arent even known yet. Its more of an arms concern i guess (especially since fury probably will go for t8 bonus), but even for fury, i think well get to the point where going either to new Ulduar trinket (or even MoT) will be viable, since well have so much passive ArP (and while Grim Toll value does diminish eventually when you are above "soft ArP" cap, ArP even over that cap is still worth stacking - so it will happen eventually).

I disagree. It is hard to get 750+ ArP while at the same time maintaining Exp/Hit caps, which are a bigger loss than the ArP even close to 100% ArP. To do so would probably need 2 ulduar weapons, and a lot of other drops. It may not hold value like a DST but I think it holds better than most other current trinkets because it lets you bridge the gaps until you get ~75% ulduar geared.

Gorlak · 04/11/09, 7:09 PM

So, are we sure if the armor penetration with sunder and faerie fire will be;

Armor*0,75*(1-Arp%)

or

Armor*(0,75-Arp%)

?

Will we need 100% arp from gear or just 75% arp to get 0 armor?

Are there actually any tests that prove whether or not the armor penetration is calculated on the armor before or after sunder?

Shha · 04/11/09, 7:35 PM

Like i said, its "more of an arms problem" and only that there "will be a point" for fury. I agree in general , its a nice trinket for FURY to close the gap. However atm it seems that most warriors agree on "closing the gap", by going arms till they get heavily Ulduar geared, so the concern stays.

Additionally, my current set after regemming changing some items to meet new caps (0 ulduar gear), is at 570 ArP. Grab those 1 Ulduar weapon, some of badge stuff , piece of t8 or so, and i can see in one week jumping to over 700

MildCorma · 04/12/09, 5:35 PM

Like i said, its "more of an arms problem" and only that there "will be a point" for fury. I agree in general , its a nice trinket for FURY to close the gap. However atm it seems that most warriors agree on "closing the gap", by going arms till they get heavily Ulduar geared, so the concern stays.

It's a decent trinket certainly, but the passive is rubbish and with less crit coming on Ulduar gear anyway I can't see Grim Toll outlasting MoT for a proc that has a 20% uptime, even at the start of Ulduar (for Fury). I did a test on the PTR and regemmed completely for Arp and the results were quite impressive certainly, but it was far from comprehensive (only 1 test so not reliable at all).

Graul · 04/12/09, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by MildCorma

It's a decent trinket certainly, but the passive is rubbish and with less crit coming on Ulduar gear anyway I can't see Grim Toll outlasting MoT for a proc that has a 20% uptime, even at the start of Ulduar (for Fury). I did a test on the PTR and regemmed completely for Arp and the results were quite impressive certainly, but it was far from comprehensive (only 1 test so not reliable at all).

It's also still not actually giving the same ArP as what your character screen displays either. You would get almost the same results on live.

Knighz · 04/12/09, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by MildCorma

It's a decent trinket certainly, but the passive is rubbish and with less crit coming on Ulduar gear anyway I can't see Grim Toll outlasting MoT for a proc that has a 20% uptime, even at the start of Ulduar (for Fury). I did a test on the PTR and regemmed completely for Arp and the results were quite impressive certainly, but it was far from comprehensive (only 1 test so not reliable at all).

I haven't been keeping up on the latest news about the PTR and what not. But is the 25% buff for ArP live in the PTR yet? Also, is there proof that gemming for ArP in 3.1 instead of pure Strength is better? Last time I checked ArP was valued around .9 (y/n?) and Strength still at 1 (including the 25% buff to ArP of course).

Shha · 04/12/09, 9:56 PM

ArP is not buffed by 25% (its actually buffed by around 1.5%).

However the increase in value of ArP, doesnt come from the rating buff - its the semi-additive stacking with sunders/FF that does the trick. Since you need 83% ignore from ArP roughly to ignore 100% armor the value of ArP went up around 20%. (plus the 1.5%). If you are an arms warrior - without imp zerker ArP was already better by 10% then for fury, and 10% from battle stance further increases the value - making ArP best stat. For fury its more complicated. Change to IBS made ArP only around 10-15% better then before - so at 88-92% SEP with my gear. However there is more at play here:

- Weapons and Ulduar gear have lots of ArP making you reach 500ish values without gemming or super-stacking ArP.
- Increasing gains from ArP were always the case, with new model the gains are even more "expotential". That means that while at 300 the ArP might be only that 10-15% more then before, while you reach that 500ish mark it will be 20%+ more valuable, etc etc. Eventually , coupled with the fact that EVERY gem you switch to ArP, increases value of next ones, it might become so you will want to regem. It can even come to the pretty strange situation where changing ANY gem will be a net dps loss, but changing ALL of them will push the increasing ArP returns higher and make it worth it.
- Grim Toll gives insane amount of rating as proc. I mean its 612. Even if ArP is at 90% of STR - a proc giving 550 STR would most definitely be deemed amazing. And the fact that we will probably use Grim Toll now - further increases our ArP for calculations, and further increases ArP value.

BWarner · 04/14/09, 12:52 AM

Slight correction, Shha: once the error is sorted on Blizz's part, it will be buffed by a little more than 25%. We'll see how 3.1 really plays out.

Warbishop · 04/14/09, 3:17 AM

I was wondering if anyone has done some comparisons for an execute spam at 19% obviously, while dual wielding one handers with the execute glyph and imp execute vs executing with a 10% reduction of damage from using a pair of two handers with Titan's Grip.

"fixed name signage"

With Two-Handed Spec that is still a reduction of 4% of the execute vs 1handers, though that math isn't precise by any means. I remember a time when fast weapons + lotsa armor pen = lotsa execute damage. I thought perhaps with the ArP changes and the difference in DMG due to the TG nerf, it might start making them look better. Perhaps not.

landsoul · 04/14/09, 3:58 AM

2-Handed Spec.

Also, don't sign your own posts with your name.

Amailya · 04/14/09, 6:20 AM

how bad is the TG nerf really? I havent been on the PTR at all and 10% really sounds like a lot to me, but then again im still in the process of gearing as it is and maybe im just thinking the worst. I was just starting to be near the top of the raid and now this

Cortic · 04/14/09, 7:48 AM

Like myself, alot of DPS warriors out there have been forced to spec Fury in WoTLK due to the greater raid and personal DPS benefits over Arms. I also know that after reading page upon page this afternoon on these forums that alot of posters are coming out and asking alot of the same questions scattered across 3 or 4 threads (including other warrior-specific websites). Unlike the regular theorycrafters on this website (Grauul, Lando, Shha etc) I simply do not have time anymore to get onto the PTR's as much as i would like to to test out how builds and talents are shaping up. I applaud the efforts of these warriors who are in my opinion at the top of their game. The information contained within this website and threads has helped me be the best I can as a player and as a respectable DPS in my guild. This post may get flamed or deleted however i felt it necessary to compile the questions i have noticed into one easy-to-reply-to post. So here goes nothing:

1) With the 10% Fury nerf to TG, assuming current BiS gear going into Ulduar, will TG Fury still be the "spec" of choice for DPS warriors or should we be aiming for a 1hder Fury Spec? Furthermore if a Warrior consistently does say 5K DPS will the 10% nerf equate 4500 DPS or more/less due to rage considerations?

2) Deep fury offers the benefits of Rampage (5% crit). With the nerf to TG, assuming you are the only member of the raid to bring this buff (no other Fury warrior OR Feral Druid) is the 5% benefit raid wide worth the DPS loss of 10% rather than speccing Arms for maximum personal DPS?

3) ArP is getting an "apparent" 25% buff (however according to TCers this is only around 1.5%). ArP is useless after 100% however with 5x Sunders ArP on gear is still required to make up roughly 80% of the cap. Is ArP now a more important stat under 100% than Strength point for point (i.e. re-gemming)?

4) Most warriors who are serious raiders will be using [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]. The second most optimal option (assuming hit capped) has been [Mirror of Truth]. With the changes to ArP does [Grim Toll] now become the best 2nd trinket until ArP capped?

5) With the Weapon Mastery location change some Fury warrior will now be under Expertise cap. It is important to be Expertise capped however should Fury Warriors consider using trinkets such as [Mark of Norgannon] until Expertise capped or stay with the typical MoT/GT and wait to become expertise capped?

6) At the end of the day, until 75% Ulduar geared should DPS warriors switch to Arms (providing the 5% crit buff is supplied elsewhere).

I think that covers everything. Sorry about the long post jsut figured if we compiled it all together will solve everyones questions.

Machinator · 04/14/09, 9:13 AM

1. Don't know how Fury/arms will compare but the TG nerf isn't the only change. ArP and Imp. Berserker Stance are buffs that pretty much even it out.
2. See 1.
3. Yes, unless you have Grim Toll Soft cap.
4. Not so simple, depends how close to cap you are.
5. Personally I find it easier to gem for expertise if not capped. Its easier not to go over cap and upgrade gear.
6. I don't see much reason why, but again I'm not up to date on what arms can do 3.1.