Ah yes, forgot to take those into account. So heroic strike scales a bit faster than the average MH swing. Rend should still scale faster though, correct? It doesn't seem like the scaling of glance, DW, and slam procs is going to undo the 3-fold increase in damage from the napkin math that was done a few posts ago (~8700 rend vs ~2700 heroic strike). Now the question is at what gear levels does rend become too good to pass up?

On that same thought, if BT outdoes rend due to DW, and slam hits for less than BT, rend should become > slam before it becomes > BT (DW taken into account). This would imply that the priorities would first change to BT/WW> rend > slam at some gear level (hopefully within Wrath ilevel, and not i500 which Blizzard isn't balancing towards in this expansion). With glyph of rending, would it take much for the average slam + DW damage to become less than rend? Additionally, the slam proc isn't always wasted, as you can sacrifice 3 to 3.5 of the seconds to stance dance to rend and still have some time to be in zerker and use your slam proc.

Bare with me, here's some math:

Say on average, 31% of your melee swings (i.e., heroic strikes), sync up with the gap in the BT/WW rotation so that you receive a chance to proc slam as early as possible in the free GCD period. Assume you have 100% heroic strike uptime (not hard at TotGC gear level), and 20% slam procs off of those melee swings. That will leave enough GCD to battle, rend, berserker, and slam before the BT/WW rotation resumes. So the real benefit from rending is

average damage from rend + .31 * (.20 * (average slam damage + DW from slam)

vs

(average heroic strike + DW HS) - (average MH swing + DW MH) + .20 * (average slam damage + DW slam)

If the gap in the rotation is 6.5 seconds, the time it takes to switch to battle stance is 1 second, rend's GCD is 1.5 seconds (allowing time to stance dance back), slam's GCD is 1.5 seconds (1 second with 4pcT10), and given a .5 second reaction time/latency correction, then 1+1.5+0.5+1.5/6.5 = 4.5/6.5 = 69% of the time it is impossible to use the slam proc without cutting into the BT/WW rotation. This leaves 2 seconds, or 31% chance, of having a heroic strike go off in the ideal slot in your rotation, which would itself have a 20% chance to proc slam. (This is how I came up with 31% chance)

A: average damage from rend
B: average damage from slam
C: average damage from heroic strike
D: average damage from MH
E: crit% * average DW damage

A + .31*.20*B > C - D + .20*B
A > C - D + .138*B
factoring in the deep wounds...
A > (C + E) - (D + E) + (.138* (B + E) )
So is A > C - D + .138*(B + E) true?

Taking one of my logs I get
8734 > 5975 - 3003 + .138*(6087 + .60*6282)
8734 > 4332

So, correct me if I missed something, those at similar gear levels should be prioritizing rend over slam as long as it doesn't cut into the BT/WW rotation

Note that rage generation was assumed not to be a problem

Parse used: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
This parse shows 9.4% chance to miss. Number of swings in parse = 2262 swings.
Actual swings = 2262/.906 = 2497 swings.
Average melee dmg/number of attacks = 6560915 dmg/2497 attacks = 2628 average dmg per attack.
MH dmg: 1x+.75x = 2*2628 = 5256 => x = 3003 dmg, where x is average MH dmg with misses factored in

Do you not realize that by the time you stance dance back bt will be off cd and you'd be clipping your bt hard trying to get that slam off before it expires. Which we know not to do. The timing has to be so tight on this and it will absolutely waste slam proc's if they happen. Not to mention having to sacrifice .5 seconds or so to get your rage back after switch back to zerker.

What you say is true in high lag situation. Lower ping players can use rend somewhat easier (1 sec stance gcd is lower then rend gcd). Its another limiting factor for rend usage - you need to have nearly perfect ping/fps, but a lot of players achieve that novadays.

As for Heroic scaling - glancing and impale are some factors - equally important but forgotten is that heroics dont miss - Overall Heroic adds easily a 40% to MH swing all things considered. Its still not as much as rend - but coupled with the delay on rotation it really gets the whole thing close to being a wash. Like I said its maybe 1000-2000 dmg over a course of minute at BEST - which while can seem respectable (33-66 dps is about one decent gear upgrade), is nullified but possible random (and thus not included) screwups due to missstreaks and other events you dont have full control over.

Ah oops, you're right that stance dancing only takes 1 second of GCD not 1.5 (right? now I can't even remember correctly)

Concerning the heroic strike vs MH swing benefit, the differences are encompassed by taking the average amount each hit for. In other words, the melee swing's average includes the 0 dmg misses and partial damage glances, and the heroic strike's average includes the benefit from impale. All that's left is DW, and that was added in

What log site are you using to determine your average damage? WMO and WoL do not factor misses into the stated average damage of melee attacks (it's possible, given how many different ways there are to view your DPS in WoL, there might be a page that does, but I didn't find one).

If you're averaging it yourself that's fine, but for the sake of completeness it would be nice to source your numbers.

I went ahead and showed how I got MH damage (you're right about the % miss, it was ~300 dmg difference in favor of HS) and added the parse link.

It doesn't proc off "raid damage." There are many discussions already about this contained in this thread.

I think it would be a big mistake to drop HS glyph for rend glyph. I would maybe substitute rend glyph for cleaving when you are on single target fights, and go back to cleaving for AoE fights.

I always put rend on Ony when shes taking off for the flight phase, just saying, 1 "Moar DOTs" isn't gonna bring her down much faster but I have always done so on this fight and the theory crafting above seems to indicate its worth wild to do so.

I'm sure that the HS glyph provides more damage than the benefit of rending with glyph versus rending without the glyph. Before I would run Glyph of Execute + HS + WW, now I'm suggesting Glyph of Rending + HS + WW. I suppose I should factor in the DPS loss from Glyph of Execute to be precise. For AoE fights the benefits gets diminished because of the cleave so Glyph of Cleaving + HS + WW should be used

How do you intend to model the loss of damage on autoattacks that occurs when they're hitting with 17% less strength and 3% less crit?

Why 17% less Strength?
Also taking into account the additional Arm Pen that Battle Stance gives?

It still works, especially when you start getting higer end gear (more ArP on those items = less gemming)

It is not a very big difference from Grim's Toll --> Runestone. I personally use Grim's Toll atm, simply due to the fact that my hit rating has dropped dramatically, and gem up to 100% ArP. It really only takes a couple extra gems. Yes I know I should probably gem for hit and keep Runestone, however my crit is at about 63% raid buffed (full array of buffs). I also do not have the T9 helm yet (lots of hit rating).

I'm way behind atm in gear simply due to the fact that in the last 4 weeks, the only drop we've had for plate are the boots and gloves off Anub. Really frustrating, but what can you do? I'm even still using the mace from Yogg (70 hit rating) and Rune Edge.

Personally I hate gemming for hit, but has anyone else run into this problem with hit rating? The day I actually get a few pieces, I will lose 153 hit rating, and am currently only running with 190 + 3 points. Most people going for Anub cape, range weapon and the T9 helm for hit rating?

There's a few things you can do, but for horde I found that [Grim Toll] + 245 gloves [Hellscream's Gauntlets of Triumph] (you want to use t9 gloves over helm unless you have/are expecting to get the 258 gloves off heroic anub) + [Twirling Blades] off 10 man flame leviathan = exactly 164 hit. There's also the 10 man tribute axe if you aren't swimming in FC axes and the boe neck [The Executioner's Vice] out of 25 toc. The cape is ok if you aren't doing regular insanity runs, and if all else fails you can run t9 gloves + helm and craft a [Titanium Razorplate]

Hi folks,
I hope my post is not off-topic here, but I needed advice on Fury DPS related matters,
so here it goes.

It seems I can't break the 4k DPS barrier in movement fights (where you are
supposed to move and follow the boss, or ofcus on adds, etc. not just stand still and DPS) on a single
target, and this is very surprising to me. I reach there a mere 3,700 – 3,800 DPS.
I have decent gear as you can see from my Armory and I am capped in Hit
and Expertise (with food).

The rotation I think is the usual: BT - WW, then Slam when instant and HS
on rage dump. Execute spam at 20%.
My questions are: does anybody experience the same thing? Is there anything
I can do to better the DPS? Do I just need better weapons?

I am quite surprised since in TBC (and also in early WotLK) I saw warriors topping the damage
meters, but it seems not to be the case anymore.
Thanks in advance for your advice.

I need a hand if you guys don't mind - I'm trying to convince a guildy of mine (an officer, unfortunately) that DPS Warriors should be getting the Commanding Presence talent because Unbridled Wrath is a terrible talent. He's convinced that 'DPS is his job, not raid survivability' but I think he just doesn't understand that UW is a terrible talent mathematically.

I've been compiling some arguments but it seems this is a bit of a no-brainer and not oft discussed (I did a search) for a forum post about it.

Does anyone have any input on the matter that might be helpful?

The World of Warcraft Armory

Take a look if you can. If you notice anything that I could improve upon, even slightly, please let me know.

I am currently just over ArP cap with GT proc - only a couple points. I plan on using the T9 helm, and do not currently have access to Heroic 25 gear, although I have cleared both normal modes every week since drop.

Edit: I can hold 6,200 --> 6,500 single target. How does that compare with what others are doing?

Roughly 40 extra rage per minute for 1 player versus ~560 extra health for 25 players is indeed a no-brainer. Your officer is (pardon my language) a dumbass.

Kivothe, since you are still gemming ArP to reach the soft cap, wouldn't [Hood of Lethal Intent] will be better as hit rating pieces? It worked for me as arms spec, at least.

Get Expertise capped Kivothe.

Well on AoE fights, the rage gained from UW should be higher though? If you're doing nothing but cleaving adds on Anub HC wouldn't UW be better than AM?

The time spent in battle stance is less than 2 seconds. I assumed the loss from crit/Str to ArP is negligible