Not getting off topic or anything, but this is the best place I can think to ask. I've read the posts in this thread and have been an arms warrior since I can remember. I level as arms, I PvE and PvP as Arms. I've read conflicting reports on how much Hit rating an Arms warrior needs. I've had 9% since I first hit 80 and am now getting some gear with hit on it and have been able to trade in my hit gems for crit ones. Then I read that you only need 8% hit as Arms. Which is true?
I like all the changes they are bringing for warriors in general, especially Arms. I just hope they don't take too much of the "Whack a mole" aspect out of the spec. I don't want to be thinking of a rotation in my head, it just makes me sick to be honest.
I am pretty sure this was answered earlier in the thread but you need 8% hit like every other physical class before talents and goat aura. Since arms has 0 hit talents you need 8% hit as you are horde.
I have currently 9.21% chance to hit unbuffed as arms spec, and yet somehow I still find myself missing, so I'm not sure of the hit cap. I've heard 8% since they took away the ghost miss chance from spellcasters, but I noticed missing there as well. Although that's not suprising given my current situation. Taking murderizer as an example though (the parses I've seen of his include 0 missses), 8% is the cap.
Optimal rotations and/or priority systems are what dps is about.. just mashing buttons when they come up is not the kind of thing there's likely to be a lot of hand-holding good feelings about at EJ, from what I've learned while lurking. You want whack-a-mole, you might want to try speccing for healing.
For the life of me I can't figure how some of the armsmen on these boards manage 5k+ dps. I don't think I'm the best arms warrior, but I have experience with the spec and have very high GCD utilization. Supposedly am over hit cap and when raiding eat food to put me well over soft expertise cap.. comparable stats to some of the other warriors I've armoried as well, yet I struggle to get over 3700 on favorable fights (generally even less than that. I know, shameful). I prioritize op > ms > ex > slam, mixing in hs to burn rage if I'm too high and bladestorm/loatheb's shadow when it is up, yet my damage for the faerlina fight (I generally end up slapping on a shield and taunting.. and/or die on gluth so i can't really use that.) Wow Web Stats is nothing compared to what I've seen. I can't figure out what I'm doin wrong.
EDIT OF EDIT: Nevermind about the hit, I'm just a twit that wasn't looking deep enough into my wws report.
Last edited by SubtleAmbition : 03/09/09 at 3:10 PM.
I have currently 9.21% chance to hit unbuffed as arms spec, and yet somehow I still find myself missing, so I'm not sure of the hit cap. I've heard 8% since they took away the ghost miss chance from spellcasters, but I noticed missing there as well. Although that's not suprising given my current situation. Taking murderizer as an example though (the parses I've seen of his include 0 missses), 8% is the cap.
Might be a dumb question but just to rule them out: Did you have maxed weapon skill? Did you stand in anything that reduces your hit like VoA's sand cloud? Did you mistake parries and dodges for misses (some addons just treat them as the same thing)?
Just saying because 8% is definitely the cap.
EDIT: Yeah, I checked your WWS. It adds up Parry and Dodge as "All Miss" which is why you think you missed when you didn't.
Yeah, weapon skill is maxed. I feel like a right idiot, now. only after I posted did I think "hey.. where are all the dodges and such anyway? then clicked the number and got the expanded list.
So I've been reading this forum since wrath came out and i decided to go the arms route for dps instead of fury. I've found arms' rotation to be much more engaging the then 3 button fury rotation. I don't get to DPS as much as i want since I'm my guilds MT and as such i usually end up tanking things, but here is what I've picked up about arms and i would like to make sure I'm right about all of this.
rotation:
rend > SD > OP > MS > Slam (bladestorm on CD)
gearing/gemming:
hit to 8% (264), crit to 40% unbuffed then straight str. and expertise to 26.
on my armory im currently in my DPS gear but my spec is prot so here is the dps spec i would use with glyphs. I think its the pretty standard arms spec and there isn't much room to deviate. i dont get commanding presence because a pally always has imp might and imp demo is more beneficial in my opinion. i dont have any patchwerk kill WWS where i wasnt tanking so i cant provide that at the moment. i might post post one later if i cant do a naxx where i dont end up tanking.
as far as gear choices go the priority for stats (after hit cap and 40% crit are reached)
str > crit > haste
for weapons we want slow polearms/axes for the increased DW and slam damage. cryptfiends bite > BoH > deaths bite > wraith spear is the order I think is the best. the weapon enchant i am a bit fuzzy on. is 110AP the best for the static DW damage or is beserking better?
as for 3.1 changes im still waiting on those "promised arms changes". i think the 10% armor pen isn't the end of buffs that are much needed. personally i think that if they changed the SD talent to increase the bonus damage per rage on SD procs or just made it scale with AP more then that would bring arms closer to fury. I think if they buff slam to much we will just morph into warrior version of steady shot BM hunters with one button. i think buffing OP just makes it more RNG which they have said they dont want to do.
this is just what i have come up with. if i have anything wrong any input would be helpful.
Here is my post from tonight's Naxx 25-Man WWS Loading...
As Negiva and that other person posted, My results are also preety good. My patchwerk kill would have been a lot higher, maybe even 5k DPS but the pull was a bit sketchy with our Enhancement Shammy not putting up his WF totem until someone gave him Battle Shout thinking we didnt have Imp. Might in the raid though we did and in addition Heroism was stupidly popped at 35 or 40% from some shaman which really didnt help too much either. All in all as you are gonna be able to see from this report I almost maintained 4k dps on every fight other than Anub Rhekan and overall I believe arms can be competitive for top dps spots easyly in some fights while not in others.
Lastly compared to Negiva's test with Mace which Are preety nice I shall admit, I went the standard path with Axe Spec and having almost 39% crit unbuffed. I do not gem for crit but AP and its a preety nice balance between my stats I believe. I could use some more t7 pieces for the set bonus and some more expertise together with a BoH and then I believe I could easyly brake 5k dps on Patchwerk baring not pulling hate
My 2 cents Lets keep em coming
I did an Armory check on you and it looks like you're running with 224 Hit?
You say you do a lot of DPS. With 44 crit unbuffed and 3450 AP its clearly okay to miss sometimes with stats like that.
I did a test with 240 hit and I missed less than .5% of the time.
Arms on the ptr is definately looking a lot better, and feels better too with the armor ignore in battlestance and i hope they can do some further changes that will bring this spec back inline.
However in current raids i just dont think it hits hard enough, on our patchwerk kill last week i was speced arms (mace spec) slightly over the hit cap with 291hit. Our kill was just above 3minutes and i pulled around 3970dps, using MS/HS/Execute glyphs. I really thought the spec just didnt hit hard enough, i was almost constantly full rage using heroic strike to dump it, with every global cooldown used on abilities. The raid leader actually blamed me for not getting the 3minute kill, for the fact that i was arms spec, instead of the usual fury. In fairness i was around 12th/13th place on the damage meters that fight, had i been fury it would have been a lot higher. To me atleast it just seems that the abilities werent hitting hard enough, I have played the spec a lot before as i really wasnt a fan of fury in 3.0 at level 70.
Ive seen a few people doing huge numbers with arms and i scratch my head, is it a case of perfect gear, good luck on procs, and player skill, i can see it with fury because its such a powerful spec. But then maybe my gear which is obviously biased towards fury (especially with the ammount of haste on gear) is playing a big part in the fact that arms is so behind.
Obviously the armor ignore battlestance buff is going to directly fix some of the problem with abilities just not hitting hard enough, but i cant help but hope they do something else, increase slam damage, increase the ammount of rage useable with sudden death perhaps. I guess we just have to wait and see what they have in store. The current ptr changes are definately a step in the right direction and im getting the feeling arms is falling back inline with fury slowly.
I can frequently break 5k DPS without anything more than 1 bloodlust on a good spank and tank fight, like patch/razuvious/gluth/faerlina. Our fury warrior with 2x BoH usually beats me by a decent chunk of DPS though (maybe by as much as 600, but often we are fairly close).
The point though, is that Arms is currently competitive if you're doing it right, and with the nerfs to fury and other top performing classes coming up and our Arms buff I don't see why I shouldn't be #1 dps on a lot of fights going forward. I'm excited
Obviously the armor ignore battlestance buff is going to directly fix some of the problem with abilities just not hitting hard enough, but i cant help but hope they do something else, increase slam damage, increase the ammount of rage useable with sudden death perhaps. I guess we just have to wait and see what they have in store. The current ptr changes are definately a step in the right direction and im getting the feeling arms is falling back inline with fury slowly.
Don't forget they've doubled Blood Frenzy as well, so even if Arms potential individual DPS still falls short of Fury's the added buff will make Arms a more wanted spec than it is now.
Don't forget they've doubled Blood Frenzy as well, so even if Arms potential individual DPS still falls short of Fury's the added buff will make Arms a more wanted spec than it is now.
Not exactly, it's a shared debuff with combat rogues and they are topping the meters on PTR.
Well, 10% armor penetration is roughly 2.5% damage on a boss while in pvp it varies much.
Atm PTR arp was buggy, so I hope we can test this out and understand how they think to make ratings, debuffs and buffs stack.
Here's a question
Are the various armor pen's additive or multiplicative? One of the problems with armor penetration was it was devalued the way it stacks with sunder, with everything being percentage based that may change.
Your looking at 30% in Battle stance with sunders up, 45% if you are mace spec, there are proc based trinkets from uldar that give another ~35%, with minimal gear we're getting into the range where armor pen used to have its value greatly inflated.
Ulduar trinkets' stats & procs/uses haven't been revealed yet. Only the names and the bosses they drop from have. The stats shown are copy/pasted from Naxx and are just placeholders.
Some simple test on PTR - in battlestance otherwise fully unbuffed,
doing 552 thunderclap unbuffed
580-581 with sunders or shattering throw
607 with 2*shattering throw throw (yes, it stacks) or sunders + shattering throw
So i got a 29 increase for the first 20% armor ignore, and a 26 increase for the next 20%... this is the opposite to what i expected, it seems they are multiplicative?
This is from a test I ran a couple days ago, the first number on the left is the damage BT did to the level 80 target dummy while wearing 0 armor pen gear, the other columns are my (possibly wrong) calculations. BT tooltip damage without armor was 2016. Grim refers to a grim toll proc, which according to the in game tooltip should be 49.69 armor penetration.
Keep in mind there are still a few bugs affecting armor pen rating, see (here), and possibly others as well.
The raid leader actually blamed me for not getting the 3minute kill, for the fact that i was arms spec, instead of the usual fury. In fairness i was around 12th/13th place on the damage meters that fight, had i been fury it would have been a lot higher.
Did you tell him you bring 4% extra damage to the raid? I don't know if Blood Frenzy actually affects DPS. But if it does, it's because of your Arms Awesomeness.
Did you tell him you bring 4% extra damage to the raid? I don't know if Blood Frenzy actually affects DPS. But if it does, it's because of your Arms Awesomeness.
Its 2% still.
Last on dps?? What did you do? I did 3.5k yesterday on naxx 10 without a shaman for BL
Did you tell him you bring 4% extra damage to the raid? I don't know if Blood Frenzy actually affects DPS. But if it does, it's because of your Arms Awesomeness.
Originally Posted by Jakoemanou
Its 2% still.
It's also more likely there was a Combat Rogue present so he actually brought NOTHING.
Originally Posted by Logabas
So, for those of you on the PTR, has anyone been able to test this little gem?
"Taste for Blood: Will now proc 33/66/100% of the time with a 6 second cooldown."
I'm very curious to see how much of a buff it really is.
A quick and dirty way to test would be to take a current parse of a Naxx boss and see how many Taste procs you got. Assuming no lag or human error the new PTR values allow for 10 procs/minute guaranteed. Allowing for lag/human error let's assume 9. Are you getting more or less on average than 9 Overpower procs per minute per boss fight?
Briefly on PTR, I did test the new Taste for Blood. The application looks like this if you have Glyph of Rending.
0.0 apply rend
3.0 rend tick TfB proc
6.0 rend tick
9.0 rend tick TfB proc
12.0 rend tick
15.0 rend tick TfB proc
18.0 rend tick
21.0 rend tick TfB proc
First impressions are that it feels so much more consistent and much less fluctuation on your DPS along with keeping your Deep Wounds stack rolling.
Unrelenting assault is still going to be mandatory for DPS because of GCD reduction on making Overpower 1 sec GCD.
The cooldown on the Taste for Blood proc begins when you gain the buff not when it expires or when you hit Overpower. This gives interesting burst possibility with guaranteed double Overpower crits at for example interval:
3.0 rend tick TfB gained.
8.0 Overpower TfB consumed.
9.0 rend tick TfB gained and Overpower
The cooldown on the Taste for Blood proc begins when you gain the buff not when it expires or when you hit Overpower.
That is, in fact, excellent news. I'm glad they handled it this way. But anyway after writing what I said above I tried to find some Arms WWS parses to look at Taste procs on parses. I couldn't find any Arms parses except 1 and he had like 15-20 procs for 3+ minute fights. I'd like some other parses to compare but initial impressions are this is a major improvement.
My original "in my head" math had convinced me that with the new changes, unrelenting assault was going to be useless. Glad to know now, after having written this out, my initial assumption was incorrect. So now with the TFB changes, the rotation should look something like this:
With Unrelenting Assault:
0.0 Rend
1.5 MS
3.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
4.0 Slam/Execute
5.5 Slam/Execute
6.0 Rend tick
7.0 MS
8.5 Slam/Execute
9.0 Rend tick, TFB
10.0 OP
11.0 Slam/Execute
12.0 Rend tick
12.5 MS
14.0 Slam/Execute
15.0 Rend tick, TFB
15.5 OP
16.5 Slam/Execute
18.0 Rend tick, Re-apply Rend
Totals: 6 Rend Ticks, 3 MS, 3 OP, 6 Slam/Executes
Without Unrelenting Assault:
0.0 Rend
1.5 MS
3.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
4.5 Slam/Execute
6.0 Rend tick, Slam/Execute
7.5 MS
9.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
10.5 Slam/Execute
12.0 Rend tick, Slam/Execute
13.5 MS
15.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
16.5 Slam/Execute
18.0 Rend tick, Re-apply Rend
Totals: 6 Rend ticks, 3 MS, 3 OP, 5 Slam/Execute
So, with unrelenting assault, we gain a slam or execute for every 18 seconds we're in combat. This sort of consistency should make the arms rotation MUCH easier to follow and is a very welcome change indeed! The only thing I worry about is how much of a factor latency is going to have on making the rotation perfect. Even if you miss an ability by half a second, it can vastly change the rotation. I suppose time will tell.
So now with the TFB changes, the rotation should look something like this:
With Unrelenting Assault:
0.0 Rend
1.5 MS
3.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
4.0 Slam/Execute
5.5 Slam/Execute
6.0 Rend tick
7.0 MS
8.5 Slam/Execute
9.0 Rend tick, TFB
10.0 OP
11.0 Slam/Execute
12.0 Rend tick
12.5 MS
14.0 Slam/Execute
15.0 Rend tick, TFB
15.5 OP
16.5 Slam/Execute
18.0 Rend tick, Re-apply Rend
Totals: 6 Rend Ticks, 3 MS, 3 OP, 6 Slam/Executes
Few things:
1. You should assume Glyph of Rending is used -> 21s Rend
2. Execute is better than MS with current AP levels -> instead of MS it should be Execute/MS.
So theoretical optimal rotation (assuming enough rage) would look like this (Execute/MS/Slam means priority order):
0.0 Rend
1.5 MS (actually I think Rend applying can trigger SD, but have no log proof at the moment, if I'm right it would be Execute/MS here)
3.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
4.0 Execute/Slam
5.5 Execute/Slam
6.0 Rend tick
7.0 Execute/MS
8.5 Execute/MS/Slam
9.0 Rend tick, TFB
10.0 OP
11.0 Execute/MS/Slam
12.0 Rend tick
12.5 Execute/MS/Slam
14.0 Execute/MS/Slam
15.0 Rend tick, TFB
15.5 OP
16.5 Execute/MS/Slam
18.0 Rend tick, Execute/MS/Slam
19.5 Execute/MS/Slam
21.0 Rend tick, TfB, OP, Re-apply Rend
7 Rend ticks
4 OP
1-4 MS
0-10 Execute
0-9 Slam
Now minimal and maximal damage cases (assuming Execute>MS>Slam).
1. min dmg case (no SD procs):
0.0 Rend
1.5 MS
3.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
4.0 Slam
5.5 Slam
6.0 Rend tick
7.0 MS
8.5 Slam
9.0 Rend tick, TFB
10.0 OP
11.0 Slam
12.0 Rend tick
12.5 MS
14.0 Slam
15.0 Rend tick, TFB
15.5 OP
16.5 Slam
18.0 Rend tick, MS
19.5 Slam
21.0 Rend tick, TfB, OP, Re-apply Rend
7 Rend ticks
4 OP
4 MS
0 Execute
7 Slam
chance of happening: (1-0.09)^14 = ~0.267 = 26.7%
2. Max dmg case (all possible SD procs, so actually Execute spam with OP/Rend from time to time):
0.0 Rend
1.5 MS
3.0 Rend tick, TFB, OP
4.0 Execute
5.5 Execute
6.0 Rend tick
7.0 Execute
8.5 Execute
9.0 Rend tick, TFB
10.0 OP
11.0 Execute
12.0 Rend tick
12.5 Execute
14.0 Execute
15.0 Rend tick, TFB
15.5 OP
16.5 Execute
18.0 Rend tick, Execute
19.5 Execute
21.0 Rend tick, TfB, OP, Re-apply Rend
7 Rend ticks
4 OP
1 MS
10 Execute
0 Slam
chance of happening: 0.09^11 = ~0.0000000000031381059609
That is, in fact, excellent news. I'm glad they handled it this way. But anyway after writing what I said above I tried to find some Arms WWS parses to look at Taste procs on parses. I couldn't find any Arms parses except 1 and he had like 15-20 procs for 3+ minute fights. I'd like some other parses to compare but initial impressions are this is a major improvement.
Just click onto the ones I linked earlier in the thread and you can get to all the stuff I've done with my guild if you wish to dissect more parses.
03/09/09, 1:08 PM
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