Well enough discussion about what numbers we're pulling. I'd like to take this into a bit more about how we're pulling them.
On the PTR (v9684) I've managed a solid rotation by timing slams right as my quartz timer reads .5(or higher depending on latency) on every other white or so. In between I throw in my usual:MS-OP-Execute when available. The problem I run into is when I get too many sudden death procs, I get all trigger happy and throw my timing off. It peaks great dps, but also takes awhile for that perfect synchronization of 6 sec OP vs white hits/slam to fall back into effect.
In the end, I feel either limited or there is a better rotation I've yet to find. Again, 3.2k is my peak. 2.9-3.0 sustained on average. The bad timing drops me to 2.5-2.9 depending on how far its off.
Well enough discussion about what numbers we're pulling. I'd like to take this into a bit more about how we're pulling them.
On the PTR (v9684) I've managed a solid rotation by timing slams right as my quartz timer reads .5(or higher depending on latency) on every other white or so. In between I throw in my usual:MS-OP-Execute when available. The problem I run into is when I get too many sudden death procs, I get all trigger happy and throw my timing off. It peaks great dps, but also takes awhile for that perfect synchronization of 6 sec OP vs white hits/slam to fall back into effect.
In the end, I feel either limited or there is a better rotation I've yet to find. Again, 3.2k is my peak. 2.9-3.0 sustained on average. The bad timing drops me to 2.5-2.9 depending on how far its off.
I am not sure I understood but, are you still waiting for a swing before using slam? Cause since patch 3.0 slam only delays the swing regardless of when you cast it, and best rotation is based on gcd efficiency with a priority list.
Maybe this is latency on my quartz timer, but I find if I cast it around that time (.5-.7) I find myself still getting a white hit and the slam about the same time.
On a side note, the newest PTR build... I didn't think it would get that good. I hope this translates well in raids and with scaling.
* Warrior T8 Melee 2P Bonus -- Heroic Strike and Slam critical strikes have a chance to grant you 150% haste rating for 5 sec.
* Warrior T8 Melee 4P Bonus -- Increases the critical strike chance of Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst by 10%.
* Unrelenting Assault now Reduces the cooldown of your Overpower and Revenge abilities by 2 secs and increases the damage done by both abilities by 10/20%. In addition, if you strike a player with Overpower while they are casting, their magical damage and healing will be reduced by 25/50 for 6 sec.
* Weapon Mastery has been moved from Fury (Tier 5) to Arms (Tier 6)
* Juggernaut *New Talent* (Tier 8 ) - Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat.
* Improved Intercept was moved from Arms (Tier 6) to Fury (Tier 5)
Last edited by Tremulant887 : 03/18/09 at 11:06 PM.
* Warrior T8 Melee 2P Bonus -- Heroic Strike and Slam critical strikes have a chance to grant you 150% haste rating for 5 sec.
There seems to be a mistake there. 150% Haste is an insane amount. 150 haste rating is very poor and +150% haste rating is a way to have a scaling buff like we have never seen before?
I believe the real version will be 150 haste rating, which is very low and should have a very high uptime to be comparable to the other set bonuses like +10% dmg slam or +10% crit BT/MS
While it may very well be a misprint, I don't see it being hugely overpowered for arms. Slam is going to be a rather low priority if things keep going the way they are going, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be up much for arms. For fury on the other hand, this could be pretty ridiculous.
I have a preference for people to test on the backside of the raid dummy, seeing as most of us will be tested by our guild on raid bosses.
So far my peak dps is 3.2k on the PTR, raid dummy. Is anyone getting much higher? My gear isn't top-notch, but damn near it.
I was doing around 3.3k-3.4 with a flask, 40 str food, battle shout, and sunders. I think I could do more, but I dont really have any good hit items to toss on to help me reach cap, I am also a bit off because I cant really find a good expertise balance with weapon mastery/strength of arms. I think I will just be lazy and nuke my DKP on a Grim Tol and use that over MoT, and focus more on Ulduar gear for my future upgrades.
I was not using any food, flask or shouts. Sunders I could probably work into the rotation, but none were used at that time.
Prioritizing MS, then using an OP+SD, OP+Rend and slamming between hits with no SD procs.
I've heard of somewhat successful specs using Incite, but now with the Heroic Strike glyph, I wonder if that should be used over the Bladestorm. Properly buffed 25mans would grant you the proper rage regen to HS often, plus the glyph offers a chance at SD procs, guarantees among others. Nothing spectacular, but probably slightly higher dps overall given the situation of the fight.
The T8.5 itemization/set bonuses (& Ulduar plate in general) look pretty disappointing so far. Just completely smothered with stam, hit, and expertise. I may even end up just skipping both bonuses altogether and only using the helm to add on to my 3.09 set. I'm not looking forward to going back to sword spec either, regardless of how beast Voldrethar is. Got really bored with sword spec in TBC.
But even so I'm really confident Arms will be dominant over Fury, and overall in a good spot in 3.1. Even on live I'm pushing 5.2-5.3k weekly with no flask on Patch. Comparing that to most Patch test parses I've seen on PTR where Fury is in the 5.5k area with full BiS gear and dual Betrayers, I'm optimistic for Arms. I haven't had much time to test stuff on the PTR but I spent a bit last night with an old copy on the 80 dummy testing out the new TfB and some other things, and there's definitely a sizable increase in damage along with a smoother and more predictable rotation. Just messing testing various things I was hitting 4.2 to 4.3k pretty easy with JUST bshout. I'll try out on a boss dummy when I get a new copy over. Overpower already shot up to nearly 20% of my damage which is sick, apparently the 20% damage buff was snuck in last build without tooltip change. I just wish they'd take a hard look at scaling and itemization though, I don't to have this issue again where we start out great and slowly drop the bottom of the barrel.
Last edited by remix1 : 03/19/09 at 11:57 AM.
Reason: clarity
I've heard of somewhat successful specs using Incite, but now with the Heroic Strike glyph, I wonder if that should be used over the Bladestorm. Properly buffed 25mans would grant you the proper rage regen to HS often, plus the glyph offers a chance at SD procs, guarantees among others. Nothing spectacular, but probably slightly higher dps overall given the situation of the fight.
That is if you have another Warrior in the raid with Commanding Presence. Using Glyph of Rend, Glyph of Heroic Strike and a third Glpyh of your choice. The T8 set bonus seems to point towards us using Incite for the haste proc. You also gain Thunderclap as a great AoE tool.
Does anyone know/can anyone find out if the 2/5 T8 bonus has an internal cooldown?
Last edited by Polishedhead : 03/19/09 at 6:55 AM.
That spec does indeed look quite nice, Incite and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] will make quite a nice combo.
For those of you who have been able to try arms out on PTR with high-end DPS gear, how was your rage generation on target dummies? Did you have a chance to try it in a raid environment, if so, how was it?
Well enough discussion about what numbers we're pulling. I'd like to take this into a bit more about how we're pulling them.
On the PTR (v9684) I've managed a solid rotation by timing slams right as my quartz timer reads .5(or higher depending on latency) on every other white or so. In between I throw in my usual:MS-OP-Execute when available. The problem I run into is when I get too many sudden death procs, I get all trigger happy and throw my timing off. It peaks great dps, but also takes awhile for that perfect synchronization of 6 sec OP vs white hits/slam to fall back into effect.
In the end, I feel either limited or there is a better rotation I've yet to find. Again, 3.2k is my peak. 2.9-3.0 sustained on average. The bad timing drops me to 2.5-2.9 depending on how far its off.
Not using quartz, and not timing slams. Just prioritising MS, using OP as and when i can and prioritising it over SD procs and bladestorming whenever there are no procs, so free time to slam/HS. I'm able to easily sustain 3k dps at least. When other debuffs are added onto boss, DPS skyrockets. At 3.9k at one point. As you can see i barely use slam due to just not being able to fit it in.
Mob was sundered in the duration by another warrior.
HS Test:
Using: Glyph of HS/MS/Rending
So no Improved BS.
Without sunders, running a wws parse for the dummy:
Wow Web Stats - Attempt 1 (Below Hit Cap) 9"59 - 3182 sustained - tried to mix up slam and HS usage Wow Web Stats - Attempt 2 (Below Expertise Cap) 6"26 - 3140 sustained - focussed on HSover slam Wow Web Stats - Attempt 3 (Fully capped) 10"21" - 3148 sustained - just focussed on HS over slam
Exe Test:
Using: Glyph of Exe/MS/Rending
Improved BS.
Without sunders, running a wws parse for the dummy:
Attempt 1: Wow Web Stats - Attempt 1 (Fully Capped) 10"44 - 3169 Sustained - Slam usage only
Attempt 2: Wow Web Stats - Attempt 2 (Fully Capped) 10"17 - 3132 Sustained - Slam Usage only
Attempt 3: Wow Web Stats - Attempt 3 (Fully Capped) 10"01 - 3249 Sustained - Slam Usage only. (Some lucky RnG)
Originally Posted by bigtractor
For those of you who have been able to try arms out on PTR with high-end DPS gear, how was your rage generation on target dummies? Did you have a chance to try it in a raid environment, if so, how was it?
Rage seems fine. Very rarely out of rage, never often too much. Just the right amount i'd say.
I don't see any real reason to go mad on an incite build.
We only have 1 weapon and turning a white swing into a HS even with 15%crit and even costing it 2 rage half the time cripples badly your ability to use specials on gcd.
At 2.5 speed raidbuffed you need 5 slams to lose 1 white swing.
In a few words if you slam you add 1 special and reduce by 1/5th your rage generation and swing number so +4/5.
Replacing slam with HS will only add that 1/5th you'd lose for using slam.
Over the course of a fight you'll have much less rage generated, much less hit per seconds, tho much less procs of SD, and we are not considering that slam, like HS, is triggering the same haste proc.
For arms over 1.8s using a slam is better than replacing it with a HS, math for this has been provided even before the release of LK.
I doubt 150 haste rating (since the effect is this and not 150% haste) will bring you down to that level.
Not to mention that actually HS is less than 2% of our damage and can at best be 4-5% overall (and just if you have an external source of rage gen).
Anyway to glyph for HS you have to give up 10% on mortal strike or 380 damage before buffs (6% 2hspec, 10% WC, 2% BF and other buffs) on execute.
Giving up imp execute is not only a nerf on your exe damage but also a big nerf when you are under 15 rage since you will only be able to rend, op or use something like mocking blow or waste the gcd.
Nor to mention that effective cost of HS for an arms warrior is incredibly high: a MH normal swing is around 30-35 rage raidbuffed, a crit is more than 60. Turning it into a HS is only good at like 80+ rage or you will face starvation.
I'm not sure at all that an incite build is better than an imp exe build. Giving up 190 damage before buff on any execute (around 15% of our damage) to get 15% more crit on a spell we should use not more than 2% of the time is a no brainer for me, without including the big advantage of having a 10 rage cost minimum execute.
HS is simply not synergic with the rest of arms talents.
I'm wondering about picking up Juggernaut and 2/2 Imp Charge over 2/5 Deflection in the patch. Mobility talents are fantastic on...well..any fights where you need to move away from the target ever, and having spent a lot of time as Prot I've been incredibly spoiled by Warbringer.
Edit - Though picking up 2/2 WM and Juggernaut basically means you can't get Imp Execute. Even just 2/2 WM means 1/2 Imp Execute. Would that just be a gearing consideration?
Last edited by Pixen : 03/19/09 at 9:53 AM.
Originally Posted by Bula
"They were bad, stop trying to figure out why bad players do bad things."
I'm wondering about picking up Juggernaut and 2/2 Imp Charge over 2/5 Deflection in the patch. Mobility talents are fantastic on...well..any fights where you need to move away from the target ever, and having spent a lot of time as Prot I've been incredibly spoiled by Warbringer.
Edit - Though picking up 2/2 WM and Juggernaut basically means you can't get Imp Execute. Even just 2/2 WM means 1/2 Imp Execute. Would that just be a gearing consideration?
WM is mostly there to help in pvp. For PvE we already get 4 expertise from SoA and gear seems not to lack expertise, nor to mention you can get 30 from enchants and eventually you can gem for it since under cap is probably better than STR and crit.
I will take juggernaut aswell maybe dropping anger management, since mobility is an issue of arms, and to maximize dps you need to maximize your melee presence.
Imp Execute on the other side is nothing you can gear for so I wouldnt skip it if not for a talent that gives more per point, and unless somebody pull out the math to convince me that incite is better than imp exe I don't see how could I skip 2/2 imp exe.
On the other hand - looking for opinion. Do you really think arms got enough buffs?
Not really...I was hoping for them to change Imp MS to make it hit MUCH harder. Pretty much we got a 20% increase in OP dmg and 10% more armor pen if using axe spec...which I am.
Maybe even change the way WW/Bladestorm works with a talent in arms, making the extra hits you arent getting on single target effect the single target. That might be OP. Maybe a talent that makes sweeping strikes hit the single target twice, when there is no AOE.
I have no doubts we will be great for AOE, im just scared for single target we will be subpar. I really dont think we are going to scale nearly well enough compared to fury, perhaps even an ability in deep arms that increases AP in battle.
sorry for rambling, Im just a bit upset they didnt do enough to arms.
I've been using the MS glyph, Glyph of Rending and Glyph of Execute on the PTR, and I find myself not using Heroic strike...well, at all.
Also, without anything more than Battle Shout, I'm getting around 3150 sustained on the PTR with arms, without TOO much effort...so long as you prioritize correctly and use slam only when you're sure you have nothing else to do for about a second and a half, you're good. This is as axe spec, btw.
As a neat trick too, I've found that using rend while Berserking, enrage and Mirror of Truth are up increases your overall DPS by a relatively small amount...it'd be interesting to test that out vs. keeping rend up ALL the time.
Some feedback to Hellord's post about Incite vs. Executes. Not trying to be critical, just open. I'm somewhat new to Arms and I need people to prove me wrong to find a perfect rotation.
I never saw much of a point, either. Although I have pulled some decent numbers, it never rose to the max potential.
I don't know the internals of the haste proc, but it could work it's way into being a constant 150 haste when using both skills. My wws parse expired, but I did Patchwerk (live server) and was way over my usual rage regen. HS ended up being nearly 20% of my damage.(4500 dps at the end of the fight) Considering we normally kill him in under 3 min, though, Bloodlust/Heroism probably skewed the results when compared to a longer fight.
Right now my preference for glyphs on the PTR are Execute, MS and Bladestorm. Giving up the Bladestorm or even Rend glyph isn't a big deal, imo, if the HS proves useful. The haste proc + raid buffs would make rage regen much smoother allowing for more HS to burn with. Then again, I don't consider my rotation on the live server to be top-notch for max dps, but my rage regen is still high enough for more HS than some may assume.
For the most part, I agree. In the long run the extra execute damage is worth much more unless some testing with T8 proves otherwise.
Edited due to, "Quote split infraction."
Last edited by Tremulant887 : 03/19/09 at 8:09 PM.
Tested on the heroic dummy this afternoon on the new ptr build
Did about 3600-3700 sustained as arms using the execute/rend/ms glyphs. This was with me sundering the mob and flask/food buff, also with 1/2 imprv execute, think I might go back to 2/2 and drop a point in WM
Tried some TG runs too and they were pretty abysmal, barely 3k on some and sub 3k on others, the loss of WM in fury is not good dropped to 11 expertise without it. Granted TG gains more from a raid setting, it still looks like arms will come out slightly on top if everything goes live this way.
I don't see any real reason to go mad on an incite build.
...
HS is simply not synergic with the rest of arms talents.
We have no other choice than to use Heroic Strike. I'm not talking about replacing Slams with Heroic Strikes, im talking about using every GCD possible, that means slamming when nothing else is lit up, yet still having alot of excess rage that can safely be converted into Heroic Strikes.
Maybe not when your in Naxx gear, but imagine when you're half-decked in Ulduar items. Using just Rend, Slam, Op, MS & Execute is going to leave you at 100 rage consistantly.
Also 150 haste is decent... alot of this really depends on the internal CD of the proc, if there isnt one then Incite will be great. The T7 set bonus proc has no internal CD as far as i know.
03/18/09, 6:55 PM
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