In-Depth Arms DPS Discussion - Page 21

Murderizer · 02/12/09, 4:43 AM

I'd use the Jawbone till you can get a Cryptfiend's bite or a BoH. Finish enchanting your gear while your at it :P

Shaine · 02/16/09, 7:54 AM

Hi everyone! I'm recently changed from fury back to arms, where at lvl70 I spent the most time. I read most of the post here, spent some time on a target dummy and last reset I went into Naxx.
It was quite challenging after fury and after I saw the WWS report I came up with a few questions. Is it normal for rend and overpower doing less damage for 7 talent points and a glyph then execute with only 3 points? Or am I doing something wrong with my gear or "rotation"? Other strange thing is with the Berserking enchant. The reports says I had 17 proc on Patchwerk, much more then everybody else, what I can't understand why.

Here is the report: Wow Web Stats and my armory profle: The World of Warcraft Armory

François · 02/16/09, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Shaine

Is it normal for rend and overpower doing less damage for 7 talent points and a glyph then execute with only 3 points?

Overpower has +50% crit chance, which means more Deep wounds damage.

Overpower costs only 5 rage, it helps using MS on cooldown. Execute costs you MS damage because rage is not infinite resource.

You have 5 talents points dedicated to Execute (3 Sudden death, 2 Improved Execute). And logical glyph choice seems to me MS, Rend, Execute, for arms dps.

Tankietka · 02/16/09, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by François

Overpower has +50% crit chance, which means more Deep wounds damage.

Overpower costs only 5 rage, it helps using MS on cooldown.

And 1s GCD after using it which is not showing on damage meters too but still increases DPS.

hellord · 02/16/09, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Shaine

Hi everyone! I'm recently changed from fury back to arms, where at lvl70 I spent the most time. I read most of the post here, spent some time on a target dummy and last reset I went into Naxx.
It was quite challenging after fury and after I saw the WWS report I came up with a few questions. Is it normal for rend and overpower doing less damage for 7 talent points and a glyph then execute with only 3 points? Or am I doing something wrong with my gear or "rotation"? Other strange thing is with the Berserking enchant. The reports says I had 17 proc on Patchwerk, much more then everybody else, what I can't understand why.

Here is the report: Wow Web Stats and my armory profle: The World of Warcraft Armory

7 points per 7% damage is not bad. It's average.
In that fight you had 13 T4B procs and you used 12. You also had 14 SD procs, but remember that you still use execute under 20% so you can't account total execute damage to 3/3 SD, 2/2 imp execute and glyph.

The 2/2 imp OP gave you an average 6 Deep Wounds that with trauma are 6*0.48*1.3 slightly less than 4 more hits (3.744 WD). They also gave you 1.28*6*0.5 damage through OP crits (3.84 WD).
Since your average weapon damage is ~1500*7.584 ~= 11376 additional damage (1.52% total damage) without considering situational procs and buffs.

Unrelenting Assault increases the dps of OP by much, so doesnt directly affect OP damage but saves your gcd time and makes you able to use every T4B proc.
With 12 OP you saved 4 GCDs that in the worst case you would have filled with Slam. With your average numbers (62%hit, 38% crit, 2105 normal avg, 5227 crit avg) the contribution of 4 spare gcds filled with slam could be 13164 (1.75% dmg).

These 2 talents depends from T4B and cannot be considered alone. Otherwise they are worth 0% dps per talent.
T4B + imp OP are then worth 7% damage + 3.744(DW additional damage)*~1500 = 5616 (~0.75% dmg) so 5pts = 7.75% damage.
We can say that 7 points are worth 7.75%+1.75%(spare gcds) = 9.5% damage, that's more than 1% per point, and indeed better than average.

The real concern is that your last 2 points (wether you took 1 imp OP and 1 UA, or 2 of either) are not really usable in any other way cause alternatives are Unbridled Wrath, Imp Bloodrage or some other situational talent that is not worth more for dps.

Murderizer · 02/16/09, 11:06 PM

Faerlina

Gluth

Those are my two best fights thus far - and rend is worth about 6% of dmg and overpower is 5-8%. Execute is 11-14% so pretty much just as much dmg done as those two other abilities. Except when you take into account the 1s GCD on overpower and the extra dmg from deep wounds. OP is amazing cuz it lets you get your next attack off sooner - and its not slam delaying your next white swing and rage gain (which is probably your other option).

Tzul · 02/21/09, 3:57 AM

ok i've finally read through all 13 pages of this forum and i think i have a pretty good handle on effective dps as an arms warrior, but i'd just like to reaffirm some things here to make sure i'm not horrid. I did arms dps in a 25man nax but it was mace spec with inevitable defeat and i did not have a full understanding of how to arms... been fury for quite some time and its a bit of a change, though much more enjoyable.

Here is my armory page (i think it links it to the left but i'm not sure so here :p Parry - Mal'Ganis

If anyone has any comments on spec i'd love to hear them. I'm not speced into any of the shout buffs because we ALWAYS have improved BOM and i'd rather not waste a GCD refreshing it when bom is just about as good.

Edit: I know i have greater savagry on cryptfiends bite which is ass, not sure if i'm going perma arms at this point, if guild wants me perma arms i'm going to get berserking on the weapon and re gem most everything for pure crit which should put me up to the %40 crit totally unbuffed in battle stance

so again just to reaffirm my cycle should look something like this

1. Fight start
2. Charge if possible if not bloodrage
3. Rend
4. MS
5. Slam
6. SD or TFB if its up, if not slam again
7. MS
Repeat till rend needs refreshing, HSing if necessary attempting to never let a GCD go to waste. One thing i'm not sure as to yet is when to use bladestorm... its nice having weapon damage each second for 6 seconds but thats 4 GCD's that i'm not doing anything.

I've got a descent swing timer and classtimers for making sure i clip rend and don't let it fall off for more than the one second to get last tick (still gonna require practice)

Thanks in advance for any advise or suggestions.

hellord · 02/21/09, 9:46 AM

If I can I try to use bladestorm with trinkets/racials since it's the most damaging ability you have.
With lucky procs you can do more damage through an exe-op-exe-op-ms combo, but you can't know it in advance.

You generally have to keep rend up all the time and use hs when you are >70 rage and <1gcd before a swing.
The risk of using HS with less rage is that you can risk rage starvation, that hurts more than what hs can add in therms of damage.

I also got better result not keeping MS on cd but burning other opportunity moves before it.
OP has a much better damage if 2/2 UA, and execute can reproc on itself. So i generally use MS over a Slam or when I have to dump rage before a swing.

Tzul · 02/21/09, 7:17 PM

Thanks Hellord, I'll prioritize MS under SD or TfB procs. My trinkets are currently Mirror of Truth and Grim Toll, so it won't be easy to use bladestorm when those both proc but i'll give it a shot in next raid.

Thanks

Shha · 02/21/09, 7:41 PM

Can someone link me the source from which people take that 2/2 UA reduces GCD to 1.0 sec after overpower? I can't find it, and it would really need an explicit change of mechanics to reduce GCD.

hellord · 02/21/09, 11:00 PM

It does reduce the cd of overpower under global cooldown. You can use any other move after 1s, I'm pretty sure the source is easy to test. I think you can parse any arms log and find the timings.
Same thing happens to revenge even if I realized you can actually do a revenge-slam in 1s but can't use twice revenge in less than 1.1s-1.2s. I think the same thing can happen with 2 consecutive overpower but I think its a latency issue.

I just logged some data to show the OP cd. You can see I was mashing MS just after OP and it took only 1.218 seconds to land. I have another OP later in the log that's only 0.8 between damage (1s between spell_success btw).
These numbers are too low to say it's normal gcd with some lag issues, this happens consistently.

2/22 04:35:13.953  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x000000000046C2AF,"Hellorco",0x511,0xF130007F9A0019CD,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,7384,"Overpower",0x1,4086,4085,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
2/22 04:35:14.203  SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x000000000046C2AF,"Hellorco",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,47486,"Mortal Strike",0x1,"Not yet recovered"
2/22 04:35:15.171  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x000000000046C2AF,"Hellorco",0x511,0xF130007F9A0019CD,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,47486,"Mortal Strike",0x1
2/22 04:35:15.171  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130007F9A0019CD,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,47486,"Mortal Strike",0x1,DEBUFF
2/22 04:35:15.171  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x000000000046C2AF,"Hellorco",0x511,0xF130007F9A0019CD,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,47486,"Mortal Strike",0x1,5821,5820,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

Anyway the test is easily doable by just getting 2/2 ua and using rend on a target dummy:P

http://www.hellord.com/wow/log_overpower.txt

gia · 02/23/09, 10:26 AM

You can test the GCD by running this:

/run hooksecurefunc("CooldownFrame_SetTimer", function(_, start, duration, enable) if start > 0 and enable > 0 then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(duration) end end)

Source

Killtaker · 03/03/09, 5:32 PM

one of the main things I have noticed a lot of people are over looking is a classes role. Not every spec is designed for all out dps on everything. Arms as i see it right now (till 3.1 info is more accurate) is a support class. You have to keep up rend, demo shout, MS, (if you dont have a prot warrior) sunders and commanding shout. You will do a nice amount of dmg as well as raise the entire raids melee dps dmg because of bleeds if you do not have a feral druid. Yes on trash and mobs that have more than 2 or 3 (Sarth trash) i have found you should try to rend every target in the group this allows your rend to tick on say 4 targets and will give you 4 times the chance for TFB to proc an overpower on the main target. You need to know your role in a raid to be effective its not all dps every second. I can push out 3500 to 4000 dps on a boss fight as arms with BOH, but it comes for learning tricks like rending targets first and supporting the raid a a whole and not just worrying about the DMG meters.

hellord · 03/03/09, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by Killtaker

one of the main things I have noticed a lot of people are over looking is a classes role. Not every spec is designed for all out dps on everything. Arms as i see it right now (till 3.1 info is more accurate) is a support class. You have to keep up rend, demo shout, MS, (if you dont have a prot warrior) sunders and commanding shout. You will do a nice amount of dmg as well as raise the entire raids melee dps dmg because of bleeds if you do not have a feral druid. Yes on trash and mobs that have more than 2 or 3 (Sarth trash) i have found you should try to rend every target in the group this allows your rend to tick on say 4 targets and will give you 4 times the chance for TFB to proc an overpower on the main target. You need to know your role in a raid to be effective its not all dps every second. I can push out 3500 to 4000 dps on a boss fight as arms with BOH, but it comes for learning tricks like rending targets first and supporting the raid a a whole and not just worrying about the DMG meters.

Sorry but this is just plain wrong.
Arms is a warrior DPS spec, and you are required to do warrior's debuff only if you don't have a fury in raid, since you should use every possible gcd for a damage ability. Your role is to do damage and the most you can.
You are a support barely in 10men fights, very rarely on 25men, especially considering most of them are covered by other classes.

With a Boh doing 3.5k-4k dps is a "waste", unless you are equipped with blues or you are considering a fight where you often have to stand out of melee range.
On multitarget trash at current level of content when you rend last target they are all dead, so you better use your time to dps them down.

Unless you missed it, Arms is the worst spec for applying debuffs. It hurts our dps more than fury or prot.
But if you really raid without another prot, or fury or another class that can sunder, then yes you are also support.
This doesnt mean you are not expected to pull out dps.

Killtaker · 03/03/09, 9:35 PM

how is this wrong on sarth? you cant BS unless you want every add that spawns to attack you?