agonis

Iron will is, for dps sake, more useful, since stuns will last less and you can start dps again. However, those 3 points are just needed in order to get other talents.

Personally i dont like spec with improved heroic strike, since i dont think it will be used that much in the dps cycle.
On the other hand, 3/5 deflection is also a bit useless. It just gives a very little edge if you overaggro.

At the moment i will just go down with
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...0&version=9722

since i cant softcap expertise without putting some gems.

 

Logabas

"Still fiddling..." LOL get it? fiddling crab? I know, bad pun.

Anyway, I believe Imp Execute is too powerful to lose. While it only does lower execute's cost, that in turn increases it's DPS because more Rage is able to be converted into damage.

 

wamai

2/2 WA = 8 expertise - assuming you're behind the boss - and 8 expertise ~ 66 exp. rating. On the other hand we have imp execute which = 5*38 = 190 unmitigated dmg for every execute (note: if we assume we're always above 30 rage we'll never get more rage either since we just convert 5 more rage into execute as far as I understand things). Assuming we have a 2 sec speed weapon, utilizing every gb cd during a minute we get 30+40 hits = 70 hits in one minute. Which gives 70*0.09=6.3 SD procs a minute. So assuming a bit of luck, 7 * 190 dmg = 1330 dmg in a minute from imp. execute, or 1330/60 ~ 22 dps. Take note that even if you have a faster weapon swing you can also counter in that slam puts it on hold a lot, which I didn't account for, so think this is a quite optimistic/naive "calculation".

So with that we compare 66 expertise rating, or rather dropping [The Jawbone], or some other expertise rich item in favor of an item with different stats. For this I'm a bit unsure of proper math for arms, but just arbitrarily putting in about 66 str or crit in Landsoul's Fury DPS spreadsheet nets about a 100 dps increase. You'll naturally not always have such awesome gear or stats to trade for all the extra expertise but considering the difference there does seem to be room for bad stats too. Though arms might also not generally scale as well I doubt the differences are as big as turning this around.

So my conclusion: WA > imp. execute - assuming you have the gear to back it up, i.e. not much expertise on your gear in general. WA was not really only a pvp talent for fury and doesn't seem like it'll be restricted to this after having changed to the arms tree either.

 

Logabas

I'll quote Hellord for this one:

Granted, he was taking about this compared to an Imp Incite build, but he has a few good points. In addition, we'll be seeing more expertise rating on our gear and should be able to hit the 6.5% cap without any enchants or gems at all (and considering most pieces I've seen come with either hit rating or exp.). So its not so much as how much per point the talent gives, but the fact that it is too easy to gear around while not having it.

 

Buentoe

Just because there is a lot of expertise gear does not mean you shouldn't trade it off if possible for more of another stat. For instance i would rather have 70 extra critical strike rating and weapon mastery than 5 less rage cost on my execute. If the imp execute talent slot gave rage off of more attacks or all attacks i would consider it. 5 less rage cost on your execute is not going to make or break your rotation or rage generation. Having incite build will be real handy anytime there is more than one mob (even one mob if you like to use HS) and i don't see a reason to go down fury anymore at all unless you need to give your guild imp battleshout.

Ill take my free expertise in other words

 

Rallik

It's silly to just say, "Oh we can gear for it, therefore the points don't matter." It's also silly to say that just because an effect can't be gained other than through talents that it's automatically worth taking. If you need an additional 2% expertise from gear, it's obvious that you will be giving up some amount of other stats to get it, regardless of how plentiful expertise is on gear. The only exception would be if there were sufficient items with expertise that were BiS even if you were already expertise capped(hint: there aren't any). WM is a DPS gain by allowing you to drop expertise for other stats on gear without question. Whether or not it is more of a gain than Imp. Execute or Incite requires actual analysis, not just nonsense about how easy it is to get expertise so it doesn't matter. I haven't bothered figuring it out yet myself when there's no point until we know more of the gear available in Ulduar.

 

Tremulant887

Well if you CAN get something from a bit of enchants and gems then the skill points should be aimed towards max dps if applicable. For the most part, we assume people are in full naxx25 and have the ability to change stats as they see fit. Expertise cap is not that hard to obtain, but yes, the WM option is a good one so we do not have to sacrifice stats elsewhere. Right now the past few pages are full of PTR theory, calculations and arguments. Not much proof until we all get out there and test it in a balanced raid.

 

Tankietka

I wonder how many fights with stuns on which Iron Will will work will be there in Ulduar. And actually has anyone counted such fights now?

To be honest I don't see a clear winner here. Low Arms tree tiers are simply bad here, no matter what we will waste few points.

 

hellord

Imho you underestimate Execute contribution during the course of an entire fight.
SD procs works for 80% of the boss health, for the other 20 execute is still a great ability especially if you ca use a swingtimer.
Execute extra damage does 38*1.06*1.1(wrecking crew)*1.04(BF) that's 46 per point. 230 damage on execute before armor and before crit with 2/2 imp execute.

On a sidenote there are better talents to drop than imp execute if you plan to get imp WM. First of all anger management or trauma (if it will be provided by a feral tank for ex).

We anyway get 4 expertise from SoA, some races get another 5 using proper weapons and you can get 30 from enchants and, if you aren't capped, expertise is worth more than str (in fury spreadsheet anyway) so in theory the few more points you need to cap can be granted by gems, and it would be a good choice to gem for it since its value is probably one of the highest.

While it can be silly to skip talents that give stats you can get from gear, it must be demonstrated that dropping points in imp execute is better than dropping points somewhere else in the arms tree.

What makes imp execute great for me is the opportunity value more than the damage itself. It let you use a gcd when you are at 10 rage, and this is not easy to calculate in theory.

From my personal experience I can say I had loads of times, even in fights where I get rage from outer sources, where I was able to fill a gcd only cause execute costs 10 rage, and it will also give you back those 10 rage.

I am not sold that expertise will have such high value once we have 20% damage on OP; it will be still worth capping it but its SEP should drop by a bit.

I don't see any problem in capping expertise in next tier only with gear, so until we can check the whole loottable I wouldnt be excited about dropping imp exe to get some free stats.
WM is both a pvp and pve talent, but given the way they itemize gear the NEED for it in arms tree is due to a pvp issue (ie we have one weapon and we should use a weapon chain to counter disarm).

ArP Whore

 

Golbez20

I think some of us are forgetting what our 2 set for the next tier is. A 100% crit slam with 2 set would mean we'd start with that buff every time. Also on fights with a lot of movement we'd never have to leave it to chance. So dropping anger management for juggernaut is worth it when i get 2 set.

I don't see myself ever using Weapon Mastery with all of this expertise gear. I don't really want to get anything set up till the patch but for now this is what I've thought about.

 

Buentoe

Remember that the overpower mechanic works differently now. You have a 5-6 second window in which to use overpower before it will proc again. So... if you dump a execute and MS back to back and are low on rage you can overpower next and by the time GCD is rdy again you will have enough rage to continue your rotation or you could overpower early if you are still low on rage. Most of the time with good gear (and gear keeps getting better) you will not have low rage moments and can count on using overpower in this way.

You cannot count on a 10 rage SD execute proc as well as above statement.

Just because the WM ability has a 50% disarm mechanic does not "make" it a pvpish ability, that would just be ignorant. Thats kinda like saying MS is mainly for pvp (the debuff sure doesn't help in pve at the moment). A huge reason why it was moved into arms tree was because fury was far too easily geared, whereas arms warriors have to be hit capped and need more expertise to reach the expertise cap. Having 2 2hers makes it very easy to attain the caps for fury.

If you are not an orc you miss out on 5 expertise. The best weapon is currently an axe (or cyptfiends bite). So for orcs it would actually be easier to skip out on extra expertise especially with BiS gear, but not so much for all other races.

So to cap, use overpower correctly and get halfway decent gear and you can have a great rotation without rage problems: and you can spec for better dps yay!

 

hellord

There are many more issues that leave you rage starved (or at least with less than 15 rage). Glances first, hits seconds.
If you "just" hit and have a 2.5s swing you can't really use both MS and Slam before next swing unless you have ~10 rage left. This means that if you hit on 2 following swings (or worse, you glance twice or glance and hit) you would probably have 10 rage spent on OP, 30 on MS and 1 slam, and since OP is just 1s cd you end up being starved (<15 rage).

Having an SD proc up saves the day in many occasions. We are tied to gcd usage, so if you lose 0.5s just cause you a) don't need to Rend b) used OP c) MB is on cd or boss is tauntable, then you lose DPS, and lose a lot more dps than you could imagine.

Since you prioritize GCD when you are low on rage and as filler you use slam (that delays swing) you often can find yourself able to execute+OP before next swing rather than OP and wait as you suggested.

When you can't use a gcd you waste DPS, and unless you do something wrong like keeping rage at 70-80 all the time these issues often happens even at 2.5s swing, cause there are many chances you don't crit for 2-3 swings and need to fill 3-4 slams so reducing even more rage generation.

The fact that WM is now in arms doesn't mean it's there to bloat the tree even more, if you notice in the same tier you can now choose to skip trauma and use those 2 points (or maybe 1) to go down next tier. This also doesn't mean it's a PvP only ability, but the change is definetly more valuable for pvpers since gear is itemized to provide more than enough expertise.

We can't yet say that WM is a good pve talent since we don't know if BiS will have enough expertise, and you also have a choice of gemming for it.
For what we can see now T8 has 131 exp rating on it and our BiS ring provides another 42 + another ~30 rating from enchants +4 expertise from SoA.

"Would be ignorant" to not consider itemization when evaluating WM value.
It "would be ignorant" also to say it has been moved there to help arms gear up and fury really needed WM to go down 1 tier, not just to cap expertise. Their choice now is gone, they need to get 1 more point among the crap first 4 tiers to take flurry.

From a pvp pov instead, it is a no brainer.

WM should have been moved to 2nd tier in fury or arms to be really good as you say, otherwise it only bloats arms tree more than it is already.

ArP Whore

 

remix1

"The first tier furious weapons will be equivalent to heroic Ulduar weapons and the second tier furious weapons will match heroic hard mode Ulduar weapons."
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Arena Season 6 – Upcoming Changes

Should be interesting to watch out for in the coming weeks when everything is discovered in full. Unless there's a 239 axe/pole that drops from whatever is remaining, the t2 Furious axe could end up being BiS despite wasted stats.

 

Bal

Patch 3.1.0 - PTR Build 9733

Apparently Juggernaut now gives 100% crits to Slam AND MS.

 

◊ Birdemani

Fixed it per the tooltip off the talent calculator.

Relwin: Besides, the BB is not some ivory tower of WoW knowledge, it's just less stupid here than elsewhere.
DeeNogger: Not less stupid, better stupid. The BB takes stupid very seriously. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go misspell the word fire.

 

Golbez20

Patch 3.1.0 - PTR Build 9733

Bladestorm will now instantly Whirlwind up to 4 nearby targets.

huh? what we get a Whirlwind in battle stance now?

I will confirm this when i can get on the ptr.

 

Abso

Pretty sure this is a tooltip clarification. There is debate over whether or not it means that Bladestorm will hit instantly or if you have to wait for the first "tick" of the ability. Also, it would be interesting to see if we get 6 or 7 hits out of it, but presumably it is still just 6. If we do get one instant tick and one tick per second for the next six seconds, this will be a nice buff indeed.

Calling it a "whirlwind" is not accurate and it should not be confused with the berserk stance ability.

Team Ice US-Illidan
www.teamice.org

 

Liar

That Bladestorm change is a nerf.

Current: Bladestorm - Spell - World of Warcraft hits all targets in range.
PTR: 4 targets.

Why they nerf Warrior AoE even though most of our abilities are capped already is beyond me. Maybe they want us to use TC more for AoE but what about Fury?

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

remix1

It's a tooltip change only. I'm Arms right now on live, it already is instant and target capped to 4, 7 whirlwinds total.

 

Vampyrr

For those of us who were fury and are now going to be diving into the world of arms pve dps, what glyphs would you recommend?

Glyph of Execution, Glyph of Bladestorm, Glyph of Mortal Strike, Glyph of Rending are the 4 majors I have narrowed it down too.

But I am not sure which one to sacrifice for what, I figured that MS has to be one of them but is rending worth it?

 

Ragetusk

Glyph of Mortal Strike, Rending and Execution

 

Vampyrr

So 15seconds off bladestorm isnt worth it in the long run?

 

Ragetusk

I don't have any calculations to strengthen my post but i'd be very surprised if the Glyph of Bladestorm would be superior to any of the mentioned 3.
Bladestorm is a good skill, but you don't use it that often compared to Rend, MS or Execute

 

wamai

Quoting the author of the DPS warrior simulator written in the "Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet" thread on page 19 I think.

So rend/ms/execution would most likely be the best combination atm.

 

Vampyrr

Next question as I have been unable to get on the ptr.

Is Axe spec still the best spec or with the ArP changes is mace spec comparable? With the ArP from mace spec + the ArP from battlestance it looks like a hefty bit of armor ignore there. But 5% crit is still 5% crit.