1h fury has everything better than DW arms in terms of scaling, though. It has flurry and IBS. Let's say you hit had a fury rotation, 3bt/16 and 4ww/16. With a 2.6 speed weapon hasted to 1.8, that's a slam chance every 5.3 seconds. With arms, 1op/6, 1ms/5, and 1.8 / 1.2 weapon speeds yeilds an execute every 6 seconds or so, so those can be about the same. 1h fury looks comparable if not better, in a raid setting anyways due to ability scaling also WW and BT are great for scaling compared to arms' stuff. On a dummy the base abilities are stronger for arms.
While I think that some of your comparisons are off, they're close enough and go both ways so that I can ignore them without much consequence. The only things not accounted for are the loss of Trauma and Bladestorm. Trauma we can write-off assuming we have a Feral Druid, just as we could do with Rampage the other way around. Bladestorm isn't a HUGE deal, but it is a dps increase when used.
You're right about scaling too, everything scales better but haste, which is still slightly better for Arms I think due to Incite, but I'm sure the other increased stat gains far outweigh them. Another interesting point of scaling is that the Fury build scales better with rage generation, as more rage = more heroic strikes = more slams. I wonder if there's a feasible point at which you get so many Slam! procs you can't fit them all in.
I'm intrigued by that build, and even through it looks scarily close to TG in the sense that why not just go TG, it has a different style of damage delivery. I'll try it out later and see if I learned anything.
Haste does not increase HSF (heroic strike frequency) unless you are already at 100% HSF. Also, you can argue that due to flurry>BF, haste scaling for both specs would be similar, if not better for the 1h fury build.
The melee/HS damage of a Fury spec with 1h would probably outperform DW arms. Flurry>BF, IBS>>dual weapon specs, precision>weapon mastery, BT>MS, WW>OP, etc etc. Execute and incite don't stand up to fury's benefits. How are you so confident that haste is better for DW arms than Fury? That's a pretty general claim, and you base the entire spec around SD. SD isn't that good. What makes you think it's so good that is scales so well with all stats especially haste? It scales pretty terribly in my opinion. Haste only benefits SD via autoattacks. SD's proc rate is halfly based on your instants. Without slam, you aren't even filling all of your GCD's anymore.
DW arms SD spec would only be good if SD worked off of crit rate in combination with incite and HS spam. You could basically sit in arms stance and spam hs, overpower, and execute nonstop and fill most GCD's with those if that was the case. Can I stress more that execute scales poorly?
Let's see the spec you are working with?
Ill play a devils advocate here, since Ive been toying with such strange builds (and also witha funny build with 0 expertise+attack from front dual wield arms - basing on OP glyph).
Melee/HS damage is actually probably better for arms as strange as it might sound. I dont think incite 1h spec fury would be working, so we are left with either 15/56 build or axe spec build. I dont really think a dual wield spec without dual wield talent will be that great, so i assumed speccing at least some there in arms build.
Arms for the white/heroic damage has following
- BF. 6% haste passive
- Wrecking Crew - thats a big one that you completely forgot. 10% passive damage is huge
- Endless Rage - helps to keep those heroic strikes going (which are more common in 1h spec, and i doubt you can cap them without it)
- Mace spec for OH.
- Weapon Mastery
Fury has:
Flurry (around 90% uptime with 1h spec)
IBS
2% more on dual wield spec
Deathwish
Precision
Now to "pair the talents"
Precision = Weapon Mastery. Well not exactly but since we tend to get over cap with hit and it loses effectiveness for purpose of this post its ok
Mace spec = IBS. While this might sound strange, just check it (assuming normal itemized 1h without STR). 185 ArP is atm better then STR even for fury , so it will definitely add more then 200str. IBS adds up to 250 lets say , but thats with STR gear. Dropping IBS allows you to gear better leather stuff. In fact id probably say mace spec > IBS.
Deathwish = 5% increase vs Wrecking crew of 10%.
5% win for arms
BF vs 22% speed from flurry = 15% approximately win for Fury.
Endless Rage is hard to judge.
So we are left with Endless rage = more heroics and possibly more benefit from mace spec vs 10% Flurry.
For instants we have
MS every 5
OP every 6
Rend tick every 3
Execute every 6 (well that number really might decide the viability of the spec)
vs
BT every 5
WW every 8
Slam every 6 or so seconds
Well looking at it this way
And finally WW+BT vs MS+OP+Rend. Assuming Slow/fast (2.6+1.5) setup for arms and Slow/Slow for fury and 160 dps weapons for easier calc. Weapon damages 416 for slow and 240 for fast. Attack power assumed the same (see Mace spec why - if we assume IBS = mace spec we cando it). Assumed 7000 (again, arms wont get that high but we "simulate" the mace spec here)
WW = 1.2*((416+240*0.625) + ap/14*2.4*1.625)/8
MS = 1.21*(416+380+ap/14*2.4)/5
BT = AP*0,5/5
OP = 1.2(416+ap/14*2.4)/6 * (2.2/1.65 - rough estimate of crit)
WW = 377
MS = 483 (Higher then WW because of lower cd)
BT = 700
OP = 430 (i ignored the deep wound contribution)
Rend = 163.
Execute = 516
Slam = 327
Additionally Arms skills will be improved by Wrecking Crew, adding further 10%.
so its 1404 for fury vs 1651 for arms. Arms has about 15% higher instant attacks damage.
This math has nothing to do with exact calculations. Its just to prove that at first glance DW arms seems comparable with ONE HANDED fury. Maybe better (i believe so but i didnt prove it here). Still it leaves the 2 major problems:
- No good dps MH axe so far in game
- We compare it to ONE HANDED fury, which still seems to be inferior to TG. Saying that a build is better then a bad build doesnt make it a good one .
Still DW arms is in my scope of experiments - but even if it turns viable, it will really depend on grabbing a good weapon set for it - and sof ar there isnt any.
I'm intrigued by that build, and even through it looks scarily close to TG in the sense that why not just go TG, it has a different style of damage delivery. I'll try it out later and see if I learned anything.
By skipping the 4% increase to physical damage it kills a big part of the tree. Unless this spec yields a significant increase to DPS over full arms or TG, I don't see it as a viable spec at all. Consider the contributions to the raid not just the dps meters.
Haste does not increase HSF (heroic strike frequency) unless you are already at 100% HSF. Also, you can argue that due to flurry>BF, haste scaling for both specs would be similar, if not better for the 1h fury build.
Haste does increase HSF actually since part of your rage spending (rotation) is constant, so while haste increases white swing frequency too, there is still more % of rage "leftover" for HS.
Oh and one more thing. Battle stance > Berserker stance bonus, so thats additional bonus for dw arms.
You get more heroic strikes, but your heroic strike frequency would remain the same. Since you also need more rage to turn the same portion of MH attacks.
I just tried the 1h Fury build on the PTR and it came up short of DW Arms: 2.2k compared to 2.5k. Not a huge difference on a dummy. I can see how it would gain from a raid environment though. The attack speed was great, but my rage for Heroic Strikes was lacking. The rage to keep BT and WW on cooldown coupled with Slam, takes away from Heroic Strike rage more than I anticipated. Obviously this problem will be less in raids, but untill we get insane rage gen, I don't see having enough rage to pull off enough Heroic Strikes to make this spec viable.
I got 8 as my lowest and 18 as my highest for Slam! procs in 3 mins. DW Arms came up with 15-23 SD procs in 3 mins. I've spent a lot more time testing DW Arms, but preliminary testing tells me that SD is procing much more often. Maybe Slam! will catch up in raid situations, maybe not, but consider that a Sudden Death Execute > Slam! Proc in terms of damage (and rage most of the time).
I know my numbers mean next to nothing, I'm just giving a point of reference where there doesn't seem to be much catalogued data.
Shha, I'm intrigued with your testing and comparisons. Your view on Mace Spec especially. With ArP being so good, its nice to have a head start. Needing less ArP leaves more room for haste, so we can get more of it without having to sacrifice STR/AP/crit.
Which reminds me: Are we absolutely certain that Mace Spec applies to all your damage and not just to attacks made with the mace like the tooltip leads me to believe? Would this apply to Axe Spec as well, leaving us the Option of OH Axe, MH mace/sword? Because not only is that OP, it would solve our Weapon Itemization issues.
Nah, full ArP until you get full penetration which is explained in the combat ratings at 80 thread. Gemming a balance of on and the other is kind of pointless when one is better and gets better the more you have.
EJ's search function makes me sad. Can somebody point me to this Combat Ratings at 80 thread?
I think what landsoul is trying to say is that this excess rage you will be gaining from extra swings and will be converted to more heroic strikes will not affect the swing:hs ratio. If you swing 20% more you will also have to use hs 20% more to keep the same ratio without that 20% haste.
I think what landsoul is trying to say is that this excess rage you will be gaining from extra swings and will be converted to more heroic strikes will not affect the swing:hs ratio. If you swing 20% more you will also have to use hs 20% more to keep the same ratio without that 20% haste.
This is untrue. If all a warrior spent all his rage on HS, this would be true, but it isn't.
As we swing faster and generate more rage, we still spend the same amount of rage on the rest of our rotation, leaving us more rage to Heroic Strike. The more haste we have, the more rage we have left to Heroic Strike.
Let's assume we're using 2 identical speed weapons.
Let's say that in 10 seconds we generate 100 rage and auto-attack (both hands) 12 times. Let's say we spend 64 rage on our rotation (for simplicity's sake). We're left with 36 rage to Heroic Strike with. That's 3 heroic strikes, which puts our main hand HS:auto count to 3;3, and overall to 3:9.
Now let's say we have 50% haste.
We generate, let's say 150 rage and auto-attack (both hands) 18 times. We STILL spend 64 rage on our rotation, which leaves us with 86 rage to Heroic Strike with. That's 7 (and a bit) Heroic Strikes, which puts our main hand HS:auto count to 7:1 and overall to 7:11, an increase in ratio.
Now obviously, my numbers are estimates and I didn't count in rage lost from substituting an auto-attack with a Heroic Strike, I just did it this (easier) way to illustrate my point. In reality, the ratio would not increase at such a rapid rate.
EDIT: After some quick testing with Bloodthirst on the PTR, Mace Spec DOES indeed affect all your damage if offhanded. Axe Spec DOES NOT increase critical damage bonus if offhanded. Sword spec will produce a Main Hand attack if held in the offhand.
I'm suprised to see that offhand sword spec still procs a main hand attack, and that mace spec increases ArP for all attacks, this makes both of them quite viable in a DW Arms build. Sadly, Axe Spec does not work this way from the offhand, so we still need a MH Axe. Looks like I'm keeping my fingers crossed while clearing Ulduar.
So just to recap since this thread is getting a bit spammed, gemming for ArP is the way to go?
Considering a non mace ArP cap is 916 rating according to landsoul, making Grim Toll one of the better trinkets for an arms warrior if you go down the ArP path that is?
I start to think that ironically, the "good" ArP, will be the downfall of Grim Toll. With arms warriors starting off NOW easily at ~450 ArP (i get there without trying - it counts 126 from battle stance though), the fact that changing betrayer for an Ulduar weapon will most likely add another 100, we are already over the cap, and slowly diminishing Grim Toll effectiveness. Sure we could drop ArP to make full use of it - but it seems ArP is just too good - its better to stack it in a static way then rely on 20% proc. Gem for ArP, switch to ArP pieces where its possible, and 900 ArP doesnt seem too hard to get in ulduar (gems + weapon is 300 alone, 126 from battle stance - all you need is ~450 ArP - again, not hard to get), and that gets us "awfully" close to the cap. It simply feels that Grim Toll isnt worth sacrificing THAT much static ArP to get below soft cap - and above it, wrathstone is better.
Well some of the BiS atm for fury at least dont have too much +hit, on my current setup I got around 167 hit rating.
Using pretty much the same setup apart from a few tweaks here and there will make Grim Toll a much needed trinket to get hit hard cap. That is untill you get some Ulduar badges and gear upgrades, like badge belt. Allthough most of the ArP gear dosent have +hit either
Conventional wisdom on this thread seems to be TfB -> MS -> SD procs -> Slam with everything else on cooldown -> HS if next swing could put you over the rage cap.
Since I get bored at work and the forums I read have started moving slowly in anticipation of Ulduar, I've started reading (for better or worse) the official warrior forum. The theorycrafting there, from people who generally don't come off as stupid, seems to suggest TfB -> SD procs -> Slam -> MS as a rage dump/while moving. Their reasoning is that Slam is much more damage/rage efficient (especially with the 2pT7 bonus), and that MS does terrible damage for a 30 rage ability.
This seems to fly in the face of everything I read here, so I'm curious what the math guys here thought.
From my experience, Slam > MS only if you do not have good enough rage income (low-end gear for example) to fuel all gcds between white swings with your hardest hitting abiltities. In this situation damage-per-rage is indeed important.
However at some point you will get good enough gear for filling all your gcds without having to worry about rage. When you are at this point damage-per-rage is no longer important, damage-per-gcd comes forward instead, which means MS becomes better than Slam.
EDIT: After some quick testing with Bloodthirst on the PTR, Mace Spec DOES indeed affect all your damage if offhanded. Axe Spec DOES NOT increase critical damage bonus if offhanded. Sword spec will produce a Main Hand attack if held in the offhand.
So I'm guessing these rules apply to all hit types. Did anyone of those weapon specs seem better than the other?
So I'm guessing these rules apply to all hit types.
What do you mean by "all hit types"? That offhand mace spec will increase the ArP contribution to main hand instants and such? (like Bloodthirst) If so, yes, it seems that it does.
Did anyone of those weapon specs seem better than the other?
If you mean which seem better in regards to DW Arms; I haven't tested.
I would guess that mace spec would be better off the bat, and probably all the way until ArP cap. But with enough haste, there may be a point at which sword spec would be better because of the increased proc rate (5% is still pretty infrequent even with a 1.6 speed weapon hasted down to 1.0 speed. About once every 20 seconds, well out of the cooldown.) Maybe if we cap ArP, and get a nice hard hitting slow Axe out of Ulduar, sword will overtake mace.
Again, this is only my opinion, with no real facts behind it.
Side note: I actually got Hatestrike and Maexxna's Femur from a Naxx10 last night, but I don't have any more PTR copies available to test out the corresponding specs. Bummer.
A given armor penetration rating or rating increase yields a calculable relative increase in non-bleed physical damage. The relative (%) gain in damage dealt by some non-bleed ability or white swing due to ArP is independent of AP, haste, or crit. This makes it quite easy (as compared to some of the other theorycrafting calculations) to work out the net effect of armor penetration rating or rating increase on one's non-bleed damage output.
In reality, warriors have significant damage components unaffected by ArP: deep wounds and rend. This complicates things slightly, since the relative gain in damage from ArP affects only some fraction of our total damage table. i.e. if the total contribution of rend and deep wounds to your damage output were 50% (example number), then ArP is only affecting half of your damage. This tends to reduce the SEP of ArP.
Given this high-level description of ArP, the point of this post is briefly mention how crit rating probably affects the usefulness of ArP. For arms warriors, bleed-to-nonbleed damage ratio is driven heavily by crit rating. There are some other weaker effects, since bleed damage (rend/DW) use unnormalized damage values, while many of the nonbleed (OP,MS,EX) abilities use normalized values. However, the largest driving factor on the bleed-to-nonbleed ratio will be crit rating. As crit rating increases, more of our total damage dealt shifts to being unaffected by ArP, and the SEP of ArP decreases.
I am not 100% familiar with the current SEP values of ArP in 3.1, but my understanding is that ArP is generally much better than even strength. The above does not suggest that ArP will necessarily become less valuable than other stats, but this slightly unintuitive negative-feedback effect of crit on ArP may shift it's 1.0 SEP crossover point as a function of AP or whatever.
I'm sure simulators/spreadsheets take this into account, but it was kind of interesting to me to think about and spell out in words.
A given armor penetration rating or rating increase yields a calculable relative increase in non-bleed physical damage. The relative (%) gain in damage dealt by some non-bleed ability or white swing due to ArP is independent of AP, haste, or crit. This makes it quite easy (as compared to some of the other theorycrafting calculations) to work out the net effect of armor penetration rating or rating increase on one's non-bleed damage output.
.....
I'm sure simulators/spreadsheets take this into account, but it was kind of interesting to me to think about and spell out in words.
Thats true, but take a look at t8 for example, going from t7 you are loosing around 3% crit. It seems they realized that starting tier has too much crit on it - it isnt uncommon to have 40% crit unbuffed. It's one of the reason that new items dont seem to be very sexy (though there are of course exceptions and we haven't seen everything yet).
My bet is that at the end of Ulduar we will have around same crit as we have now, ap will go up (but not that much since probably we will regem for ArP.
Crit should go way down beyond that when you consider agi disappearing from offset gear as well as presumably dropping poleaxe spec. Could be as much as 10% pending the final Ulduar weapons (and potentially the 239 Furious axe). Deep Wounds and Rend damage proportions will both drop a bit with 3.1, there's no way around ArP reigning over all.
I've tried my best to collect gear to switch around from Fury to Arms come 3.1, but the RNG has not been kind. Because of this I've been contemplating Weapon Mastery and how to fit it into my build. The issue is I cannot give up Trauma or Blood Frenzy. With this in mind has anyone given the thought of what they would trade for Weapon Mastery?
I've also been considering how I'd approach trash packs. Thunderclap crits cause main hand Deep Wounds. I've done some testing on the PTR and Thunderclaps seems to only use my crit gained from crit rating (only ~1000 uses of Thunderclap on the level 70 dummy with the crit rate ending up at like 22.7%. Crit rating gives me 21.9%.). I know that with enough targets Thunderclap would overtake the standard rotation, but I'm having problems figuring out just how many would be required.
If you actually need the expertise, -2% dodge is definitely better then imp execute (and that lets you pick up other stuff - like anger management for example). Remember about gemming possibilities though (although I personally think that benefit from imp execute doesnt balance 64 str that you would lose by getting expertise the gem way. Opinions might vary of course)
For me the question still stands wether or not to totally re-gem for max ArP. The plan is to specc arms, and with my current gear I sit on 317 ArP rating and a grim toll, which means I will cap ArP when GT procs. But should I continue to re-gem all my gear for more ArP or keep the Str gems (off cause while remaining hit and expertise capped).
I would appreciate if anyone could shed some light on this, I know some of you are working on spreadsheets for 3.1. That might have given you an idea of what to do.
I lose imp execute...oh well...commanding presence...we have a pally with imp might, and trauma, which we have a feral druid in raid at all times, so these buffs are covered.
What I pick up is imp tclap for trash, which could be a HUGE buff to my aoe dmg...wouldnt it?
04/09/09, 7:57 PM
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