alkis

Of course it does. Bladestorm is actually hitting mobs with whirlwind (same spell id as if you hit them with whirlwind).

 

alkis

While I agree it is a priority queue, I disagree with the order. Bladestorm and Mortal Strike should be right after Rend. Also you should differentiate between a normal Execute and a Sudden Death Execute. The former has lower priority than Overpower but the latter doesn't since it leaves enough rage for Overpower to be used. To put it down in a list format:

• Rend
• Bladestorm
• MS
• Execute - Sudden Death
• Overpower
• Execute - Normal sub-20%
• Slam

 

Larsiak

Some more words on the spreadsheet:

I used [Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver] for damage-range.

The boss armor of 6815 derives from the assumption of 12k without debuffs, -3925 from sunder armor and -1260 from fearie fire.
Perhaps something around 13k without debuffs would be more appropriate, considering Wrath boss armor testing


To adress a general missconception: It is not correct to say you can Slam two times intead of one MS. You have to consider the hidden rage costs of Slam through delaying your next white swing. Assuming you specced imp. Slam and are fully raid-buffed, the "extra costs" of Slam are in the range of 7 rage. (Secondary you have to substract the amount you lowered your white damage through the slam-delay, from your Slam damage.)

The next problem is that all 2h-axes of epic quality attainable through pve have 3.4 weaponspeed (i think it's general consensus that pole-axe spec is superior). In fact there are some interesting polearms in the current raid-content, but as an Orc im quite affixed in using an axe.
Anyways if you are using a quite "fast" 2H, your slams will suffer more to this than your MS, due to slam not beeing normalized. On top of this with imp. MS and Glyph of MS your MS will hit considerably harder than your Slam.

You need a slow 2H in the range of 3.6-3.8 and the 2pcs T7-bonus to say "It's better to Slam 2 times instead of one MS". And even then it's only better for your dps if you have plenty of free global cd's.


Execute Sweet-Spot:
Execute scales quite good with your ap. Even without a SD proc you get better damage/rage with only execute than with MS first, then execute up to 50-60 rage.
With SD the Sweet-Spot lies even higher at about 70 rage.
We are all accustomed to the concept "first burn your rage then execute to get best dps". This is not the last truth anymore. Execute has better damage/rage in the vast majority of situations and uses fewer global cd's.


The math to all of this is in the Excel Sheet posted on page 2.

Again: original credit goes to ebs2002

 

Tankietka

It's even more complicated than that. Additional hit from second Slam gives another 9% chance to proc Sudden Death above the chance given by one MS hit, and chance for second DeepWound instead of only one (but that can be included in average ability damage calculations).

 

Larsiak

I stand corrected.
These two points benefit Slam in this equations, and i have to admit it lies beyond my excel skills to model this.

But i believe the conceptions behind my post are still correct.

 

Timding

Hey, sorry if ive missed it, but afew questions regarding spec and enchants,

First off, Armoured to the teeth, I have read a few posts claiming that the armour check for this is not constant but rather at 30s intervals. If this is true the berzerking enchant becomes a double edged sword. Yes it would be awesome if every time it procced was just after a check, but if the check occurs at the end of berzerking you are left with 30s of reduced AP.

Granted I have no actual proof of whether the armour check is like this, some confirmation would be awesome. Additionally if this is the case, would it be worth dropping the 3 points in AttT and the one I put into Piercing Howl for Gluth and picking up death wish or rather just use the massacre enchant and keep AttT

 

Paternoster

@Timding
Not a practicing Warrior but nevertheless I have a suggestion:
If the uptime of Berzerking is less than 50% then the kind fo mechanic you assume is absolutely in favor of Berzerker. That's because the case where AttT is calculated before Zerker proccing should happen more often than AttT being calculated while Zerker is up.

 

7Sam

By reading the past three pages I came to the conclusion that you all agree that one could generate more DPS by spcing and gearing for TG fury build instead of staying in arms\bladestrom.
Yet you keep mentioning how having both is more beneficial to the raid then the DPS that one would gain from the other "boring" (as some say) TG play style.

If that is the case, then I must ask, what are the raid wise advantages of having one TG and one Bladestorm spced warriors over two TG warriors? is there any thing that arms warrior bring to the raid that is not already covered by another class? Surly I am missing some thing.

 

Hamburglar

The answer to your pondering about the arms-spec would be "blood frenzy" giving 2% increased physical damage pr physical damagedealer in the raid.
Im assuming this means x (for dps) * 1.02 will give you the added dps from bloodfrenzy from each class.
Lets take 3000 dps as an average for our physical damagedealers on a random fight. This is probably a bit low, but anyhow. 3000 * 1.02 = 3060. My horrible mathskills shows that with bloodfrenzy, our physical damagedealers now do 60 dps more individually. At least in naxx25, this could be a pretty good boost to damage.
Everyone should feel free to flaw this math tho, as I`m quite horrible at math and havent had the time yet to go through this with fellow guildies.

Short and sweet, though. Arms gives a buff that fury doesnt bring, and the 5% rampage-crit is ignored if a feraldruid is in the raid, so that means that you really dont get any buffing out of fury at all, except for the hypothetically higher dps.

I hope that answers your question as to why bring an arms warrior.

 

Symphonia

Blood Frenzy is also ignored if you have a combat rogue in the raid with Savage Combat.

 

Hamburglar

Thats interesting to hear, Symphonia.
This pretty much means that arms and fury are equal when in a raid with feral-druids and combatrogues.
I guess Ill test TG for tomorrows naxx25. Great inputs on raid-benefits though. Seeing as we have a combat-rogue, Im pretty much free to spec whatever the hell I want as a dps-warrior.

I did pull 3500 dps on patch 10m with arms, so Im not discounting it as a valid build just yet. Then again, that was the lowest output except for the tank that run, so Its not all good. I find the lack of detailed spreadsheets making arms dps even harder at the moment. Different priorities, different gemmings etc all makes it very hard to "properly" pull off. Ill keep checking in here, tho. Arms pve has always been my favorite bastard lovechild. Thanks alot to everybody here on ej working on the theory.

 

7Sam

Correct.


And this is the part I have problems with, basically we all admit that we are between 500 to 600dps behind the TG warriors.

One could say, "Its such a fun play style, so hell, I'll be 600dps behind, that's never going to stop us from bringing a boss down" but then why do you even bother min\max your stats, replacing 300g worthy gem for anther miserable zero point something dps when you already acknowledged that your going to be 600dps behind every body else?

Now with the mandatory mortal strike glyph and fact that you cant pick up second wind\imp intercept\imp hamstring its not like you can really compete at high level arena pvp with this build ether.

 

alkis

This is why those of you in the US that can write to forums that developers actually read, should start trying to convince them to buff up arms. Death Knights have 2 viable dps specs and 2 viable tank specs, soon to be 3. Warriors are left with 1 viable tank spec and 1 viable dps spec. I think a 2nd viable dps spec is not too much to ask for.

 

• LodeRunner

No one seriously competes in arenas with a PvE spec. Anyone who is trying to do things the right way will change their arena spec, even if it's just shuffling a single point, like Ele Shamans at 70 changing Totem of Wrath for NS. This is really not an issue to gripe about.

 

• landsoul

Rogues go mutilate for PvE. They do not have savage combat.

 

tmacismagic

one quick question does trauma stack with mangle cause that extra 60% would be quite alot of extra bleed damage making deep wounds 108%?

 

Symphonia

No...

 

7Sam

Good point, so just how effective Blood Frenzy is in a ten and 25man raid? is it so effective that it can overcome the 600dps gap you are estimated to lose by spcing out of TG?

How much DPS will a rouge lose if he shell spc some sort of savage combat PVE oriented build instead of mutilate? more then 600dps? and could you really live with all this fun that you get from this play style while you know you could be following simple rotation and just doing better? witch leads me to my next question:

Sorry if I am getting a bit off topic but even if you could prove BF to out do 600 or how ever DPS you lose, to the point it will easily show the raid gained 1.6person (for example...) just how do you handle the fact that its not shown on the meter, even if every body knows that you contribute much... your ego takes a hit, you cant be that 1# DPS guy, you are just that .. guy, like that other guy, you catch my saying? the reason I mention it is that getting higher on the meter, for some of us, is what gives us motivation to spend hours on this forums, and hours getting the best gems\enchants, with that out of the window, how will you motivate yourself to always try and improve your character?

 

• LodeRunner

This is an argument that has been in place since level 70 raids. Blood Frenzy at 70, however, had both a.) no counterpart and b.) was twice as effective. At 70 it was justifiable. It's pretty easy to figure out the math. Check an average boss parse with you as Arms with Blood Frenzy. Now take all the physical damage in the raid and tally it up. Take 2% off that and add it to your personal DPS.

If the number you come up with is lower than what you could put out as Titan Grip spec, you're obviously better off as Titan Grip, and vice versa. How do you explain this to your guild? Well, if they're not total fucking idiots they'll understand.

 

7Sam

Fair enough LodeRunner, Thanks.

Going back to page 2 I came across the following WWS report, lets go over it.
Wow Web Stats

2% of the melee means:
75.72 - Persephone(Hunter)
71.06 - Ienina(Hunter)
63.1 - Bulwyf(Paladin)
62.26 - Fleximus(ench Shamen)
47.76 - Xanic (Feral Combat Druid)
49.18 - Thallius (Death Knight)
40.94 - Bilo (rouge)
19.54 - Tekz (Protection Warrior)
15.92 - Diocaska (Protection Palading)
------
445.48 - Total DPS gain from BF.

Angharad's(The Arms warrior in question) Original DPS: 3248, #10 on the list (25man raid)
Angharad's actual DPS: 3693.48, #2 on the list.

Not bad but some reported gaining a bit higher figures by spcing TG, I guess its going to end up with personal choices for preferred play style and whether or not you have melee as the majority of the raid's DPS.



One thing I still look for is getting Yabanjin's style of results:
Wow Web Stats
Not only that he preformed really well (#1 on the meter) he done so in arms spc so his DPS contribution is even higher then that.

%2 of the melee
85.04 - Hunter
74.54 - Rouge
72.98 - Hunter
68.88 - Hunter
64.54 - Paladin
60.18 - Paladin
59.86 - Rouge
54.8 - Rouge
48.86 - Death Knight
48.66 - Death Knight
49.36 - Druid
35.96 - Warrior
35.28 - Death Knight
32.14 - Warrior
-----
791.08 - DPS Gain

Yabanjin's Original DPS: 4746 (#1)
Yabanjin's Actual DPS: 5547.08

 

Symphonia

7sam, I really wouldn't use Loatheb as a dps measurement or to use for any kind of statistics.

Also, has there been any testing/math to figure out the damage difference in weapon specs, or how much better a weapon has to be to use it over axe spec?

Example: Deciding between [Armageddon] and [Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver].

 

alkis

Not quite. Not all damage you quote above is physical. The protection paladin has more than half of his damage done as holy, rogues have poisons, shamans shocks, bolts and flametongue attacks and so on. What you need to look at is this: Wow Web Stats.

5535278 physical damage done out of which 825024 was done by Angharad. So out of the 4710254 damage done that wasn't Angharad's he (or she?) can be attributed 2% of it. Thus the total damage contribution of Angharad was 825024 + 94205 for a total of 919229 damage. This was done over 4'14'' for a total dps of 3619.

Similarly for the next example you give.

 

7Sam

Thanks Alkis,

And as for Symphonia's question, I guess you could "filed" test it to some degree but a proper spreadsheet would be assume, speaking of witch, is there any on the works?

 

teiglin

This WWS has a combat rogue in it, who is presumably spec'd Savage Combat, and a tanking druid, who provides mangle, meaning that Blood Frenzy and Trauma provided no benefit to the raid that wouldn't have been there anyway had he been fury.

And on a personal note, please note that people who stealth around and stab you are rogues, while rouge is a type of makeup.

 

• Morsexy

Just for comparison my wws for same week. I found it a little eerie that his calculated dps and my actual was the same, but still.

I'd really like to see more parses from Yabanjin but I would think it will get tougher and tougher to maintain that type of DPS as a relative % either in comparison to raid wide damage or compared to another member.

Another question I have, is are you losing Rend damage and a global better used for another skill by refreshing Rend before it is completely used up?

0.0 Rend applied
3.0 Rend Tick
6.0
9.0
12.0
15.0
18.0 Last Tick

You refresh Rend at 17.0-17.5 you effectively go 5 seconds without Rend. If you let it tick and are ready, and reapply at 18.5, over 108 seconds you have 3 seconds of 'waste' and 36 rend ticks. If you refresh before the CD is up you have only 30 Rend ticks in the same period. So it seems letting rend drop if you are in the middle of or about to use an instant, and then reapplying will be more damage than refreshing Rend before it finishes ticking.