In-Depth Arms DPS Discussion - Page 33

Vampyrr · 04/21/09, 1:47 AM

A question I have is my current trinkets are MoT and DMC:G, now the greatness card isnt going to move right now but would it be worth getting my old grimtoll back out or not even and just stick with what I got?

Annihilus · 04/21/09, 2:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zarat

Given that Arms doesn't gain much from haste, at least compared to AP, are potions of speed better than indestructible potions or perhaps even insane strength potions?

That is an excellent question. After the last few raids as Arms, the Haste potions don't feel like they had the same pop as they did as Fury. Has anybody done testing with the 120 STR pot vs. the Speed Potions?

Thairne · 04/21/09, 3:30 AM

Use the spreadsheet, add foney stats from haste and strength potion and decide.

woo-haa · 04/21/09, 6:00 AM

Having played through Ulduar it seems like having the ability to interrupts is important. You have a number of trash mobs and boss ads that must be interrupted. Then you also have a few bosses (IC, GV and Auriaya at least) that require interrupt. Do you think this is a problem as an arms warrior? Do you stance dance to interrupt or do you do like me and play fury for those encounters instead?

uglygreenguy · 04/21/09, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Paradosi

I am rather new to Arms as I can't stand gearing up for Fury anymore and find Arms a lot more enjoyable despite it being twice as hard to maximize DPS, especially when you have to move as much as you do in Ulduar.

Anyways, I've done many different tests practicing different rotations over 5 minute durations with BS. One thing I noticed is using Bladestorm over Slam when nothing instant is up seemed to work best for me. Breaking your rotation when you have instant attacks ready to use is not ideal. I also noticed when I switched to all Str gems from all Arp gems (when GC filled us in on the new Arp caps) my DPS went up 150. I know this may differ on actual bosses.

But the other thing I noticed which goes against almost everything I'm reading on these forums is that Mortal Strike > Execute in my rotation seems to be a lot more DPS. I sustained 4100 DPS over 5 minutes two different times using this method on a target dummy. My rotation is:

Rend > Op > MS > Execute > Slam

I don't use HS on the target dummies as I mostly find myself rage starved but obviously use them a lot more in raiding. When I prioritize Execute over MS, I'm anywhere between 3500-3700 DPS over 5 minutes. This could very well be RNG, but in raids and the target dummy it's been working out a lot better so far to use MS > Execute. I do this on the level 80 target dummy btw as the level 83 target dummy is always in execute range.

Now I realize execute hits a lot harder, that I won't dispute. But the only reason I decided to test this because of how Sudden Death works. The odd time you can chain back to back 30 rage executes if Sudden Death procs multiple times in a row which is a nice increase in DPS but it doesn't happen to often. Sometimes it happens when both OP & MS are down and I get to do that anyways.

But with that in mind, Mortal Strike is a cooldown and I figured better to use a cooldown since I have so much time on the Sudden Death proc to use it when Op & MS are on cooldown. What this does is increase the amount of instant attacks you use on GCD's instead of having to fill those gaps with additional slams. I noticed in both my tests 1 Sudden Death proc went to waste. But I used Mortal Strike 6x & 9x more with prioritizing it over execute in my 2 tests compared to the tests where I Execute before MS. However I had 7 more slams in both tests of using Execute over Mortal Strike.

My question is, wouldn't it better to use MS a lot more than Slam at the risk of wasting the odd Sudden Death proc when it procs back to back when MS is off cooldown? I just find my rotation not only easier to use, but just producing better results when it consists of more instant attacks instead of slams which is lower damage and delays the swing timer. Delaying cooldowns is a waste of DPS, but delaying Sudden Death most times isn't a DPS loss because you never know when it will be back up again. So as long as you use it at some point, it's no DPS loss at all. I just don't see the benefit of using Sudden Death early if it doesn't come up again for 3-30 seconds. It's pretty much just weighing probability.

If you are doing over 4k dps on the lvl 83 training dummy I dont think you need to be listening to any of us. I have similar stats as you but a little less weapon dmg/ap and a lot more ArP and I am doing around 3400-3700 every dummy parse but that is with rarely using HS and using Slam a lot. More input on this would be great.

Tremulant887 · 04/21/09, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Septra

is it really better to gem APR over STR?...would i get more dmg from penetration or strength?

I keep seeing this question over and over and people showing data that keeps swaying my opinion. Tons of Ulduar gear has ArP on it now. Maybe instead of maxing ArP we find a balance of Str vs ArP? Or is it efficient enough to just gem one all the way?

Also, what about the 'end game' potential of Voldrethar? Sword spec is nothing special, but that sword keeps popping up in many test I do on Rawr. Possibly gem full ArP then sword spec if we get that? Or maybe Earthshaper, 1005 max dmg mace with crit/str.

Vampyrr · 04/21/09, 6:50 AM

For raiding is it better to use HS or slams for that extra rage?

Murderizer · 04/21/09, 7:12 AM

Rawr seems to be pretty terrible for Arms. I wouldn't use it at all honestly, landsoul's sheet is pretty awesome. I'd ignore the maces/swords and wait on a Lotrafen, unless you could pick them up for real cheap. Changing to an inferior weapon spec is usually a DPS loss (or hardly a gain) even when the weapon is higher ilvl.

EaE · 04/21/09, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Vampyrr

For raiding is it better to use HS or slams for that extra rage?

Slam, unless you are drowning in rage; then use both, Slam+HS. Won't add much but better than just pure wasting rage.

Withers · 04/21/09, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Murderizer

Rawr seems to be pretty terrible for Arms. I wouldn't use it at all honestly, landsoul's sheet is pretty awesome. I'd ignore the maces/swords and wait on a Lotrafen, unless you could pick them up for real cheap. Changing to an inferior weapon spec is usually a DPS loss (or hardly a gain) even when the weapon is higher ilvl.

So weapon spec is really that important? I have 3 possible weapons to use for arms. My axe is the one from Heroic HoL, my mace is the crafted Titansteel one and my best 2h, Armaggedon is of course, sword. Swordspec being the worst out of the 3, i noticed a DPS decrease after being fury pre patch.

Kysimir · 04/21/09, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tremulant887

I keep seeing this question over and over and people showing data that keeps swaying my opinion. Tons of Ulduar gear has ArP on it now. Maybe instead of maxing ArP we find a balance of Str vs ArP? Or is it efficient enough to just gem one all the way?

Also, what about the 'end game' potential of Voldrethar? Sword spec is nothing special, but that sword keeps popping up in many test I do on Rawr. Possibly gem full ArP then sword spec if we get that? Or maybe Earthshaper, 1005 max dmg mace with crit/str.

I think since ArP is on everything, the easiest way to gain a balance, would be to gem for strength, itemize for ArP/Crit.

My tentative gear plan contains ~55% ArP (Mace Spec) without gemming a single gem into ArP. Even if I reconsider and go back to Axe's that's still ~40%, more than enough ArP. My Attack Power is only 4,000 with shout. Suck all the strength gems out for another 10% ArP but lose 100-200 AP? Meh.

Originally Posted by Annihilus

That is an excellent question. After the last few raids as Arms, the Haste potions don't feel like they had the same pop as they did as Fury. Has anybody done testing with the 120 STR pot vs. the Speed Potions?

Haste pots for Arms are tricky. You have to have: 5/5 Sunder, 1/1 Rend, and 50 rage to get the full effect. Once I pop the haste potion, I am literally drowning in rage. The issue isn't that my damage doesn't go up, the issue is my damage only goes up if I can push the buttons quick enough. It becomes an issue of queuing HS with everything, my button mashing becomes equivalent to:

(My Hotbar = Rend / Mortal Strike / Slam / Overpower / Execute / Sunder / Heroic Strike)

273737347573737357372737373735747372737373

I see a DPS increase, but because we're only wielding one 2H weapon instead of 2, our base melee increase is smaller; and since our rotation is more RNG is, it takes a lot of years of practice at whack-a-mole as a kid. If you don't change up your rotation with the +15/+30/+45% hastes (Different stacks of buffs, see below), then you're going to see a negligible increase in Melee damage and Execute damage (sudden death procs). If you do change your rotation, your DPS increase will be noticeable due to more Slams and the introduction of Heroic Strike.

Just be careful to watch your rage bar (you have to babysit it), STOP HS at 55 rage (So if HS queues again, you still have 40 rage; enough to keep up your real abilities).

Haste pots are also best used in conjunction with Heroism, Hyperspeed Acceloraters, Mark of Nogannon, other trinkets, OR Shattering Throw. I, personally, find it impossible to maximize the benefits if I have more than 45% haste, or more than 30% haste and ST/Trinkets.

I have not tested the AP pots, however, I would put my money on the haste pot pulling out ahead, especially later in gear. Since +15% haste scales well (you hit for 2k white, well +15% haste! You hit for 5k white, well +15% haste!), +200 AP (or whatever it is, I forget) won't. (You hit for 2k white, well now you hit for 2.5k! You hit for 5k, well you hit for 5.5k! // Note: the +.5k is a guesstimate, probably not right. :p)

Originally Posted by Vampyrr

For raiding is it better to use HS or slams for that extra rage?

What this guy said:

Originally Posted by EaE

Slam, unless you are drowning in rage; then use both, Slam+HS. Won't add much but better than just pure wasting rage.

+ If it's a movement intensive fight (Read: Razorscale, lots of trash, lots of movement), and you can't queue slam but end up at >60 rage, it's a good idea to try Heroic Strike instead of Slam. Generally you can go a little ahead of the rear hitbox of the mob/boss and start slam casting and be fine. However, if that's not doable, Heroic Strike will serve that function.

Puresp · 04/21/09, 1:11 PM

Ok, this might sound like a noob question, but here goes.
I know Arms is also about balencing your stats and what ever, but at what AP/Str does ArP actually become better point for point over Str? And also, With all the new ArP items from Uld, I've been prioritizing some ArP, but losing lots of crit. What's the bare minimum crit I should have now? Just to save the armoy trip, I'm at 3500 AP, 35 crit, and -23% Armor unbuffed w.o Battle Shout. I've replaced 2 of my +16 Str gems for ArP ones now. I've also went form 39 crit to the current 35 with all the changing of my gear. Should I still be socketing for Str or go crazy with the ArP after a certain amount of AP?

Egonomic · 04/21/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Puresp

but at what AP/Str does ArP actually become better point for point over Str?

1. Import your Armory profile into Landsoul's spreadsheet.
2. Make the gem changes you are considering in the spreadsheet
3. Click on Recalculate SEP
4. If ARP is below 1, keep gemming for STR

hellord · 04/21/09, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kysimir

I think since ArP is on everything, the easiest way to gain a balance, would be to gem for strength, itemize for ArP/Crit.

My tentative gear plan contains ~55% ArP (Mace Spec) without gemming a single gem into ArP. Even if I reconsider and go back to Axe's that's still ~40%, more than enough ArP. My Attack Power is only 4,000 with shout. Suck all the strength gems out for another 10% ArP but lose 100-200 AP? Meh.

Firstly, the trade off for gemming ArP is 16STR = 16 ARP
16 STR = 16*1.04*1.1*2*1.1 after all raidbuffs = 40 AP
16 ARP rating ~= 1.3% Arp

So for 10% ArP you lose ~308 AP. If it only was 200 (or 100) it would have been a no brainer even at something like 2000 AP unbuffed.

Secondly, the more ARP you have the more it worth, while the more STR you have the less it is worth.
At 40% ARP every point of ARP is worth around 1.3 times what it's worth at 10% (only battlestance), then once you have collected such gear you better regem for it (unless your unbuffed AP would go down under 3k).

There is not "enough" Arp you should get before you cap it at 104.05% after debuffs. Unlike crit (that you need X to sustain rage), and unlike str that for every point your relative DPS increase is smaller, ArP is too good to drop, and its value when you pass 30% starts to become much better than strength.

I'm assuming we are talking about gear lvl 213+, since this value can shift much on ungeared chars, but I suppose we are considering heroic raid level of gear.

Titantenai · 04/21/09, 1:39 PM

Hi, first post. I made an account to post what I tested on my own versus a boss test dummy. I hope it helps some of the more math inclined.

(Sword -110 AP (3951) AttP, -15% Mace Spec)
Battle Stance, Mace Spec, 4061 AttP, 35.89% (85.58% with Toll) A.Pen from gear, 3/3 Imp Tclap, Impale, 3% Meta.
[+3.65% A.Pen from elixir]
{3927 AttP, 45.39% (95.08% with Toll) A.Pen from Gear+elixir}

_(801) _865 _[878] _{882} Hit Enrage/Frenzy
------- 1430 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Frenzy

------- _947 -------- _{968} Hit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy
------- 1506 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy

------- 1092 -------- {1126} Hit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy
------- 1806 -------- {1862} Crit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy

------- 1195 [1219] {1235} Hit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy
------- 1977 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy

_(872) _942 _[957] _{961} Hit Enrage/Frenzy/Sunder
(1444) 1558 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Frenzy/Sunder

_(957) 1032 [1048] {1055} Hit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder
------- 1707 -------- -------- Crit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder

(1085) 1189 [1213] {1226} Hit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy/Sunder
------- 1968 -------- -------- Crit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy/Sunder

(1188) 1302 ------- -------- Hit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder
------- ------ ------- -------- Crit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder

_(872) _942 _[957] _{961} Hit Enrage/Frenzy/Sunder

So unless this info is out there, and I'm not sure since I couldn't find it, mace spec and battle stance come either before or after armor pen. Which means to me that all the people trying to find the 'cap' when adding mace spec into their gears' armor pen is false. If/When I can reach cap I'll test again.

hellord · 04/21/09, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Titantenai

So unless this info is out there, and I'm not sure since I couldn't find it, mace spec and battle stance come either before or after armor pen. Which means to me that all the people trying to find the 'cap' when adding mace spec into their gears' armor pen is false. If/When I can reach cap I'll test again.

Debuffs are applied to boss armor, then you add up battlestance and/or mace spec to your gear and do
(armorAfterDebuffs + 15232.5)/3 to know which value (between this and the armorAfterDebuffs) you Arpen value applies to.

Gear and buffs, thus also talents and stances, are calculated AFTER debuffs, but experimental data till now fit the idea that stance and mace spec are additive with your gear rating.

Check out this post if you want more info.

Titantenai · 04/21/09, 2:07 PM

Ok so I read page 17/18 what you had linked, and the most recent info. From what I understood even though mace/battle stance are 'suppose' to be added to paper doll armor pen, you go past the 'cap' and reduce the armor past what GC said was possible? I know everyone is busy testing but I want a simple answer at some point hopefully to help out the warriors in my guild and just for myself (prot main spec). With battle/mace/toll I would have been over 120% armor pen, then sunders as a debuff, we all know you cannot reduce something 120% without it being negative but there's a cap on it somewhere. I'm going to test hits with shattering throw+sunder when realm comes up.

Paradosi · 04/21/09, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by uglygreenguy

If you are doing over 4k dps on the lvl 83 training dummy I dont think you need to be listening to any of us. I have similar stats as you but a little less weapon dmg/ap and a lot more ArP and I am doing around 3400-3700 every dummy parse but that is with rarely using HS and using Slam a lot. More input on this would be great.

It was on a lvl 80 training dummy. I'm curious if anyone else has tested prioritizing MS over Execute and seen better results. My reasoning and some analysis of what I was seeing in my tests is on the page before this as I don't want to repeat it.

But I also just realized, that as our weapons improve and as we pick up the 4 piece set bonus, it's just going to make MS that much more valuable. I just think people underestimate it's spot in the rotation because it currently hits weaker than execute.

Kysimir · 04/21/09, 4:56 PM

After that one guy posted a graphical doodad of the Arms Situational Rotation, I realized that a picture is worth a thousand words, and teaching people how to play arms < Showing them.

So I made my own.

Originally Posted by Kysimir

Below are Arms "Rotational Priorities." Obviously, the rotation can change based on the RNG Proc of Sudden Death. The proc rate of Sudden Death is 9%, the proc rate below is close to 20% (6 procs, 21 yellow attacks, ~ 10 white attacks -- 6 / 30 (easy math)), so your rotation may be much more slam heavy. However Overpower, Rend and Mortal Strike remain constant, albiet offset slightly by varying GCDs.

Key:

Shaded icons are on CD (Taste for Blood & Mortal Strike), are not available (Sudden Death/Execute) or should not be used due to other, better, abilities being available (Slam/Sunder Armor).
The yellowish orange bars are GCDs (Overpower causes a smaller GCD, however for simplicity I kept them all the same).

Without Sunders:

Note that overpower can be used at any time between the highlighted Taste For Blood procs (procs are above the second meter), but taste for blood CD will remain the same. For simplicity, I used overpower as soon as it was available.

With Sunders:

Note that this is the exact same rotation as before, with the same procs, the only difference is the subtitution of Sunder Armor for Slam. Once Sunder went on 5 times, Slam can be used again as a rage dump. Sunder Armor will be refreshed the next available GCD following rend refresh. (I.E. the first time Slam is an option following rend refreshment; Sunder Armor is refreshed)

Go go gadget scrutinize!

Pepine · 04/21/09, 5:07 PM

I am an orc warrior, and have two weapons (Jawbone, Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver) that I was dual-wielding as Fury before the TG nerf. Since switching to Arms post-patch, I have seen a decent dps increase and have been using my Jawbone with the mace specialization. I would prefer to use the poleaxe specialty, particularly considering the racial advantage of using an axe as an orc, but was never fortunate enough to win the roll for BoH on our Naxx25 runs, and was using the HoL axe as my offhand pre-Ulduar.

I was looking at the two weapons, and wonder if the crit increase I would get from the axe, along with the axe specialty and the orc racial, would actually make the Skull-Clad Cleaver a better option for me right now than the Jawbone. My crit is currently only just under 30%, and the agility from the Cleaver as well as the crit buff from the axe specialty might be a better value for me than the extra weapon dps and strength. The expertise change should be negligible due to the orc racial I would gain from the axe.

Any thoughts? I know that the importance of armor penetration has increased, however, I worry that my crit is too low right now, and this would be a decent fix without having to regem and lose a lot of AP. Once I get my crit higher (my hit stands right at the cap currently) and I start getting some Ulduar pieces with ArP I can start to prioritize that more. I feel like I'm holding my own right now in Arms, but think that I can squeeze a little more dps out by shifting around some things with my current gear/spec.

Puresp · 04/21/09, 5:08 PM

Kk, so yea.. Sry, one more quick question. I suck at reading forums and what not, could I get a quick link to Landsoul's spreadsheet?

Anduryondon · 04/21/09, 8:05 PM

Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet
its just next to this thread :p

Gorrog666 · 04/21/09, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Titantenai

Hi, first post. I made an account to post what I tested on my own versus a boss test dummy. I hope it helps some of the more math inclined.

(Sword -110 AP (3951) AttP, -15% Mace Spec)
Battle Stance, Mace Spec, 4061 AttP, 35.89% (85.58% with Toll) A.Pen from gear, 3/3 Imp Tclap, Impale, 3% Meta.
[+3.65% A.Pen from elixir]
{3927 AttP, 45.39% (95.08% with Toll) A.Pen from Gear+elixir}

_(801) _865 _[878] _{882} Hit Enrage/Frenzy
------- 1430 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Frenzy

------- _947 -------- _{968} Hit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy
------- 1506 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy

------- 1092 -------- {1126} Hit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy
------- 1806 -------- {1862} Crit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy

------- 1195 [1219] {1235} Hit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy
------- 1977 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy

_(872) _942 _[957] _{961} Hit Enrage/Frenzy/Sunder
(1444) 1558 -------- ------- Crit Enrage/Frenzy/Sunder

_(957) 1032 [1048] {1055} Hit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder
------- 1707 -------- -------- Crit Enrage/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder

(1085) 1189 [1213] {1226} Hit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy/Sunder
------- 1968 -------- -------- Crit Enrage/Toll/Frenzy/Sunder

(1188) 1302 ------- -------- Hit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder
------- ------ ------- -------- Crit Enrage/Toll/Greatness/Frenzy/Sunder

So unless this info is out there, and I'm not sure since I couldn't find it, mace spec and battle stance come either before or after armor pen. Which means to me that all the people trying to find the 'cap' when adding mace spec into their gears' armor pen is false. If/When I can reach cap I'll test again.

I've found the same, you can essentially go for 100% ArP through equip.

Adyx · 04/21/09, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Paradosi

It was on a lvl 80 training dummy. I'm curious if anyone else has tested prioritizing MS over Execute and seen better results. My reasoning and some analysis of what I was seeing in my tests is on the page before this as I don't want to repeat it.

But I also just realized, that as our weapons improve and as we pick up the 4 piece set bonus, it's just going to make MS that much more valuable. I just think people underestimate it's spot in the rotation because it currently hits weaker than execute.

My reasoning for it is that popping a gcd move is much better than going MS/execute/slam
I'd rather go execute/execute/MS

What kinda of dps figures are people getting boss dummies?
I got the Mace from joggy and am doing 3.6k - 3.7k on boss dummy with sunders/battle shout over 10+ minute fights
I am also gemmed for full Arp and use grim toll

Anybody else have better gcd rotations too ?
I am currently prioritizing these attacks WHENEVER they come up
execute > overpower > rend > mortal strike > slam > slam/hs

ezp0531 · 04/22/09, 2:53 AM

Hello everyone,

Im not only new to this forum, I am also new to WoW. I started playing in February of this year and started a character who I have luckily managed to get to lvl 80. I have been reading through these forums for quite some time tonight and I did see some information I was looking for but am still a little bit confused. My question is: What is the best, or most accepted "best" rotation for an arms warrior. This includes one for PvP and for PvE, and as I have heard that the gear to be used for each is quite different.

I hope its not too much of a bother or waste to any of you to answer my question and thanks again for the website its been extremely helpful thus far.

Also if someone could recommend a trusted website to compare my arms talent tree with I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

eZp