Replacing Fury of the Five with Incisor Fragment gives 291 rating or 23.62% every 2 minutes with a 172 AP static AP loss (if i were not to let my stack fall off).
If I were to pop that while grim toll is up, I would be at: 1592 armor pen rating or 129.22% armor pen.
This would allow me to bring the boss armor to:
7773.73 * 1.2922 = 10045.21
8088.68 - 10045.21 = -1956.53
ALMOST to -2000 armor. That results in a 15% damage boost during that time. Losing 172 AP for 291 Armor Pen Rating every 2 minutes? I dont know yet but I will test it out on my next Ulduar runs.
Obviously armor pen is the way to go whether it is arms or fury. The more you have the better it becomes.
Quick question, from my understanding ArP is still onlygiving, .81%? of the value that it is supposed to be giving? Or has that been fixed and I am stupid? Or am I just stupid anyway?
Quick question, from my understanding ArP is still onlygiving, .81%? of the value that it is supposed to be giving? Or has that been fixed and I am stupid? Or am I just stupid anyway?
Armor penetration currently works as intended (I believe :). The .81% value is because of how debuffing a target works and that wasn't understood properly before GhostCrawler released the formula. The .81% modifier was found because there is a hidden modifier on boss armor before the armor penetration buffs on a player went in effect.
You can see how it works with my armor penetration calculator.
Targetted debuffs such as Sunder Armor and Shattering Throw gets calculated by 100% of the boss armor, while player buffs gets calculated from effective armor.
So this makes Mace Spec a lot more attractive eh? But GC himself said Arp is good now, but you don't want to be stripping yourself of all your strength now which is a what a lot of people are doing anyways via gems.
I'm also curious, if I can unload some +hit and replace it with Armor Pen on other gear like my chest piece, should I be pairing up Grim Toll with the Mjolnir Runestone and banking my greatness card? I'm also going for the Earthshaper which has a ton of hit so I might not even go for the 2 piece T8 anymore if these Armor Pen reports are accurate and just stick with Helm + BP.
So this makes Mace Spec a lot more attractive eh? But GC himself said Arp is good now, but you don't want to be stripping yourself of all your strength now which is a what a lot of people are doing anyways via gems.
I'm also curious, if I can unload some +hit and replace it with Armor Pen on other gear like my chest piece, should I be pairing up Grim Toll with the Mjolnir Runestone and banking my greatness card? I'm also going for the Earthshaper which has a ton of hit so I might not even go for the 2 piece T8 anymore if these Armor Pen reports are accurate and just stick with Helm + BP.
There are a few things that could seem mistakes in GC sentences in that post (supposing you are referring to Dysent's post).
The first one is the constant used that is relative to attacker and not the boss.
The second one is that ArP IS much better than str especially if you plan to stack it, since it is the only stat that has increasing returns.
Try to understand that ArP is not as good as STR unless you get enough AP and ArP itself so you can't expect him to post how good is arp since every low geared player would swap gems and see no increase then would be back blaming him.
Mace spec even with ArP changes is inferior to poleaxe, less than before but still less. The 5% crit damage bonus on top of the crit itself is what makes the big difference since it scales positively with crit up to cap.
You really shouldn't trade hit for any other stat since makes your abilities less reliable and contrary to expertise you don't have a "free" OP popping up (note that is not free as stated in the previous page).
The difference between greatness and GT supposing you have Mjolnir is dependant on your stats. There are also few more things you should consider, that is that you can't line up both procs intentionally and their hidden cd can make then not line up for the entire fight.
Anyway If you have BiS for tier 8 AND you use all GT hit bonus to cap, it is possible that GT is worth more DPS than Greatness, but you really need to have a lot of AP since the former is 83 hit + ~20% of 612 ArP, while the latter is ~190 STR on avg.
You probably can play with Landsoul's spreadsheet and check when and if GT can be better than Greatness once you have mjolnir and Bis t8 gear. What I wouldn't expect is that one comes out to be clearly superior in a 5 min fight with such gear.
Landsoul I don't believe has updated his spreadsheet with the notion that Arp can reduce armor into the negatives. Until then I'm just speculating what might end up being BiS.
I'm already at 500 passive arp with Mjolnir Runestone. According to the spreadsheet, Arp is already more valuable to me than strength but it gets weaker after a certain point because I think it's still set up with the notion that there is a soft cap or diminishing returns on Arp.
So if Arp does have constant increasing returns bringing bosses armor into the negative, I might already be in a place to pair up GT and MR. The first Earthshaper is going to me so I'll be switching to Mace Spec. The next T8 BP I think will also go to me so I can use my conquest emblems on the neck and gloves for more Arp and a way to unload a lot of +hit to make room for the GT + Earthshaper and bank the greatness trinket.
The real kicker is, at one point does Executioner become more valuable than berserking? If warriors start using that enchant, I could see Blizzard capping Arp at some point.
Try to lose some hit, you are 2.22% over the hit cap.
About ArP, there is a few topics talking about dps gain after reaching 104.05% which was considered the cap. If you have the stuff to go over that cap, run some tests and report them please
The real kicker is, at one point does Executioner become more valuable than berserking? If warriors start using that enchant, I could see Blizzard capping Arp at some point.
They will have to cap or nerf ArP soon because of other stuff. ArP is actually pretty much expotentially scaling (meaningnot only it scales with itself, but does it a very quick increasing rate - not a mathematical definition but pretty used here). At 2500 Passive ArP grim toll procs triples your damage. Just something to think about.
However this way of scaling means it doesnt scale as much early on. By my calculations ,executioner starts outdoing zerking around 1600 base ArP. Even with procs its currently unattainable. However it definitely will be given next "tier" of gear.
More current problem will be people running in pve gear in arenas and gibbing people with double trinket proc (you can get around 20-22k MS crits on 900 resilience rogue with double proc and pve gear). Im not saying it will be overpowered arena setup (no pvp trinket no resilience etc relying on double procs which really have low unctronllable chance to proc). However it will cause enough whining from people to get ArP nerfed swiftly after someone starts using it.
Edit: Clarification - of course by unttainable i mean you cant keep yourself over 1600 armor pen for LONG ENOUGH for executioner to outperform berserking. Getting over 1600 is possible.
Obviously, I'm only asking you all for input on the Arms portion of the gear plan.
My thought process was: since I have someone proving the bleed buff, utilization of Weapon Mastery seems to be much much more beneficial. As for my actual stats, I think I may have miscalculated my total ArP, and my crit might be a little too low. :\
Also, thought on Greatness (Strength) >=< Greatness (Agility)? Essentially 180 Attack Power >=< 1.5% crit with the stats provided in the gear plan?
If you carefully read blizzards post on how ArP works you will see that you can't run armor down into the negative or even down to zero (unless you are up against an extremely low armored target like a lvl 10 mob). Very simply put: say your char sheet says you have 100% armor penetration... that 100% may only apply to say 82% of a mobs armor (the higher a mobs armor the less you can ignore percentage wise). This was done so that ArP can not become too powerful. Being able to hit a druid in bear form at 0% damage reduction would be OP. Sacrificing your other stats won't let ArP be put to good use. For instance if you throw away alot of crit for ArP you will not have the rage to fill all your global cooldowns and deep wounds will not be up 100% even with overpowers. I've been checking out alot of players armories and wondering if these players with crit in the low 20's% (usually not much AP or expertise capped either) buts lots of ArP (gems) can make it through entire fights without ever being rage starved consistantly.
To answer a question a little farther up, imo gem/gear for as much crit as you need to keep a good rage pool. After that it becomes more of a preference whether you want to go for more or not.
If you carefully read blizzards post on how ArP works you will see that you can't run armor down into the negative or even down to zero (unless you are up against an extremely low armored target like a lvl 10 mob). Very simply put: say your char sheet says you have 100% armor penetration... that 100% may only apply to say 82% of a mobs armor (the higher a mobs armor the less you can ignore percentage wise).
Please perform at least the basic research before making wrong posts on things you obviously haven't tested.
I've posted some of my own numbers here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...8/#post1210542 and other players have been finding the same results as me.
Originally Posted by Buentoe
I've been checking out alot of players armories and wondering if these players with crit in the low 20's% (usually not much AP or expertise capped either) buts lots of ArP (gems) can make it through entire fights without ever being rage starved consistantly.
Just in case you haven't noticed, then character statistics on armory doesn't include buffs from talent. So basically all DPS warriors will be at least 5% lower than ingame (axe wielders 10% lower), they'll also lack about 200-220 AP from AttT and expertise as well.
To answer a question a little farther up, imo gem/gear for as much crit as you need to keep a good rage pool. After that it becomes more of a preference whether you want to go for more or not.
I would underline imo since it's your unsupported opinion, cause crit is surely not warrior's best stat.
Even with poleaxe spec that gives 5% crit dmg bonus you have diminishing returns in relative damage.
ArP has increasing returns (and is the only stat that behaves like this).
Crit caps at 75% on white hits, at 50% on OP, 100% on other specials. Rend doesn't crit.
In an extreme situation where you always crit you would have to stop attacking 6 seconds before boss is dead or you would lose tons of damage from deep wounds.
STR was already better than crit pre 3.1, you can debate WHEN arp gets better than strength and not IF; even supposing a cap of 100% or 80% or even at 60%, you would still gem to cap it.
It's still better than crit even after softcap of grim toll.
If you want to be taken seriously please post a log where you get better results from crit than arp or strength gear. Even a dummy could be good.
But I doubt you can do it since basic maths says you just CAN'T.
I got a litte question, I read a lot about armor pen now, a lot of people gem now arp till they are on the cap (40%?).
When i put my Information in the spread sheet, Str is better than ARP, am I right when I say, that Str is better till a certain amount of AP is reached, I think about 3400/3500AP ?
As far as gemming for crit, it's a terrible idea. I've sacrificed near 10% crit for arp and unbuffed sit at around 34% now, meanwhile I'm just over 51% arp with battle stance and my rage generation has gone way up. Pre 3.1 to always maintain enough rage to utilize every gcd I found I needed near 40% crit, now I'm swimming in it with far less crit. That being said I don't want to sacrifice too much more crit at risk of nerfing my deep wounds damage but rage is a complete non issue. I'm seeing dps increases with every bit of armor pen I add and based on a lot of numbers I've looked at it appears the sky is the limit.
Another thing I noticed is that the runestone actually procs 665 ArP, not 612, another tooltip mistake from bliz. It also seems to proc a bit more often than grim toll does... Will need some further testing, but yeah... Negative armor seems to be pretty amazing for the time being.
Few questions about ArP, Mace Spec and Battle Stance.
The tooltip for Battle Stance says it increases ArP by 10%, how is that an extra 10% on top of what you have, or does that increase your ArP by 10%?
Example, I have 391 (31%) ArP atm, with Battle Stance would that bump it up to 41%, or 33%?
Also, do Mace Spec and Battle Stance increase the SEP of ArP, or is the SEP dependant on the static ArP before bonus?
It's 10% on top of what you have. So, if you have 31% armor pen, you actually have 41%. You'll notice if you go into berserker stance the number stays the same so it doesn't reflect in your character sheet, but it's there. Also, mace spec adds another 15% so if you're using maces that 56%. +sunders = 76%.
As for the SEP question...I'm not sure either. Maybe someone else could enlighten us.
Ive found this build to be helpful in one on one fights. It always seems to give me constant instant strikes along with rage conservation and decent defense against melee classes...the extra stun is nice too Any thoughts? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It might be just me and I know I might get flamed for this but there's a steady decline in the quality of the posts here on EJ ever since 3.1.
Can't people read through the threads for a change or make use of the spreadsheet that Landsoul made?
While that is certainly true it just isn't the situation we are facing as raiders. Especially an arms warrior, that needs only 3.5% reduction to be capped (115 rating), if you spend any time raiding and collecting gear you will have more expertise than you know what to do with.
You also have to consider that in addition to being under expertise cap for your white hits, you are also risking the loss of damage from MS, executes, or lost rend uptime. The ability to use overpower doesn't make dodges good...it just compensates a little bit and makes it slightly less bad.
Yes, with better gear it is very easy to get capped, but still situation can happen when you must decide between two items, with one you will stay at expertise cap, with other you will go below. As you said possibility to use OP after dodge is not good enough to want less expertise - completely agree here. However, not only dodge-OPs are what we must think about here - we should calculate value of less dodges versus increase of damage of all non-dodged attacks.
For example, let's assume that warrior has 5% chance to be dodged and base average damage of his attack is equal to d_base. This means that in 100 attacks warrior will do
5*0 + 95*d_base = 95*d_base damage
Now, let's assume we have two items, one which will decrease chance to be dodged by 5%, and another one that will increase average damage of attack by d. Which one is better and when?
With item 1, the damage done in 100 attacks will be:
100*d_base
With item 2, damage will be:
5*0 + 95*(d_base+d) = 95*d_base + 95*d
From dps point of view, item 1 will be better only if
So, even with more dodged attacks item 2 should be better choice if it has enough (more) of other DPS stats over item 1.
Again, I know that most of people here think only/mostly about optimizing DPS in very good or near-best gear and the above dilemma will rather not occur often with such gear, but I prefer to see the whole picture and optimize at all gear levels.
05/01/09, 6:42 AM
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