Here is the WWS log from Xt-002 last night. I feel with my current gear I should be closer to 5k DPS. Is there something wrong with my rotation?
Here is mine from XT last night, we have pretty comparable gear to give you a reference.Now I am by no means pro at arms yet but Couple things I noticed, you didn't work shattering throw in on a heart phase and your slam and bladestrom usage seems low.
Looks like i need to cut back on HS and work in more slams. I was reading some previous posts about slams and they mentioned using slam at the end of the sqing timer. Do you use slam at the end of every swing timer reset?
Ok i have posted this in the UI section also because i honestly wasnt quite sure where it would fit in and im sure it would benifit several other classes that are currently stacking Armor Penetration. What im trying to come up with is a macro that will use the combat ratings from the character screen and factor in armor reducing debuffs (Sunder/FF) to display a quick "Your current armor Reduction is (value)%". This way i can monitor what my armor penetration would be when itemizing out of combat and also so i can see the effectiveness of item procs while in combat. Sort of like the old Uncrushable macro did (displayed below)
From the way i understand it Armor penetration skills and ratings aren't currently recieving the full value that tooltips are describing (correct me if im wrong) but its like .8% of what the value actually is right? Im just not sure on what the command is to retrieve the armor penetration rating.
Looks like i need to cut back on HS and work in more slams. I was reading some previous posts about slams and they mentioned using slam at the end of the sqing timer. Do you use slam at the end of every swing timer reset?
Heroic Strike works for fury because it's a guaranteed hit with extra damage and you have an offhand to generate rage that was lost from the yellow attack. However, for Arms, Heroic Strike takes away rage that would have otherwise been gained from a white attack that wouldn't have missed in the first place. So there's little use for Heroic Strike in an Arms rotation.
Instead, it's better to use Slam at the bottom of an Arms rotation priority. I only use Slam when there is no SD or TfB proc and MS is on cooldown. Basically, in an Arms rotation, you need to be hitting an ability everytime a GCD is up as long as you have the rage to support it.
BTW..you can take those talent points out of Improved Heroic Strike and put them elsewhere for better use.
Is the 4-piece tier set bonus really such a great DPS boost for arms warriors? Over the last few weeks, MS usually ends up being between 10-12% of my damage overall. A 10% crit chance increase on that seems like it'd be a pretty meager DPS increase overall. I'm almost certainly going to pick up the T8.5 head/chest pieces since they seem to clearly be BiS, but I'm seeing really good alternatives for the other 3 pieces.
BTW..you can take those talent points out of Improved Heroic Strike and put them elsewhere for better use.
im sorry what? where else are you gonna put em? Parry? In my opinion that would be a dps Decrease since you do HS when your over supplied on rage. Bad suggestion.
Edit: You should take a look at your own spec before critiquing others. 5/5 Parry, Imp Charge and Unbridled Wrath? Really??
Is the 4-piece tier set bonus really such a great DPS boost for arms warriors?
Yes. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all of abilities, but its contribution to total dps is significant. Using Landsoul's spreadsheet as a guide, it's somewhere in the 100 dps range (or ~2%) for the 4pc bonus alone; and it gets more valuable as crit becomes more valuable and gear gets better.
As long as you can make up that ~100 dps with different pieces you'll be better off without the set bonus. At least in most scenarios; I plan on wearing my 4pc when I get it on Hodir until the end of time however just because of how much enhanced Crit is on that fight with the npc buffs.
Yes. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all of abilities, but its contribution to total dps is significant. Using Landsoul's spreadsheet as a guide, it's somewhere in the 100 dps range (or ~2%) for the 4pc bonus alone; and it gets more valuable as crit becomes more valuable and gear gets better.
As long as you can make up that ~100 dps with different pieces you'll be better off without the set bonus. At least in most scenarios; I plan on wearing my 4pc when I get it on Hodir until the end of time however just because of how much enhanced Crit is on that fight with the npc buffs.
Not to mention Experitise rating! The hardest part right now is ditching all of the ArP gear for much needed expertise gear which gloves/legs T8 has "tons" of.
I too had brought up the lack of crit in T8 gear but have most of my stats related questions answered by the DPS Calc. spreadsheet. I strongly recommend checking it out.
Now on talents I do question the folks that pick up Imp. Cleave. As Arms you are limited in your rotation a lot by the GCD and amongst all the abilities you already are using, where would you squeeze that into your rotation? What are you swapping out for Cleave? Am I reading too much into talents or missing something in my naivety? I admit I am not an Arms expert by any means and hope it is okay to address it in this thread.
Edit: You should take a look at your own spec before critiquing others. 5/5 Parry, Imp Charge and Unbridled Wrath? Really??
Whats wrong with improved charge?
Out of all the options in the first two Arms tiers, only 7 points provide some DPS increase (rend, charge and Heroic Strike). Even moreso now that charge is usable in combat and grants a 100% crit on the next Slam/MS. There are more than enough opportunities to charge in most of ulduar encounters. Additional rage does never hurt.
And as for heroic strike/cleave usage as arms (which some have questioned lately):
While your standard "rage dump" should be slam, there are moments where one literally drowns in rage even when using an instant/slam on every GCD. That is when you should use HS or Cleave (depending on the number of targets).
It is more viable than it seems, as some of the arms damage abilities (OP, Slam) are very economical on rage.
I actually "went to the dark side", and switched to the incite build for arms. 55/8/8 seems to be very close on dps (and yes sometimes better) to classic arms. With rage fueled from aoe dmg it seems to be basically the same for me if not better. But main reason atm, is thunderclap. Since i was lacking aoe for fights like thorim freya etc, I was respeccing fury. However after doing some fights as arms, i noticed how underrated tclap is. Seems like most people ignored how amazingly well it scales with armor pen and other buffs. I specced into the incite mostly for the extra AoE oomph. Right now ive seen tclaps as high as 3000 crits (with arp trinket procs), which also procs a nice 1000-1500 dmg deep wound tick. Crit rate seems to be based on spells, but talents/crit rating apply to it, so you only lose some agi-based crit - which is covered by incite buff, so the crit rate is decent. With average of 1200 hits/2k (+1200 DW) crits on clap , on 10 targets like freya Tclap alone can contribute as much as 3k dps (taking place of slam in rotations generally).
I actually "went to the dark side", and switched to the incite build for arms. 55/8/8 seems to be very close on dps (and yes sometimes better) to classic arms. .,..
I got to admit TC is underrated and I love to use it on aoe fights, but I don't think I am mentaly ready to go with 55/8/8 build yet . It 'd probaly work in our raid setup since commanding presence is present already.
Well, 55/8/8 seems better overall for DPS anyway than an Execute build as long as you have someone else who can keep up HP shout. I know that I generally HS enough to make Incite worth it, which seems confirmed by both Landsoul's sheet and the current Simulationcraft models.
As for Thunder Clap, if there are enough enemies around I'm pretty sure it's worth it as a filler. After all, damage is damage. As long as you deal more damage with it than you would on your other globals, I don't see why one would avoid it.
Thunder Clap is 12% AP scaling, which becomes 15.6% AP scaling with Imp Thunder Clap. That should put its damage around 1.1-1.5k depending on your AP figures fully raid-buffed. So, I would guess that as long as you're hitting at least 4 targets with it, it's probably better damage than Slam.
The great increase in tclap damage is the up to 1.5+ k of deep wounds resulting from every crit. So if you strike the mentioned 10 targets on little freya adds for example , with a good 55-60% crit rate with incite (again it doesnt get agility bonus, but seems to get all others - lotp replaced with moonkin/elemental aura i guess , and agility is worth less then 15% from incite), deep wounds alone account to maybe more then 9k damage.
From the way i understand it Armor penetration skills and ratings aren't currently recieving the full value that tooltips are describing (correct me if im wrong) but its like .8% of what the value actually is right? Im just not sure on what the command is to retrieve the armor penetration rating.
ArP is working as intended, but the formula has changed and you can check how it works in the combat ratings thread.
In few words, you take the smaller value between the armor and (the armor+15232.5)/3. Then you multiply it by (1-20%) for sunder and (1-5%) for ff (equal to multiplying armor by 0.76), and then subtract the arp% from the result.
To get the arp rating you only need GetCombatRating(25). Every rating has a value and you can see the whole list here
The .8 value is due to the difference between 10643 and (10643+15232.5)/3 but changes with the base armor.
The great increase in tclap damage is the up to 1.5+ k of deep wounds resulting from every crit. So if you strike the mentioned 10 targets on little freya adds for example , with a good 55-60% crit rate with incite (again it doesnt get agility bonus, but seems to get all others - lotp replaced with moonkin/elemental aura i guess , and agility is worth less then 15% from incite), deep wounds alone account to maybe more then 9k damage.
Do you really get sugh high crit numbers for Thunder Clap? Looking at WWShereand here it crits around 10-20% for both fury warriors and prot warriors with incite. Maybe DPS Warrior with Incite can get higher crit on it. If I had Incite I can assume it would crit around 30-35% But still looking at the numbers I would say that thunderclap doesnt benefit either from buffs or crit rating. That prot warriors with incite cant get it above 20% crit is a bad sign. I think there is some other source of crit lost aside of agility. Cruelty possibly which only applies to melee weapon attacks and we didnt have spell crit aura. It can be is just those 3 things. In my case it means TC should crit 22% less than other attacks, sounds accurate.A full report WWS is something fishy to look at since buffs and debuffs come and go, specially on adds.
And while Thunder Clap is valid, I use it myself as fury when there's at least 8 targets since all I lose is one cleave, the example you put on Freya's adds is a little dangerous to have multiple dots ticking.
And yes it seems the spec is worth for arms if the raid doesn't rely on your battle and commanding shouts.
The following is a question on armor penetration PvE consumables. I don't care about PvP.
Let's ignore that currently a certain weapon type and weapon specialization is probably better than its counterparts. Say you were to end up with a two-handed mace such as [Ironsoul], would it be worthwhile to stack armor penetration consumables in addition to mace specialization by using the following consumable setup (but not regemming for armor penetration)?
The following is a question on armor penetration PvE consumables. I don't care about PvP.
Would it be worthwhile to stack armor penetration consumables in addition to mace specialization by using the following consumable setup (but not regemming for armor penetration)?
Well, first of all, the food buff stacks with the endless rage flask. Food buff you pretty much always want Hearty Rhino if you can afford them every wipe. That should be baseline for arms.
For the elixir to be better than the flask, you'd need ArP to have a SEP value of almost 1.8 (as 2AP generally SEP's around .9)
Playing around with Landsoul's sheet, you don't get 1.8 SEP out of ArP unless you're rolling with like... 100% passive on gear before mace+battle, and both ArP trinkets. What I've got puts you needing about 20% more armor pen than is physically possible with all gear known in the game.
This is similar to what it takes for Mace to be better than Axe..
So happily, there is no circumstance where it's better to down an ArP elixir every wipe than it is to just drink the flask.
[edit: While i was working this through, something a little offtopic occurred to me...
Shattering throw is a damage decrease once you pass 125% total ArP(!) - even if someone else applies the debuff and you don't have to break rotation.
It's very realistic to actually lose 1-4% damage during GT or Mjol procs with high end ArP gear if you drop shattering throw on a mob with a sunder stack on it, because you no longer reduce it to as much negative armor. Food for thought.]
As far as it stacking I don't know for sure yet personally. I had been discussing this with some guildies and we were planning on trying it out tonight. Based on how arp scales it would make sense to stack (Shattering Throw) since it's more effective the more of it you have. Although since it's duration is very short there may be something to be said for having it up for a larger portion of lust. Tonight if we don't one shot Vezax I'll try to test both methods.
I had thought because Shattering Throw was a debuff to armor that it stacked with Sunder/FF, but because ArP is calculated off of the debuffed Armor Class value that it actually made your end result of bonus damage weaker when you got into negative ACs.
Maybe I read the explanation wrong, can anyone clear this up for me?
I just finished with a round of Thunderclap critical rate tests. Gear and talent spec is the same as my armory profile. I used level 80 target dummies. No outside buffs/debuffs existed to ruin the results. I was in Battle Stance the whole time.
The following is a question on armor penetration PvE consumables. I don't care about PvP.
Let's ignore that currently a certain weapon type and weapon specialization is probably better than its counterparts. Say you were to end up with a two-handed mace such as [Ironsoul], would it be worthwhile to stack armor penetration consumables in addition to mace specialization by using the following consumable setup (but not regemming for armor penetration)?
Perfect. That's the answer I was looking for. My first time as arms was with 3.1 (it's my secondary spec from dual-specs), so I'm having to learn a lot and very fast, especially since I'm raiding with it in Ulduar 25-man as a starting point (I leveled prot). I also need to look up what "S E P" means, since I've seen the term appear a lot. I can't look it up now because I'm about to tank an Ulduar 10-man.
Specifically regarding elixirs, I generally use them for timing issues. If my flask has just run out and I think the raid will end in 20 minutes, I use an elixir instead of a flask. In that situation, where I'm going to use an elixir no matter what, is it [Elixir of Armor Piercing] or [Elixir of Mighty Strength]? I also use elixirs instead of flasks if I'm in an encounter where I feel I need the extra health boost from [Elixir of Mighty Fortitude]. But again, I use elixirs mainly instead of flasks only when I'm too cheap to refresh my flask for 20 more minutes of raiding.
I actually "went to the dark side", and switched to the incite build for arms. 55/8/8 seems to be very close on dps (and yes sometimes better) to classic arms. With rage fueled from aoe dmg it seems to be basically the same for me if not better. But main reason atm, is thunderclap. Since i was lacking aoe for fights like thorim freya etc, I was respeccing fury. However after doing some fights as arms, i noticed how underrated tclap is. Seems like most people ignored how amazingly well it scales with armor pen and other buffs. I specced into the incite mostly for the extra AoE oomph. Right now ive seen tclaps as high as 3000 crits (with arp trinket procs), which also procs a nice 1000-1500 dmg deep wound tick. Crit rate seems to be based on spells, but talents/crit rating apply to it, so you only lose some agi-based crit - which is covered by incite buff, so the crit rate is decent. With average of 1200 hits/2k (+1200 DW) crits on clap , on 10 targets like freya Tclap alone can contribute as much as 3k dps (taking place of slam in rotations generally).
I've been thinking about 55/8/8 only because it seems like so many Ulduar fights includes adds in varying degree. I think I will try it on Sunday night when we go into Thorim and Freya and see how it pans out.
05/07/09, 1:23 PM
. It 'd probaly work in our raid setup since commanding presence is present already.
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