I myself have been a bit concerned by the latest data on the Rogue and Warrior boards of Elitist Jerks suggesting that there is no such thing as a cap for armor penetration. That is to say, if I walked up to a target dummy with 1500 armor penetration (not that dificult of a number to achieve) and attacked it I would be doing more damage to the target dummy than is labled on the tooltip (paraphrased by Aldriana).
And the response by GC
There are caps to armor pen, but the total amount of armor that can be reduced is not one of them. The numbers you need to really to get armor pen to the point where it feels broken cannot really be done with available gear.
On the issue of threat, I've found that even versus a Pally Tank that I'm able to catch up to him even with outside help. Things get a bit worse when I have to include sunder or demo shout into my mix. The threat game is no longer as easy as it was in 3.02 and getting HoS will be required going further on.
Last edited by Birdemani : 05/11/09 at 7:10 PM.
Relwin: Besides, the BB is not some ivory tower of WoW knowledge, it's just less stupid here than elsewhere. DeeNogger: Not less stupid, better stupid. The BB takes stupid very seriously. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go misspell the word fire.
To the Thunder Clap topic: here is wws of my guild's Freya+2 wipes - Wow Web Stats - with 55/8/8 spec.
I was using same spec yesterday on Freya and I was poistively suprised how TC is good on adds phase.
Btw - you had 30 wipies (according to wws) ? how come?
One thing I found intersting looking at your parses is you dont use heroic strike at all, with +15% crit on it I use it rather liberal in high rage situations (of course together with slam)
One thing I found intersting looking at your parses is you dont use heroic strike at all, with +15% crit on it I use it rather liberal in high rage situations (of course together with slam)
1. It's not hard mode, only 2 adds. Next reset we'll work on hard.
2. Yes, i don't use heroic at all, tests i did and theory i digged up tells me it's not worth it.
Here is our Freya kill from the other day. I died halfway through the fight and came back so missing a lot of buffs by the end, but on encounters with some AoE damage being thrown around there is more than enough rage to dump some herioc strikes.
As I also mentioned earlier queing up a herioc strike when Bladestorming normally pays off well for me.
Here is our Freya kill from the other day. I died halfway through the fight and came back so missing a lot of buffs by the end, but on encounters with some AoE damage being thrown around there is more than enough rage to dump some herioc strikes.
As I also mentioned earlier queing up a herioc strike when Bladestorming normally pays off well for me.
No, i mean i never use heroics. Ever (outside testings). Problem with heroic is that it complicates rotation by a lot, and it's already complicated We (arms boiz) got so many things to keep in mind so dps gain from using heroic doesn't worth it.
I really like your idea about heroic during bladestorm. Problem is i don't use bladestorm on single target. I save it for adds, or for removing roots (thorim, hodir, etc).
No, i mean i never use heroics. Ever (outside testings). Problem with heroic is that it complicates rotation by a lot, and it's already complicated We (arms boiz) got so many things to keep in mind so dps gain from using heroic doesn't worth it.
I really like your idea about heroic during bladestorm. Problem is i don't use bladestorm on single target. I save it for adds, or for removing roots (thorim, hodir, etc).
Just remember that on heavy aoe fights you can have up to 8-10% HS damage that should account for about 5% MORE then without HS.
With an incite build this value can go up, but I wouldn't really spend points in incite just to get some damage and crit on tc. Just think that a WW can make up the damage of a tc with ~10-12 targets.
If you want to to go with incite builds you must use much often cleave and hs or you'll lose a lot of its value.
Just remember that on heavy aoe fights you can have up to 8-10% HS damage that should account for about 5% MORE then without HS.
With an incite build this value can go up, but I wouldn't really spend points in incite just to get some damage and crit on tc. Just think that a WW can make up the damage of a tc with ~10-12 targets.
If you want to to go with incite builds you must use much often cleave and hs or you'll lose a lot of its value.
I am not sure i understand what you are saying. You suggest that i stancedance to ww? Well, i'd prefer not to. Let's be realistic, perfect play and/or rotation are impossible, there is always human factor (reaction lag etc.). In order to minimise influence of that factor i try to simplify my rotation as much as possible. For me it looks like it pays off. And anyway, only thing i am loosing becouse of incite is imp.execute. Isn't much imho.
Imp Exec. is 340 Dmg loss per SD Proc (does Glyph of Execute factor into this? would be 373 damage then) on single target whilst Incite increases AoE DPS. Situational and therefore not really comparable imo.
I am not sure i understand what you are saying. You suggest that i stancedance to ww? Well, i'd prefer not to. Let's be realistic, perfect play and/or rotation are impossible, there is always human factor (reaction lag etc.). In order to minimise influence of that factor i try to simplify my rotation as much as possible. For me it looks like it pays off. And anyway, only thing i am loosing becouse of incite is imp.execute. Isn't much imho.
Probaly he meant that if you are going 55/8/8 route its shouldnt be only for Imp TC, but for including HS/Cleave into 'rotation' as well (so +15% isn't wasted so to speak). (TC could be swaped with WW)
I meant that TC is not a so massive dps increase in any situation with less than 10 targets all in range at the same time. In any other case you get more benefits from a ww.
Perfect timing is not really necessary unless you are starving. You could use 3/3 TM and ww after a tc, practically replacing slams with both abilities.
If you just get incite for TC then you find yourself wasting the contribution of HS (and/or cleave) that is more or less 35% of the talent "value" since even in aoe situations you are dealing single target dps (and you should swim in rage so cleave ftw!).
I just don't see TC being so powerful unless you can really hit more than 5 targets every time.
The differences in damage of TC in most of the parses are due to usage: If you don't spec into it you just save the gcd for something else. Don't just think you get 10% damage from tc just thank to those 8 talents cause it will be overstimating it a lot.
Since GC made a pretty clear statemen recently I though I'd resum some data about ArP.
I did the test with Stormedge(Axe) and Ironsoul(Mace), both Ulduar 10 weapons.
With the Axe I have 847 ArP or 78.77%
With the Mace I have 857 ArP or 69.58%
The enitre test was done with Thunderclap (3/3 talented) on the boss dummy in OG. Thunderclap was always used in Battle Stance. With Ironsoul I had Mace Spec. With Stormedge I did not have Axe Spec.
As mentioned by other people already hits get huge with this type of equip. MS crits easily reach 11k and threat is becomming a huge problem.
I hope the data is somewhat helpfull I'll try to evalute it later on, right now I don't have the time due to raid.
I meant that TC is not a so massive dps increase in any situation with less than 10 targets all in range at the same time. In any other case you get more benefits from a ww.
Perfect timing is not really necessary unless you are starving. You could use 3/3 TM and ww after a tc, practically replacing slams with both abilities.
If you just get incite for TC then you find yourself wasting the contribution of HS (and/or cleave) that is more or less 35% of the talent "value" since even in aoe situations you are dealing single target dps (and you should swim in rage so cleave ftw!).
I just don't see TC being so powerful unless you can really hit more than 5 targets every time.
The differences in damage of TC in most of the parses are due to usage: If you don't spec into it you just save the gcd for something else. Don't just think you get 10% damage from tc just thank to those 8 talents cause it will be overstimating it a lot.
Do you have any WWS reports with the stance dance WW? I've thought about doing that, but opted out of it to instead use cleave (my spec has 3/3 Imp Cleave in fury... We have improved might and someone else playing commanding shout).
I would be interested to see how it plays WW stance plays out, but I've yet to see WWS parses. :/
I did not know what thread to put this under so i chose this one. I just bought my Tier 1 Furious Axe. I had Betrayer of Humanity before. I use the Tier 1 Furious Axe in pve and i was wondering what would be better the Polearm off of General 25 man [Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned]. Kinda of confused cause in game the BoH has more dps then my Teir 7 Furious Axe by like .7 when i scroll over the dmg section in my char. tab. But i know the Furious axe is slower and higher top out so its better but the stats on the polearm are pretty nice for arms but still kinda fast..Anyone know which one would be better?
Last edited by Titansgrup : 05/13/09 at 12:33 AM.
Reason: Spelling
Imp Exec. is 340 Dmg loss per SD Proc (does Glyph of Execute factor into this? would be 373 damage then) on single target whilst Incite increases AoE DPS. Situational and therefore not really comparable imo.
I opted to go the 55/8/8 route instead of 54/17/0.
My reasoning behind this was:
If the shouts are covered by someone else in the raid setup, the DPS enhancing talents going 17 talents deep into the fury tree are limited to having improved execute.
5 extra rage converted into execute damage equals 180 extra nominal (premitigation, precrit) damage on an SD proc.
(I'm not sure about the AP scaling of execute damage though)
When SD crits this is equal to 180*2.2*1.05.*1.03 = ca. 430 on a 0 armor target.
15% extra crit chance on heroic strikes means, 1 of 7 heroic strikes will be converted into a crit.
Counting deep wounds damage the bonus you get from incite can be guessed to [(avg HS crit) - (avg HS hit)*0.5]/7 per HS.
Granted, this is highly dependant on the encounter characteristics, but my ratio of heroic strikes to SD procs is usually high enough that this makes up the lost SD rage conversion.
The extra point in arms, improved Bloodrage (minimal as it is) and the added TC and Cleave crit chance come as a bonus then.
If you are on shout duty though, 54/17 seems to be obligatory.
Not to forget the +30% Tclap damage, lower rage cost and greater slowing effect.
Question with regards to the 54/17 build: Where are you getting the points from to put points into Weapon Mastery? Are you all running without Truama or Weapon mastery or some other talent that i've shown here.
The way i see it is, i can only got 54/17 if i have enough expertise not to take weapon mastery... is there something im missing?
Not to forget the +30% Tclap damage, lower rage cost and greater slowing effect.
Question with regards to the 54/17 build: Where are you getting the points from to put points into Weapon Mastery? Are you all running without Truama or Weapon mastery or some other talent that i've shown here.
The way i see it is, i can only got 54/17 if i have enough expertise not to take weapon mastery... is there something im missing?
For 25man raiding you can possibly drop Trauma if you have a feral. It works better if that Feral is a tank because DPS ferals will gain more DPS if they dont have to mangle.
But yes the spec does seem very "tight" on having gear to cover all caps. I was wondering if a spec that could take Weapon Mastery and drop Trauma may reach higher DPS due to not needing some of the Expertise items. Ofc the problem there is that the "best" expertise items are tier pieces and the bonuses arent too shabby.
I just would like to ask what weapon do u think it will be best for me to aim for? I am talking here between 2 choices that are available through PVE. That is the polearm from General or the mace from Yogg.
I am ArP freak and loved that stat since TBC, so now i am happy with it current state. Please dont tell me to use spreadshit i tried, but i just dont really trust them. They put things somehow out of real ingame stuff. So what would u suggest of those 2 weapons mentioned above?
Why would you not trust the spreadsheet? Of all estimates made here, the ones from the spreadsheet are at least the most accurate. However, on your question: the spear is clearly better, stats and weapon-wise.
As i have been working on my dps, my guild mate suggested that i swap out my strength gems for armor penetration, for awhile i was seeing an improvement, however my dps is still not remotely up to par. Since my armor penetration is only at 138 should i just go back to strength gems?
the other major change I have made was swapping out wraith spear for the Armageddon, thus changing specialization switching from poleaxes to sword... is that extra attack is worth the crit i've lost?
05/11/09, 6:17 PM
We (arms boiz) got so many things to keep in mind so dps gain from using heroic doesn't worth it.
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