Alright, maybe someone can lend me some logic here but recently Ive been doubting the poleaxe spec because I just simply refuse to give up to the fact that it is infaliably the best spec to be without regard to the actual dps capacity of the weapons in question. What I have appeared to found out is interesting.
....
Long story short, what I seemed to have found out, is that the non-crit sword spec procs had a chance to proc Sudden Death, and that in the dps tests with the sword spec I had a considerable amount more execute damage.
Lucky RNG over a couple long parses, or is it possible that Poleaxe isn't all its hyped up to be?
Whole deal with swordpsec is its internal 6 sec cooldown. Im really suprised it exists still since WF has been changed and hamstring isnt considered as attack anymore (spamstring in TBC)
For those interested, here are my Warrior PowerAura strings... a couple in there for S&B/Slam! but I didn't want to edit them out since I'm not sure how it would affect the numbered criteria references. Should be safe to delete them after it's all imported I think. They should be "Import"ed in the order they appear.
Bladestorm on cooldown
Heroic Strike on > 80 Rage (tweakable on the [9] Rage/Energy/Runic entry)
Rend when not on target
Mortal Strike when usable
Faded Sudden Death (and Timer) when Rage < 30
Non-Faded Sudden Death (and Timer) when Rage >= 30
Overpower (and Timer) on TfB procs
Slam on > 40 Rage (tweakable on the [12] Rage/Energy/Runic entry with Slam icon)
As noted, the rage thresholds can be tweaked based on the fight or gear if you so feel quite easily. Otherwise it's pretty standard of a PowerAuras setup and nothing super-fancy.
No warranty if it all goes terribly wrong, but it works quite well for me!
Edit: I used Quartz for showing the cast bar for Slam.
Yes, I've had better luck with Incite builds than Imp. Execute builds on all the fights where I actually get to DPS.
Now, I just set that up on my warrior (Who is very undergeared), I currently don't generate enough rage to even use heroic strike. As I'm still unsure of the rotation, I did have a question...is the order the abilities pop up in a priority list, from left to right?
Now, I just set that up on my warrior (Who is very undergeared), I currently don't generate enough rage to even use heroic strike. As I'm still unsure of the rotation, I did have a question...is the order the abilities pop up in a priority list, from left to right?
You just need to setup the X, Y coords for each icon. Just hit the "test" button to see where it will be and just move it around.
3 sets of tests of 100 OP crits with Lotrafen and poleaxe spec and
3 sets of tests of 100 OP crits with Aesir's Edge and Sword spec
[....]
Lucky RNG over a couple long parses, or is it possible that Poleaxe isn't all its hyped up to be?
Here's my view over the matter; Aesir's edge has:
1) Much higher damage range(949 VS 1005 )
2) 2 sockets (extra 43str /98ap(BoK+SoA) the way you have itemized it)
3) 113 Str VS 160 ap (that,along with BoK and Strength of Arms is 257ap,about 100ap more than Lotrafen)
4)-2% crit compared lotrafen
Since you did test with OP(as the RNG of Sword spec might be more beneficial in one test run,while in another could be much lower of value) you saw that Axe spec pulled higher,due to 5%damage bonus.On the non-crits ,due to having higher damage range,sword,in particular aesir's ,produced higher damage,as logical,due to producing a larger number of attacks and hence providing more damage.
To be most of honest,voldrethar would show an even greater inflation of sword spec value due to being itemized in a much friendlier to warrior way,along with the huge stats it packs.
The point is that due to its CD as well as the unpredictability,along with the fact most warriors have about 45-50% crit in a raid(not to mention 4set t8 and OP)makes axe spec's contribution much higher than sword,on the long run,as the +5% crit damage bonus gains more value the more crit you get
To sum it up,axe is not over hyped,it is just the best of all 3 specs at the moment.It is the most stable and most beneficial one.In my opinion,you should test with more equivalent weapons.
Of course this doesn't mean I am right,the only way to make clear and definite conclusions is via testing all possible scenarios.
Sorry for this text wall ^^
Last edited by Systema Sephirothicum : 06/16/09 at 6:57 AM.
The other thing to keep in mind is that Warriors don't scale remotely the same vs. a dummy compared to fully raid-buffed. So, while some tests can be performed on a dummy others are not quite as solid.
For instance, raid-buffed crit rates are considerably higher than unbuffed crit rates, therefore Poleaxe's crit damage bonus would have a greater impact in raid environments compared to comparing one vs. the other on a dummy.
You also have to consider that in raid environments where you will have Windfury and Heroism, the bonus from Poleaxe Spec will scale with haste whereas Sword Spec probably will not (or at least, not as well) due to its 6 second internal cooldown.
So, realistically, Landsoul's sheet is probably better at comparing the two than dummy tests in most ways. Checking it, it seems to account for the chance for sword spec to proc Sudden Death, so it seems 'fair' at this point.
Well I went both ways and used my own math, and Landsoul spreadsheet separately to determine possible "buffs" to other 2 specs to put it at same dps gain for my gear. Ill put them here even though it isnt maybe a place for wishlists - not to try to change them but as example of how big buffs they would need to receive before matching Axe.
Sword possible buffs to catch up to axe.
- 15% proc chance 10 sec cooldown (reduces pvp burst eevn more and sort of lowers randomness. Note the 3 times higher proc chance)
- 10% proc chance 3 sec cooldown (lower cd and higher burst capability)
- 10% proc chance 6 sec cooldown 5% passive haste
Mace spec
- 30% ArP (would limit you to basically a non-trinket setup. Might be somewhat interesting option i guess)
- 10% ArP, 5% passive damage increase
- 5% passive damage increase, 15% haste
That shows how far off the other spec are currently from axe.
Another thing I wanna put down here would be just unlinking the weapon specs from actual weapons. I find it having benefits only :
- Freedom of weapon choice
- Slight buff to PvE arms - picking all 3 "weapon effects" (as opposed to 1 "spec") would provide somewhat minor dps boost (sword+mace TOGETHER are around 8% dmg increase, while you lose around 4% to get them due to huge talent cost). At same time it wouldnt cause PvP problems (since its basically impossible to free the 10 talents without losing more crucial things then the 5-6% dmg increase in PvP). I think most people here would agree some slight buff to Arms is needed - especially that it was promised before by blue and not delivered - sure they added 4% haste (almost negligible), but at same time capped our ArP causing way more severe dps loss.
- More diversed and fun Arms builds then simple cookie cutter.
Does someone here play with a g11/g15? Last week i've started to use a macro for execute>ms>slam, so that I don't have any MS overwriting SD. I managed to be much more accurate to the numbers the spreadsheet tells me and especially on fights like Thorim HM i have much more time focussing on other threats, like lightning charges.
As far as i know the G11/G15 is allowed. My macro is just pressing Execute/Ms/Slam Buttons without delay between them. At first i thought it will be very hard to move, but with some training i can strafe very well left or right while still able to pressing the g15 button with my little finger.
Does someone here play with a g11/g15? Last week i've started to use a macro for execute>ms>slam, so that I don't have any MS overwriting SD. I managed to be much more accurate to the numbers the spreadsheet tells me and especially on fights like Thorim HM i have much more time focussing on other threats, like lightning charges.
Originally Posted by Flaps
You realise this type of automated play isn't allowed right? Aside from the fact that your movement will be borked if you have to spam a G key.
Recently, players expressed some concern over the use of programmable gaming peripherals while playing World of Warcraft. We want to make sure it's clear that creating hotkeys for certain actions in the game is ok. However, if these peripherals are used to automate gameplay to the point where the player is able to conduct repeated actions in the game without paying attention, then that will constitute a violation of our game policies. The use of sustained automated play grants an unfair advantage over players who earn their achievements by actively playing through the game as it was designed. In the interest of maintaining an even playing field for all players, we will investigate reports of automated play and take action as needed to prevent this from occurring in the game.
Basically,using 1 key to do many scripted actions = bad,1 key for 1 function however...acceptable
Had a quick question. I have searched all over these forums and either I am misunderstanding the concept or I missed it. My passive arpen is 52%, however my SEP for arpen is still 1.2. I have Grimm Toll as a trinket. I was under the assumption that after approx. 50% arpen that the SEP for arpen would be less than 1. If I swap out all of my strength gems for arpen, my dps will increase by 60. I realize that this is not a huge deal, but I thought that after 50% arpen that gemming for strength was a better way to go. Am I just misunderstanding how this works?
As a dev on Rawr for DPSWarr, i've noticed that the more ArP you stack (up towards the cap) the more valuable it becomes. However, I noticed that it didn't start doing this until I hit about 875 STR and had Berserking equipped.
I think the way ArP scales is that you have to reach a certain point where AP starts to have a diminishing return (aka more AP isn't as valuable). When you reach that point, you want to start making your AP more effective by allowing more damage to pass through the mob's mitigation. So when you have an unbuffed base of ~3.5k AP you can start heavily stacking ArP to make this AP more effective.
AP doesn't have diminishing returns, every +x AP gives same DPS increase. Instead one point of ArP gives you bigger DPS increase the more AP you have (x% of 5000dps is bigger than x% of 3000dps). It's actually similar to crit, only difference is that ArP has increasing returns (until capped) as a bonus.
Landsoul's spreadsheet is great for checking out when it's beneficial to switch to ArP, as it has been said many times in this thread.
For those interested, here are my Warrior PowerAura strings... a couple in there for S&B/Slam! but I didn't want to edit them out since I'm not sure how it would affect the numbered criteria references. Should be safe to delete them after it's all imported I think. They should be "Import"ed in the order they appear.
*snip*
No warranty if it all goes terribly wrong, but it works quite well for me!
I've imported and tested your settings. I really like they way they're set up and prioritized and see a lot of potential to keep my gaze focused near the middle of the screen, except that the icons for BS and MS don't show up for me when they should . I notice they're the only ones that use the "available" condition. Does anybody have the same problem? Any hints?
Update: the settings are fine, but PowerAuras searches for usable actions on action bars. As I'm using Macaroon, it didn't find any. Solution: switch on Blizzard toolbars, put actions on there, enter fight (not sure if that's needed), switch off Blizzard bars again.
Last edited by Weirdeo : 06/23/09 at 8:30 AM.
Reason: Found reason and solution for problem
As an above poster has already pointed out AP does increase your Damage by a constant absolute value.
I must disagree with his assertion though, that this is proof that it does not have dimishing returns.
Your mileage may vary but I value gear upgrades intuitively not by "how much absolute DPS will I do more?" but by "how much will my Damage increase?" As such damage increase can be either seen as absolute oder relative values.
In the case of absolute values AP does have a constant return and Crit,haste,ArP and even hit have increasing returns.
If seen relatively AP upgrades do indeed dimish with better gear, while Crit, Hit and Haste remain relatively constant and ArP has increasing returns due to the ArP mechanic.
No matter how you see it though, the damage increase value of constant AP upgrades (such as Gems) dimishes *relative* to the other upgrade options the better you are geared. Hence I would say it is correct to state that AP upgrades have "dimishing returns".
As to the worth of crit which another poster pointed out being less than STR.
I'm not so sure about this blanket statement. Even with the double dipping effects of deep wounds removed, a crit is still substantially more worth than a simple hit (checkyour logs for real world values and do factor in the DW damage). Comparing 16 STR to 16 Crit should give better returns going the crit route once your average raid buffed and procced AP value has reached a certain point.
My napkin math tells me that this could roughly be the case when BiS geared in Ulduar. Will have to calculate this in detail though.
It depends on what you define as your fulcrum, of course any one thing only has meaning as it relates to something else. AP is easy to take as your absolute measuring stick since it's linear, well understood, and most importantly easy to understand. You can take your end damage as your measuring stick but you'll have to reinvent all the math all over again since everything is inverse, and it is far more fluid than AP. If your foundation is fluid the house you build on it is that much more of a pain to build. Not to say that you can't, but why?
People say AP is linear because it has linear effect on damage and that requires no further explanation, you don't want to think about your damage curve on a logarithmic scale where AP returns would indeed be diminishing, things like that are too far removed from really the purely practical purpose for which most people are here.
As suicuique more eloquently put it, AP does have a constant "DPS" gain but once you reach a certain point, it becomes less valuable than other things which need to be raised.
And yes, while you may want to think of AP as your constant for a napkin math scale. That's why the community has put forth resources such as Landsoul's Spreadsheet and Rawr.DPSWarr so they can handle those logarithmic calculations for you and show you how much DPS you gain by adding one point of this or that.
No matter how you look at it, no one stat can truly be said to be your #1 stat all the way from fresh 80 blues to T8.5 (and now T9 with 3.2 coming out soon). Some stats are more consistent (such as AP) than others (such as ArP) but once you hit various thresholds and use different sets of cookie-cutter talent builds, you invariably need to start stacking a different stat. Why oh Why! must Blizz do this to us!
was playing around with landsouls dps spredsheet (it is awsome thanks alot for the great work) and after minmaxing for a long time just using the gear option i started playing with specs and to my big suprise the cookiecutter that you see most warriors with was not optimal (at least for my gear level beeing in full 226items armory link The World of Warcraft Armory ) but insted the 56/8/7 spec was providing around 150 more dps. have any one tested this out? been trying it in raids and seems pretty solid 8,9k dps on XT speed kill but i havent done any passes to show if it better than the coockiecutter with imp excute (the reason here is A: i admid my math isnt the best and B: when mob enters execute range i would think the coockie does more dmg for that part) can some one help calrify.
was playing around with landsouls dps spredsheet (it is awsome thanks alot for the great work) and after minmaxing for a long time just using the gear option i started playing with specs and to my big suprise the cookiecutter that you see most warriors with was not optimal (at least for my gear level beeing in full 226items armory link The World of Warcraft Armory ) but insted the 56/8/7 spec was providing around 150 more dps. have any one tested this out? been trying it in raids and seems pretty solid 8,9k dps on XT speed kill but i havent done any passes to show if it better than the coockiecutter with imp excute (the reason here is A: i admid my math isnt the best and B: when mob enters execute range i would think the coockie does more dmg for that part) can some one help calrify.
Venrex from hellscream
I play 55/8/8 (no weapon mastery, too much exp from gear) and like it. Imp Thunderclap is pure fun on Thorim, Auraya and Freya, Incite isn't bad either. I dont need commanding presence since we raid with another warrior (fresh recruit so he is buff bitch . To sum it up if you have buff covered its better build than cookie cuttter.
I've been using the 55/8/8 spec for a good while, too. I have honestly found that as long as you don't rage starve yourself by overdoing it with heroic strike, the increased crit is a huge dps gain over the little extra execute damage (as long as buffs are covered otherwise).
I've been polishing a formula to show the breakpoints in heroic strike damage vs. executes used to determine which is more dps, but I can't complete it because I can't find the correct damage reduction formula for bosses
Hello, folks at EJ! Long time reader, first time poster, etc.
I bring up a question that many warriors just normally keep to themselves, and have their own different way of doing so.
Simply put: When is Bladestorm the most effective?
It is a very powerful ability in our arsenal, also a very questionable one.
I realize the arms rotation is Priority. Use stuff within GCD that matters most and will hit the most.
I have thought about using Bladestorm on every trinket proc. However, sometimes this is a terrible idea as I will lose either- SD Proc / TfB Proc, as they last limited amount of seconds. Trinket proc is usually lessened by 1.5 seconds as the ability that procs it usually has a GCD followed by it.
I thought about letting Bladestorm be a part of my rotation, using it after the first overpower. This brings us to where we could have done much, much more damage with trinket procced Bladestorm.
At the moment, I use Bladestorm on Grim Toll proc. However, within the 6 seconds I sometimes see myself lose Sudden Death or an Overpower- both very important part of our rotation.
I apologize for the wall of text, and appreciate any insights
Simply put: When is Bladestorm the most effective?
This is best answered in reverse. When NOT to use Bladestorm?
I do not use it when heroism/bloodlust is active. Even though haste has not a very significant effect on Arms DPS, it does up the rage income by a considerable amount and this excess rage can be converted into heroic strikes and slams. You cannot do the same when you are using Bladestorm. I do not use Bladestorm when I'm literally swimming in rage. Dumping the rage into slams + heroic strikes in combination of using an instant (OP, MS, Execute) exactly on every GCD offers equal DPS potential (considering the 1 sec CD of WW in bladestorm)
Bladestorm on the other hand is an effective way to utilize a trinket proc, which alternatively could be wasted in a worst case scenario when getting rage starved, to overcome a rage drought, to effectively use in burn phases (Yoggs brainroom) and to use as a means to render meaningless some DPS detrimental encounter effects (root, stun, knockdown, etc). The last one can often be the most important use of bladestorm on some hard modes (Hodir comes to mind).
EDIT: Wasted execution and TfB procs are no concern to me though, because this would make the opportunity window for a bladestorm quite small.
Last edited by suicuique : 06/23/09 at 5:20 AM.
Reason: addendum
This is best answered in reverse. When NOT to use Bladestorm?
I agree with many parts of your post. Bladestorm is a very effective way to get our rage back, as well as an ability to be avoided while using Heroism as the haste does not benefit the damage from it.
However, I still believe the lost TfB and SD procs can be very significant. I will attempt to make a WWS of two patchwerks using Bladestorm on Trinket proc vs. Bladestorm as rotation, after the first Overpower, after that every time it's up after overpower and my rend has 6+ duration on it. The main problem I see with the second part is our RNG in our dps- trinket proc + SD procs may alter the data.
Any farther insights is very much appreciated. Thank you suicuique.
Bladestorm use is generally dictated by the encounter. Fights with no burn phase I generally use bladestorm as soon as both trinkets proc and right after i put MS and OP on CD. This allows me to put it on CD right away to maximize the amount of times I can use it in a fight and get the most out of each one. Because of the 45 ICD on trinkets and their nature to proc basically immediately after off CD I can generally line up a Bladestorm with every other set of trinket procs. If bladestorm comes off CD during lust I generally won't wait to use it but I'll try to time it with shattering throw. Occasionally I'll miss a TfB proc but if you're smart about it you wont miss too many.
As mentioned above there are many situations where it's advantageous to wait to use bladestorm until specific burn phases in fights like XT's heart or Yogg's brain room. These situations are pretty self explanatory and you basically just want to time it so as not to lose a TfB proc and right after using MS. I usually try to use any SD procs before using bladestorm but often that will get you in troube by causing you to miss an overpower. Occasionally I'll risk saving a fresh SD proc till after the bladestorm completes but it over writes itself often so you need to be careful.
06/13/09, 12:12 PM
. I notice they're the only ones that use the "available" condition. Does anybody have the same problem? Any hints?
, Incite isn't bad either. I dont need commanding presence since we raid with another warrior (fresh recruit so he is buff bitch 
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