PsyWulf

Rogues also take a crippling shot to their DPS to get expose up in any case,whereas you can spend 5gcds to get up the sunders,then once every 25secs just refresh it to not drop off.

Also are you using any hunters? Their dps and their pets will also approve of your sunder sacrifice.

I'm not entirely convinced on the fury vs arms respec when you consider Blood Frenzy and Rampage both to be good buffs to physical damage dealers

 

Feitur

You easily may use sunder armor instead of Slam. This of course will lower your dps but will stack it up quiet quickly and sink your rage. Keep in mind that sundering armor gets less important if the armor of the boss fighten is low or the ArP of your melees is high.

 

Furrymaker

Pretty sure that sunders become more important at that point since armor pen scales in a near exponential way. As the armor is reduced closer to zero the value of armor pen becomes way higher.

 

hellord

This is not exactly true. Sunder armor provides more or less the same relative damage increase from 0 to 100% ArP.

EDIT: Adding some math

Boss base armor: 10643
DR: 10643/(10643+15232.5) = ~41.1%

Armor after sunders: 8514
DR: 8514/(8514+15232.5) = ~35.9%

~8.8% damage increase

With 50% ArP
DR no sunders: (10643 - 8625*0.5)/(10643 - 8625*0.5 + 15232.5) = 6331/(6331+15232.5) = ~29.4%
DR with sunders: (8514 - 7916*0.5)/(8514 - 7916*0.5 + 15232.5) = 4556/(4556+15232.5) = ~23%

~9% damage increase

with 100% ArP
DR no sunders: (10643 - 8625)/(10643 - 8625 + 15232.5) = ~11.7%
DR with sunders: (8514 - 7916)/(8514 - 7916 + 15232.5) = ~3.8%

~9% damage increase

(ArP is always calculated on a value equal to (Armor+15232.5)/3)

ArP Whore

 

Kaan

That's wrong. Enemys of the boss level have all the same armor as far as I know. ArP has no negative effect on the efficiency of Sunder Armor. It's the opposite: the efficiency of Sunder Armor goes up a bit the more ArP you have. Try the spreadsheet.

 

Coeus

No Hunters, either. My understanding was that if the fight was under a minute, it was worth it for Rogues to use Expose instead of an Arms using Sunder (not that it matters since we don't have any).

I've been replacing Slams with Sunder every 25s or so to maintain, but I wasn't convinced this was the best way to get the initial stack built since that takes so long due to lack of Slam GCDs (based on SD procs).

 

PsyWulf

Which bossfights last 1minute? :P Admittedly rogues can build combo points and then Expose if its a short fight,sub1min it would be acceptable imo. I'm fury atm and I find it easy to work sunders into my rotation as a spare rage dump between BT/WW gcds however

*Edit - As Arms I never interrupted my main rotation but used spare Slam GCDs to start stacking sunder

 

• landsoul

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW

 

raehza

Can someone confirm this? I never knew that Demo Shouts were able to reduce incoming damage by 20%...?


Source:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Class Q&A Series: Warrior


From posts I have seen on this FOrum, Imp. Demo Shout overall decreases incoming damage by 1-2% and not 20%.

 

levk

They just made that up.

Regardless all demo discussions are moot since as of 3.2 a ret pally will provide it for his 2 talent points and no gcd wasted.

 

Chirality

This might have been true back in TBC, if you were comparing Boss+CurseOfRecklessness to Boss+CurseOfRecklessness+ImprovedDemoShout(5/5) or just Boss+ImprovedDemoShout(1/5), but that was almost exclusively due to how Curse of Recklessness worked back then.

I find the entire statement of the "50% damage on the (special attack)" to be very odd.

 

Tessa

It has to do with the way that some instant attacks are done by bosses; they do a flat multiplier of regular damage rather than weapon damage + a flat amount (Like say, mortal strike.) In this way the demo shout attack reduction is also multiplied; this is most memorable with Unbalancing strike from Twin Emperors. However, the amount of AP reduction by demo shout has merely doubled from level 60, while I would suggest that the average health of tanks and the average hits from a raid boss has increased somewhat more than that. Hence, I think that their findings of 20% less damage are dated.

 

elmooncrack

Im wondering if i should continue to stack ArP when im at about 40% on tooltip when i put my mouse over hit. Now i am mac spec so does that 15% add into the ArP and my 10% from battle. if not ill be at 65% passive and then grim toll will pull me over. Would it be worth it to continue like this or no?

 

Hisdon

that much armorpen is gonna put you at a really low SEP value in the spreadsheet, so I'd advise gemming other stats like STR.

 

rbbrdckybk

While Demo Shout doesn't provide a 20% reduction, it is certainly still significant. Our DPS Warrior forgot to put Demo Shout up for a couple of our Vejax 10 attempts last week - here are two log parses of the same fight, with and without Demo Shout:

Tank damage taken without Demo Shout (average hit: 16.5K)

Tank damage taken with Demo Shout up (average hit: 14.7K)

The average hit our tank took from Vejax went from about 16,500 to 14,700 after our warrior started applying Demo Shout. That is about a 12% reduction - quite a bit less than Blizzard's estimate, but certainly still worth using on any boss that melees for a significant amount.

 

Glory

Did he specc improved Demoshout?

 

Cortic

To add to this conversation - our guild has been stuck on Thorim hard mode for a couple of weeks now. After reading the outrageous "50% less dmg with imp. demo shout" statement made by the devs i decided id spec 5/5 into it and take a small dps hit (we got him in about 4 attempts ).

Comparing WWS parses from the previous weeks of attempts and last week I concluded that comparing baseline demo shout to the 5/5 demo shout, our tanks took an average of 5k less dmg on normal melee swings and 10k dmg on Unbalancings. Here is the actual post I made on our guild forums:

Without 5/5 Demo Shout

Melee Swing on *********

Avg 14,403
Max 16,744


Unbalancing Strike on ********

Avg 24,489
Max 33,640


With 5/5 Demo Shout

Melee Swing on ********

Avg 9,635
Max 25,303


Unbalancing Strike on ********

Avg 15,762
Max 28,370



NOW to ask a question for myself, according to Landsouls Spreadsheet, HS should be amounting around 7.5% of my DPS and Slam around 6%. Now currently they are sitting around 5% HS and 8% Slam. At which point is it optimal to queue up a HS? I have been trying to queue it up when I hit 80 rage but this is leaving me rage starved sometimes.

 

rbbrdckybk

I should have clarified - no, the warrior in the example log I provided was not spec'd improved demo shout. With the talent, the damage reduction might very well approach the -20% that Blizzard claims.

Edit: Cortic's post above this one certainly supports this. In fact, looking at Cortic's numbers, Blizzard's claim of a 20% reduction looks fairly conservative.

 

tur1n

Could you post the logs Cortic? Your numbers are somewhat extreme. The -140 AP from imp. Demoshout reduce Thorims average melee hit by a whopping 5k or 33%. I find that hard to believe.

Especially since:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Recent In-Game Fixes - 7/7/09

Both of these changes may have inflated your numbers.

 

Gustu

Been arms for most of ulduar, however been noticing fury starting to take over the warrior score boards again, thinking this has to do with all the hard mode loot people have started to gather. With 3.2 hitting and even higher item level gear coming, will arms be able to stay competitive?

 

Speeder

I plugged my gear into landsoul spreadsheet and it showed around 300 dps advantage in favor of fury. Adding higher AOE potential, more forgiving playstyle it seems fury is starting to give higher results than Arms.

peace MK

 

Gustu

Yeah noticed it in landsoul's spreadsheet as well, currently arms mostly because the ferals want trama, but if fury going to start blowing arms out of the water again, then might be worth it to switch back.

 

Healranktwo

nevermind

 

waverns

i have a terrible time doing the dps i am capable of. i am in full valor gear and some conquer gear. but yet i cant keep dps steadily above 3.5 sometimes even 3k. everyone i know thats arms warrior less geared than me and doing over 4k?? so i ask what am i doing wrong? I am just tired of not doing what i am capable of.
rotation is as follows
rend
execute on sudden death
overpower
bladestorm with trinket
MS
slam
slam with HS if everything on CD
sunder x5

i am in battle stance, then i was told to do berserker stance and try
AA-slam
MS
AA-Slam
WW
AA-Slam
MS
AA-Slam

still coming up short. My spec is 54 arms 17 fury atm
my glyphs are MS,Execute,Rending,Bloodrage,Enduring Victory, Battle
The World of Warcraft Armory
there is a link to my armory if anyone has any thoughts on what i can do to improve be very appreicated, I am a die hard warrior player i want to be best at what i do as one.

 

Jone

Bosses have always gotten more DPS per AP than players. Tank focused threads have more info on this, but the data from tankspot show that untalented demo shout is worth ~10%, talented is worth ~15% off a boss's white melee. Whether this affects specials or not varies between bosses.