Do0mbringer

The only way I can really see mace spec being usable is if the 15% armor reduction is pre-debuffs. If thats the case then I can see it being very comparable to poleaxe spec. Does anyone know which one it is? pre-debuff or post-debuff?

Clarifying: By debuffs I mean sunder, farie fire etc. I know armor pen is after those, but is mace spec as well?

 

Gorrog666

The problem at the moment is that there aren't any good weapons available for off-hand slot. Weapon spec with dual-wield is still important. I'm an Orc myself and the obvious choice would be a fast axe, the problem though is that the only fast axes are tank weapons or to be more honest the best tanking weapon that drops from Kel 25. And, I think I'd get killed if I take that for DPS.
On a sidenote though, does anyone know if weapon specs stack? So, if I have a mace in the off-hand and an axe in the main-hand and I have both weapon specs do I get the -15% armor reduction on my axe too or just the off-hand?

 

Furrymaker

After 3.0 hit I tried dual weapon spec dual wield arms and they didn't stack for me. I would not get sword spec procs in either MH or OH, nor did my crit go up with the axe in either hand. I've heard others say it worked for them, maybe my experience was just a bug that has since been corrected.

Also am I correct in that OH crits no longer triggers MH deep wounds damage? Regardless of this it seems to me that both a fast MH and OH is ideal to maximize sudden death procs and ensure rage for executes every GCD possible. With MS normalized MH speed should be irrelevant for everything except overpower, slam (probably not used for this build), and heroic strike. With execute being the prevalent source of damage for this build it seems like a good trade off.

 

blindsniper

I didn't know that sudden death leaves you with 10 rage left. But can someone go into more detail about why is it a bad idea to spam execute (non SD) under 20%? Is it beneficial to just follow the normal rotation?

I've been spamming execute along with OP and it's been working out well for me.

 

Furrymaker

It's a bad idea to spam non SD executes because unless timed right before a white attack it will leave you waiting until the next attack before you can do anything else. To maximize damage you want to use an ability every GCD and not sit stagnant waiting for rage. SD executes leave you enough rage to refresh rend or overpower. I believe this was covered earlier in the thread. Much like arms pre 3.0 your best damage will come from continuing your rotation sub 20%.

 

Brgid

Wouldn't a fast MH significantly lower your Deep Wounds damage? I wondered about weapon switching to two fast sub 20% but back-of-napkin calculation had me losing more DW damage than i gained in Execute damage ...?

 

Shha

I tried dual wield arms and it seemed pretty scary. I mean it wasnt quite up there with 2h arms and TG, however:

- It was done with a blue axe from sons of hodir and the brutalizer from black temple. Granted there is huge lack of fast axes in game (and axes in general) - offhand does have an option of arena weapon, but for MH only fast axe would be KT one with tanking stats. IF they give us a good weapon for it, the dps could really skyrocket. It seems that the bug with OH mace spec giving MH armor pen is there, but I havent done full conclusive testing yet.

DPS was just about 10% below 2h arms, and 20-30% below TG - now take into account:

- DW arms is only spec to scale very well with haste. Haste = more hits = more executes, so basically 90% of your damage is affected by haste. That puts haste about the same as hit which:

- DW arms basically gets same value for hit until WHITE hit cap, because you dont use heroic strike. More whites = more executes = more dps. Hit is scaling as pre-yellow cap for other specs

- DW arms has highest direct damage component , so it gets most out of ArP

- DW arms scales the best with crit or equal to other specs due to axe spec etc.

- DW arms scales "longer" with expertise then other specs due to higher cap.

- DW arms scales about same as 2h Arms and a bit slower with AP then TG.

Overall though DW arms is the fastest scaling warrior spec - you can say its an "end-game" spec, when you can actually get a set that hast loads of haste, 20% extra hit, and loads of crit /arp. With the way gear inflation goes in wrath (which is pretty crazy - im already getting close to my sunwell hit/crit/exp stats WHILE stacking AP/ArP as TG - and its FIRST tier of wotlk gear - i can see TG warriors having 60% unbuffed crit at this rate in icecrown) - this spec might pull ahead eventually

 

Ronen

I seem to be having trouble getting to 35% Crit Unbuffed....Am i doing something wrong?

 

Ariakis_Uther

The secret I've discovered until you get the really good naxx gear is leather, agility + crit + expertise on a lot of gear.

 

BlacKcuD

Heroic strike:

Heroic strike isn't useless or "pathetic" like mentioned above. There are just very few occasions to use it while playing arms in pve.
If your rage is 75-full then try throwing some out, especially if sudden death has just procced.

Trash:
If you cannot clear naxx in one night, because your arms warrior cannot run maximum dps while clearing trash then there is definitely something wrong with your other dps classes in your raid :-)

 

Gorrog666

For just a second let us be honest about something. We just don't cut it at the moment. Considering that the Fury buff is around the corner and that with enought Naxx-IDs there's enough people showing up with decent gear it remains a joke what kind of DPS Arms is delivering. Just visit WWS and pop in "Patchwerk", look at the top 5, or for that matter 10, 25, or 50 kills, and you'll be searching for top Arms warriors for awhile. The highest Patchwerk DPS for Arms that I've found was 3991 and that is far from that of other DPS classes. Even if you tag along plentiful of melee DPS for Blood Frenzy you will almost never make up any DPS that fury isn't already delivering through superior DPS. On the other hand if you don't have the melee DPS to back you up then you will just end up being a low DPS supporter. I've always preferred to play Arms over Fury because I've found it more challenging and more fun and I doubt I will bow to Fury. I just don't understand it and maybe someone can explain to me what Blizzard is thinking because it seems playing Arms isn't worth playing anymore whatsoever.

 

Hamburglar

Sadly I have to agree with Gorrog here. Tried out arms again tonight on sart 25 and I banged into a wall at aprox 3.5k dps. Fair enough, Im not hitting rock bottom, but Im nowhere NEAR my fury-dps either, and bloodfrenzy doesnt contribute enough. Granted, I was running 43ish crit buffed, and you could argue this was the problem. Then again, I dont really know. It just feels like too much gear-dependency to effectively do damage. With fury I can pretty much cruise to insane damage as soon as I have some damage inc, but as arms you`re capped by rage, crit, incoming damage and your head actually having to ponder your next moves.

I love arms, and whenever our combatrogue isnt present I respec arms and screw around with it, but I cant for the love of all thats sacred even touch my fury-dps. Its sad, but thats just how it is. So lets just hope for some blizz-love, or accept that fury is the ONE build to have for pve.

 

Gorrog666

Good News, good news. I also kept banging my head and finally tried something totally new. Here's the WWS from Patchwerk, or better yet from our entire run today. I'd say Patchwerk is most relevant in terms of DPS.

Wow Web Stats

I hit 4493 with around 60k, including myself, melee raid DPS which is another 1.1k DPS through Blood Frenzy.

The thing that I changed and which you might notice right away is that I totally disregarded Execute. I changed my rotation to the following, or at least I tried to run this rotation.

MS
Slam
Slam
Slam
MS
Slam
Slam
Slam
and so on...

you can swap a Slam for a Rend when it runs out. I essentially tried to do what Beastmaster Hunters do, just spam Slam on every GCD, MS on CD since it's more damage than Slam and Rend when it runs out since 6 Rend ticks with an average of 1k dmg will net more damage per GCD than a Slam crit and an MS crit. At this point I really think that the Phases after Executes and between Swings cost us the most DPS. Focusing more on the GCDs nets more DPS unless you know how to handle Sudden Death. I have yet to find a good swing timer that would allow me to add Execute to my rotation again. The problem is that most still reset the Swing timer with Slam which is not good at all. A well set Execute should be followed up with a white hit when the GCD from the Execute runs out so you can Slam again right away. This is the KEYPOINT to greater DPS.

Here's my Armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Glyphs that I used were:
Rend
Hamstring
Overpower
..., obviously this is the part where there is a lot more to gain. I had these glyphs in because of PVP and with the MS glyph and maybe Execute you can gain even more DPS.


Since it's a little different from the most rotations that I've tried before I wasn't able to do my rotation perfectly and I'm certain that there is more damage to be pulled out if you run your MS, 3xSlam rotation perfectly.

Other fights that were somewhat decent were:
Grand Widow 4695 DPS
Gluth 4153 DPS
Sapphiron 3628 DPS
Kel'Thuzad 3607 DPS


I think this is beginning to become some decent DPS, even for an Arms warrior and maybe it's not so bad afterall. I'll try to get some more WWS logs next sunday and I'll try to get my rotation a little bit more solid, because I probably didn't keep MS on CD at all times and such. Feel free to give me your insights and some feedback.

 

Hamburglar

Im really hyped by seeing this, Gorrog. Firstly, thanks for keep testing this out! It really helps to have someone in damn good gear trying out stuff.

So, to your rotation, and the general idea. Do you think the problem is that we`re just not good enough to pull off SD execs timed with white-hits/crits to keep rageflow? I was reading about the GCD on exec, and started pondering about executing right before a white-hit. Ill try to check it out myself, but is it possible that our white doesnt go through if we dont execute at least 1.5 before the white will hit? I get sd alot, and I execute alot and I feel ragestarved like crazy. Ill have a go at looking into this.

Also, I agree with you about swingtimers. Ive been using quartz, but it still resets after a slam, not delaying, which is annoying. Also, when slamming, do you even care about the swingtimer? I still try to time them to right after a white, but Im not really sure it makes a difference any more.

Anyhow, great work! 4.5 @ patch is really nice. Ill spec up my arms again today if there will be any raiding, and test out some more, without exec this time or just with another way of doing them.

 

Tankietka

At last someone that does not go blindly for Execute big numbers :-). Good results you are seeing can be from the fact that Slamming allows for more effective GCD usage.

As for Execute, according to my calculations and simulations, the best effects I get when I Execute below 25 rage. Maybe the sweet point can change with gear, but major principle is common for everyone: SD-Execute below 25 rage is better than Slam as it leaves you with 10 rage whereas after Slam with <25 rage you will have less than that.

Probably Executing could be optimized still by trying to Execute with more rage but just before white hit, but in my opinion it's quite risky with lag, human reaction time etc.

 

Stuntspike

Nvm, must have had a lucky streak last night, forget any of that.

Changing WoW one MS at a time.

 

Gorrog666

The theory behind my rotation is as follows. If you do not have any swing bars and your not good enough to perfectly time your Execute you might end up with something like this:

Assuming a 3.0 Swing Timer

0.0 sec. - White Hit
0.1 sec. - Execute (you have 10 Rage), you crit for 10k
3.0 sec. - White Hit (10 Rage + Rage from this White Hit), lets say you have at least 15 Rage now
3.1 sec. - Possible Slam

In this case if you didn't have the need to refresh Rend or an Overpower proc you basically sit around for 3 seconds doing nothing. This is the part where you loose huge DPS. Eventhough the Execute did crit for 10k it came also at a huge cost of Rage. The Execute should net something around 3.3k DPS for those 3 seconds besides the white damage which is not bad afterall. Now if you consider the same scenario with Slam:

0.0 sec. - White Hit
0.1 sec. - Slam 2.4k non-crit, 5.6k crit
1.6 sec. - Slam 2.4k non-crit, 5.6k crit
3.0 sec. - White Hit
3.1 sec. - Possible Slam or MS

So, what does this mean? A 10k Execute crit is far more expensive than 2 Slams, my guess would be around 70-80 Rage but that is only a guess. Two Slams on the other hand only cost 30 Rage, these Slams on a double crit will grant more Deep Wounds damage and when both crit can provide something around 11.2k damage which is greater DPS than a high Rage Execute. I took the average Slam damage from my WWS. Now if you can add Execute into this rotation without loosing ANY GCD you win. This is the DPS we are looking for, the combination of perfect use of Sudden Death and the perfect use of EVERY GCD. Your priority list should be not according to abilities but about your max. damage ability that will not screw up your next GCD.

Currently I use LD50 swing bar since it shows your GCD in the swing bar and it doesn't reset your swing timer with Slam. The only thing that bothers me is that it has a cast bar for your Slam which hides your swing timer when you use your Slam. Also, I usually just spam Slam and use MS and Rend in between, your white hits should land between your Slams without any problems.

The big thing about this rotation is though that it is easy. It's simple, you can't really screw up a lot and it should net you decent DPS.

 

Healranktwo

Slam has a hidden rage cost.

Remember that every time you use slam, you are delaying your swing timer by .5 seconds, essentially lowering the amount of white swings you get a fight, which in turn reduces the amount of rage gained over the fight.

While slam is the best spammable move in terms of damage per RAGE, it's not the best damage per SECOND move, especially if you factor in the damage we lose from our white swing by delaying it.

You are right in that using SD straight away is not a good idea either. I feel like arms DPS has to be thought of as blocks, with our swing being the one that divides our blocks up, and each individual block affecting the DPS of the next.

Ex. You have a swing timer of 3.0 seconds. Let's say you get about 25 rage on average from a non crit, and 50+ rage on a crit swing.

Let's say you have 35 rage and you just had a white swing. This gives you two GCDs to fill before your next swing. Obviously, you want to slam twice over MS. Simple.

Now, a harder example. Let's say you have 45 rage and you just had a swing. You can slam twice, or MS + slam. MS + slam will net you .5 extra cast time on your white swing, and more damage obviously. Regardless of what you do, you will swing after it. Here's the tough part. Due to your prior decision, if you do not crit your white hit, you will only be able to do one slam, meaning you lost DPS because of your MS + slam earlier, OR if you crit, you can continue your rotation, and actually gained DPS over using slam twice.

If you factor OP and SD in, it gets even more complicated. OP has an additional 50% chance to crit, which is great, and it's also our best damage per RAGE move by far. Overpower however, is also our weakest move when it does not crit, or when we use MS/SD/Slam and those crit.

SD is by far our most complicated move, and it affects our DPS the most. While SD does leave us with 10 rage, it is our highest damage per SECOND move by far (with 20 rage or so), no exceptions. It is also however, our worse damage per RAGE move past the initial 10 rage cost. If you can spam execute every GCD, you are doing the most possible DPS a warrior can do. However, that doesn't happen of course. Using up SD is the best way to go, because if you hold it for too long, you risk losing SD procs when they do come up. However, you don't want to use it and be left with a GCD that you can't use on anything, that hurts your DPS. So we come back to the swing timer again. Ideally, the best possible situation is to use MS then SD in between swings, because that nets the best damage possible with a "block".

This is why the blocks part is important. Every block, while affecting the DPS of the next, has to be thought of a separate entity.

I think arms DPS is built around the player's capacity to make a decision over whether to pick the best damage per rage move or the best damage per second move in between every swing we have. I also think it's the biggest reason why a lot of warriors just can't get it to work because it's not as easy as just pressing SD/OP/MS/Slam when it's up.

Slam is a move we have to spam ultimately, but it's always a better idea to use MS, overpower, and SD over it, especially if your GCDs aren't interrupted using MS or SD.

You will notice your DPS being a lot better if you follow these 3 things:

1) you are using every GCD without fail.

2) you are slamming less while doing #1

3) ideal use of SD

This is IMO, anyway.

 

Shha

I think overall the choices arent that complicated. Most of the time you get more then 25 rage in realm of 35/70 so your example with slam/ms is not really working. SD is easy enough - just make sure to use it when you need to refresh rend or you have OP in a SD-> OP/Rend combo. Very rarely you cant wait long enough - and then you can just do SD->Rend anyway , probably losing ~2 ticks of rend on average. If the boss is not tauntable as patchwerk and hopefully most *harder* bosses, you also have a Mocking Blow as an "oh shit move" and bloodrage->Slam after SD.


Another thing is with the whole idea of "continue your rotation under 20%". I think its wrong, simple as that.

With a 3.4 speed BOH and 15% innate haste you look at :

3.4 (1.3(heroism)*1.06(BF)*1.03(Moonkin/ret)*1.2(WF)*1.15 (Haste) = 1.73 swing timer. It means you CAN execute every 1.73 sec in worst case. In fact the average is higher because:

- Speed potion gives you 15 sec of faster swings
- Every SD proc guarantees an execute next GCD around once per 5 executes.

Overall assuming 40 sec duration of under-20%/heroism it gives you average of 1.62-1.63 delay between executes. It seems better then trying to squeeze in every gcd with slams. Less then 10% gcds are lost, and executes are higher dmg then slam/ms by a lot. Then you also dont lose white dmg from slams.

 

Hamburglar

Just went on a respec-spree to ponder a bit on targetdummies here. I came up with some numbers Im actually quite happy with.
Basically, I did 2k dps on the highest-level targetdummy in Orgimmar. As a comparison, I did 1400ish without taste for blood (pvp arms-spec) and with no ld50-swingtimer.

Now, I feel that this number isnt half-bad. I had battleshout and that was it. What I noticed tho, was that I was starved from time to time, not being able to use both my gcds before another white. Now and then I would be stuck at at 17-23 rage, not being able to do two slams, not having an overpower to use etc. Basically, I suspect you want a white-crit and at least 45 rage before you do a mortalstrike, just to have enough rage to keep it going with a slam, white unlucky hit and two slams / something.

Anyhow, if someone else would take their time and hit the dummy for a couple of minutes, that would be nice as well. Kinda interested in seeing the differences in what we do most of our damage from.

My recount reports:

1. Slam - 21.8% dmg
2. Deep wounds 21.2% dmg
3. Melee - 20.4% dmg
4. Mortal Strike - 9.4% dmg
5. Rend - 9.2% dmg
6. Overpower - 9.1% dmg
7. Execute - 7.7% dmg
8. Whirlwind 1.1% dmg

I didnt whirlwind on every cd. Im actually confused about why it shows, because I cant remember having used it. Im also not good enough at using trinks / orc racial, so I see more potential in this.

Hope we can somehow compare results and somehow try to figure out even clearer what we should and shouldnt do, when to MS, when to 2-slam etc.

 

Ariakis_Uther

I ran a quick test on the level 80 practice dummy last night. I didn't use bladestorm, I charged, used battle shout and rend and then started the normal rotation and went until battle shout wore off 5 mins later. One of the tests I didn't use execute when it procced off sudden death, I ran around 2000 dps. The next time I did the same thing except I used executes on sudden death procs and I ran at 2360 dps.

I noticed a few of the people talking about being rage starved and not using sudden death executes didn't appear to have the 40% crit on their armory profiles. Between our last raid and now I've worked pretty hard to get up to 40% unbuffed crit. I should find out tomorrow how it does but at this point I'm going to be using the sudden death procs because they don't seem to starve me for rage when it seems a crit is just around the corner most of the time.

I am still curious about the best approach < 20% health.

 

Hamburglar

Just went through your armory and took a peek. Sure you used the hardest dummy? You do more damage than me with 300ish ap less etc. It could be down to me being useless, but then again, Im not quite sure you picked the highest level dummy.

Come 20% less, Im not sure myself. Going to check it out later, and wait for the dummy to have no hp left, as it mostly is in OG atm. Frustrating because of less rend-damage (which could explain some of your higher output?) but I guess its nice to ponder about the cycle. Executes are by far the easiest, especially if we`re in a mobile fight. Im still having nightmares trying to stitch together a cycle combined with running around like a headless chicken watching for flamewalls, green stuff and other horrible means of screwing my up and letting the furywarrior cruise in with his facerolling to victory.

 

Ariakis_Uther

I wasn't using the heroic dummy but instead the level 80 dummy. I went back and did it again and was only getting 1650-1700 then I re-read your post and started only using MS if my rage was > 45. This bumped me up to 1900-1950. So that looks like an excellent find.

 

ljl

Here are a couple of 5-10 minute parses from the 83 raid dummy:

Base stats (as from armory): 3.12speed, 2894ap, 287 hit, 38.62% crit, 17 exp. Ability columns are ability name, count (or ticks in the case of rend/deep wounds), total damage done, percent of total damage done. Breakdown lines are hit, crit, glancing, dodge; columns are min, avg, max, count, percent. Unfortunately I didn't have time to get the whirlwind and overpower stats from the second run.

The basic strategy for both runs is to maximize GCD usage. I only used SD procs if I was at or beneath 25 rage, with a few exceptions in the 25-30 range. Any execute at higher rage was an error due to mistiming my white swing. SD procs under 25 rage were the highest priority. If a 25-or-less-SD wasn't available, TfB proc took the next highest priority. If neither of the above were available, I used slam. If I had enough rage to where I feared the next hit would put me over 100 rage, I used MS.

As for bladestorm, I find it to be extremely important on these dummy dps tests. Since we're hitting on a fully armored 83 raid target and are not raid buffed, we've got much less rage generation than we expect in a 25 man (or even 10 man) setting. Bladestorming allows 6 seconds of 2k+ dps for only 25 rage, while at the same time allowing white hits to continue and generate rage. I don't try to time bladestorms with any sort of procs--I just try to make sure I'll have rend up for the full duration, don't have any pending TfB procs, and don't have more than 40 rage going into the bladestorm (because during the bladestorm I expect 2 hits and an average of 50ish rage; but 2 crits would quickly cause me to waste rage). A quick DPS calculation will follow the readout.


2142.8 DPS, time: 6'46" = 406s (7:27:05-7:33:51)
1. slam 121 219020 25.0%

1145 1258 1479 78 64.5%
2618 3023 3397 40 33.1%
---- ---- ---- 3 2.5%

2. deep wounds 313 188151 21.5%

169 601 1431 313 100.0%

3. melee 110 148528 16.9%

881 995 1164 41 37.3%
1820 2131 2585 39 35.5%
624 745 935 30 27.3%

4. rend 117 96598 11.0%

659 826 928 117 100.0%

5. overpower 45 95858 10.9%

875 984 1140 7 15.6%
2115 2341 2725 38 84.4%

6. execute 27 83188 9.5%

1633 2014 3143 14 51.9%
4290 5000 5948 11 40.7%
- - - 2 7.4%

7. whirlwind 28 41408 4.7%

882 945 1055 17 60.7%
2089 2303 2569 11 39.3%

8. mortal strike 1 3735 0.4%

3735 3735 3735 1 100.0%

GCD utilization: 121 slams + 117/6 rends + 45 overpowers + 27 executes + 4 bladestorms + 1 MS = 121 + 20 + 45 + 27 + 4*4 + 1 = 230 GCDs. A 406s fight length expects 270 GCDs, so I'm at 85% utilization here.

So with 4 bladestorms each lasting 6 seconds, we've got 24 seconds of bladestorm (41408/24 = 1725 DPS). Considering that white attacks continue during the storm, we can estimate 2 attacks per storm doing an average of 148528/110 = 1350 damage per attack. So over the 4 storms we have 8 white hits adding 1350*8 = 10800 damage to the 24 second period. So a good estimate of bladestorm DPS (for my character) is about (41408 + 10800)/24 = 2175 DPS. I don' t think it's a good idea to neglect bladestorm usage on these dummy test fights as they generally leave me with 20 or more seconds of 100% GCD utilization due to the rage generated during the storm.


Here's another parse where my luck goes bad and my melee crit rate amortizes at 28.8%, which is about 7% lower than expected (and, from memory, my overpower crit rate was at a dismal 78%: about as bad as the melee rate). This results in much less rage generated (it's obvious that I never got to the 80+ rage range, because I have 0 mortal strikes).

1976.3 DPS, time: 4'54" = 294s (7:21:02-7:25:56)
1. slam 85 155027 26.5%

1058 1280 1547 53 62.4%
2604 3006 3584 29 34.1%
- - - 3 3.5%

2. deep wounds 216 114810 19.6%

169 532 1391 216 100.0%

3. melee 80 98096 16.8%

804 984 1155 33 41.3%
1920 2158 2565 23 28.8%
592 726 932 22 27.5%
---- ---- ---- 2 2.5%

4. rend 88 79062 13.5%

622 898 1005 88 100.0%

5. overpower 28 57491 9.8%
6. execute 17 50775 8.7%
7. whirlwind 21 30247 5.2%

GCD utilization: 85 slams + 88/6 rends + 28 overpowers + 17 executes + 3 bladestorms = 85 + 15 + 28 + 17 + 3*4 = 157 GCDs. The 294s fight expects 196 GCDs, so I've got an 80% GCD utilization.

 

Ephrael

This evening I set out to test the 53/8/11 build with the heroic strike glyph (10 rage on heroic strike crit)

First thing I did however was test out the Heroic Test Dummy to see if their miss/dodge rate was proper to a raid boss. I did this in increments of 400 hits per test. As a Draenei I did take in account my 1% hit and the 1% expertise from Strength of Arms.

400 White hits with no hit/expertise
8.8% miss
5.3% dodged

400 Yellow hits with no hit/expertise
9% miss
7% dodged

400 Yellow hits with 9% hit and 5.5% expertise
0 misses
1.8% dodged

I think those numbers would become much more reliable with more testing. I don't think 400 hits was enough to get the proper percents, but they are with in the ballpark.

Onto the DPS checks, each was done in 5 minute intervals and done 3 times with an avrage of the DPS for the 3 attempts. No buffs were used.

Basic 53/18/0 rotation
Average - 1692 DPS

53/18/0 spec using only MS and Slam while keeping Rend up
Average- 1586

53/8/11 build with the heroic strike glyph, full Rotation
Average- 1403 DPS

53/8/11 build with the heroic strike glyph, Not using Sudden Death or Bladestorm
Average- 1288 DPS

53/8/11 build with the heroic strike glyph, Not using SD but adding in Bladestorm
Average- 1455 DPS

I believe the main thing that hindered the Heroic strike test is my lack of crit (only at 30%). I see some potential in the spec with the glyph if (with the talent incite) you can achieve 55% crit or more with heroic strike. If one of you axe specked warriors or ones in the 40% crit range would like to give it a shot i'd like to see the numbers.