I'm almost sure that the Sudden Death nerfs made Dual-wield arms not viable, but has anyone tried it out with good gear recently? I keep trying to put together a talent build with Sudden Death and I come up with something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
Assuming post 3.1, you'd DPS in Battle stance, using fast weapons to maximize SD procs and keeping rend up and overpowering/HSing to burn excess rage. I do not have the gear to test this out, otherwise I'd try it myself. Any thoughts on the viability of this or similar builds?
There were only a couple of very brief posts about this from what I could see, so I thought I would throw one in.
I sat testing this for a few hours one day. The best spec for this would be full arms but a little different on the fury tree. Such as this The World of Warcraft Armory.
Now this of course is sword spec(because there are a ton more swords than maces and axes) and not perfect. There is no reason to keep going down deeper into fury. One reason, Getting one or two points into Flurry is pretty pointless when Blood Frenzy is giving you 10% static. Also passing up nearly a static 10% dmg boost isn't a real good idea either.
Now truthfully, I personally found myself doing more dmg dual-wielding swords than building my spec around two-handed mace/axe(yes I tried both with Ironsoul, Stormedge, and Death's Bite).
The way that dual-wield arms is, you have to completely build yourself around execute. Reason being, you are hitting a hell of a lot more so you are getting many, many, many more SD procs that you do using a two-hander. Execute being completely based on AP your wep dmg is pointless. With this you pretty much have to get the execute glyph if you didn't already have it and I debated specing into imp execute but you are really never at a loss of rage doing this.
The whole reason this works at all is because of how fast you swing. The rotation on it is very different because you have slam but truthfully it's a last resort that you may just heroic strike instead over. The rotation is so different because everything is really just a supplement to SD. SD is up so often that at times you can just be using it every global CD. The reason I didn't spend all the points in imp MS is because it is very low on the totem pole in your rotation. The jist of what you do with this is Rend, SD, OP, MS, Slam, HS, always using SD when it is up, keeping rend up, and OPing when that is up.
Now this is really different and it actually even works with sword spec(extra attack, extra SD proc chance...I think..lol). The rotation really is a pain because you have to pay so much attention to your procs because you are completely dependent on them, but if you can get it down, you actually do a ton of dmg. When the boss gets to 20% this is amazing considering you can literally execute every GCD because your rage build is fast enough. I haven't checked what my dps at that point is, but I'm sure it's pretty amazing hitting upwards of 8-12k crits every GCD.
I would love to have someone that has done some more accurate number crunching tell me what they think and hear what everyone else has to say about it.
I just did some theory-testing with this concept in Rawr, trying a BiS with each build using the same outside influences (virtually unbuffed)
Your DW-SD build topped out at 2800 dps while all the other builds (normal cookie cutters for arms and fury) all topped out around 3500. So while, yes, this could have been something to test it looks like it just isn't capable of keeping up.
This concept is something that many warriors have struggled with since the dawn of Expertise. The fact of the matter is, the OP proc off of the additional dodges that occur DOES NOT make up for the damage lossed by your abilities dodging. To prove this point:
Normally, with yourself Expertise Capped:
GCD 1: Mortal Strike 2xxx Damage on Hit (Could also have crit for even more damage)
GCD 2: Slam 2xxx Damage on Hit
Total: 4xxx Damage on both hits
But in your suggested situation:
GCD 1: Mortal Strike 'Dodged' 0 Damage on Hit (Can't have crit because it didn't land)
GCD 1: Overpower 25xx Damage on Hit
Total: 25xx Damage on both hits
You simply cannot do enough damage with that Overpower to make up for the previous ability's loss.
While you are right about not being able to make up for the damage lost it is still possible to compensate for the dodge. To make things simple let us assume white hits, because those are easier to compare to OP.
So let's assume the WH was dodge which is a loss of 2000 damage. So instead of doing a Slam you follow up with an OP. Since OP is fully skilled and the average warrior has plenty of crit and luck we'll just assume you have a guaranteed crit on your OP, and I'm sure there are warriors with 50% crit raid buffed.
so:
WH 1: Dodged
OP: 2000*1.2(Unrelenting Assault)*2.2(Crit with Impale skilled)=5280
Total: 5280 Damage
Considering this example you might actually get lucky and do more damage after all. It all depends on the ability that was dodged. While a non-crit white hit, which you will never know if it was in fact a non-crit, might be easy to compensate with OP a hard hitting MS might be not so easy to compensate. I think this is one of the reasons why I never really cared too much about expertise. You will never always make up all the damage lost through an OP but there are times where it is possible to do more and it is actually possible to compensate. A rogue or DK for example is not able to do this. I think we both picked examples that benefit our argument. In the end I'd have to agree that this is not a perfect solution but after looking over each calculation I am more then ever confident that I will not go crazy about being expertise capped anymore.
I just did some theory-testing with this concept in Rawr, trying a BiS with each build using the same outside influences (virtually unbuffed)
Your DW-SD build topped out at 2800 dps while all the other builds (normal cookie cutters for arms and fury) all topped out around 3500. So while, yes, this could have been something to test it looks like it just isn't capable of keeping up.
Your problem is that you are using Rawr. Rawr looks at it as a normal arms spec with a normal arms rotation. The DW spec does not have a normal spec and has a very very different rotation. I have looked at that also, and I demolished the dps it told me I could do. Rawr does not have enough customization to be able to test builds that are not normal or default. The number crunching I would like to see is someone using in-game stats with WWS or something more intuitive than that. I can see for myself that I straight up do more dmg on a normal little dmg meter using many many many different rotations on both sides, dual-wielding and single wielding. I just want to know if someone has done a little more extensive research than me.
While you are right about not being able to make up for the damage lost it is still possible to compensate for the dodge. To make things simple let us assume white hits, because those are easier to compare to OP.
So let's assume the WH was dodge which is a loss of 2000 damage. So instead of doing a Slam you follow up with an OP. Since OP is fully skilled and the average warrior has plenty of crit and luck we'll just assume you have a guaranteed crit on your OP, and I'm sure there are warriors with 50% crit raid buffed.
so:
WH 1: Dodged
OP: 2000*1.2(Unrelenting Assault)*2.2(Crit with Impale skilled)=5280
Total: 5280 Damage
Considering this example you might actually get lucky and do more damage after all. It all depends on the ability that was dodged. While a non-crit white hit, which you will never know if it was in fact a non-crit, might be easy to compensate with OP a hard hitting MS might be not so easy to compensate. I think this is one of the reasons why I never really cared too much about expertise. You will never always make up all the damage lost through an OP but there are times where it is possible to do more and it is actually possible to compensate. A rogue or DK for example is not able to do this. I think we both picked examples that benefit our argument. In the end I'd have to agree that this is not a perfect solution but after looking over each calculation I am more then ever confident that I will not go crazy about being expertise capped anymore.
As arms you can definitely reduce the loss from dodges, but this loss is not always the same and you need to consider a lot of other factors.
First you need to burn T4B procs as soon as you get a gcd (or you risk overwrites). Then you have to consider what are the side effects (an example would be getting a dodged rend that also delays T4B procs).
The least loss of DPS you can have is if you get a white dodged during a Slam-slam consecutive CD: you replace (2*Slam+1 white)/3 with (1Slam+1OP)/2.5
To even out the loss, the average damage of OP-Slam/1.5 should be 1 avg white damage.
Getting a dodged special has a very different value depending on the special itself. In general you replace a special DPS with 40% of an OP DPS and this hardly compensate for the loss, unless the special is a rend and you don't overwrite T4B with that dodge.
Completely estimating the value of expertise for arms is a very hard work because you need to examine every possible situation chance of occurrence and its relative damage loss.
Remember though, if you aren't capped on expertise, chances are that you have some other stat in it's place on your gear, whether it's str/ap/crit/arp or a mixture of those.
So while a dodged attack might be a DPS loss and an OP won't make up for it, what about the extra DPS you are gaining over the entirety of the fight? Would that and the OP then make up for your dodged attack, or perhapes more?
Even then I prefer to cap expertise and not play the RNG game considering I have enough RNGs to deal with like crit rate or trinket procs lining up etc. Even if you have a .25% chance to be dodged, the game could decide you will miss a lot more than that. On that note, you could never see a miss as well, so it can go in your favor too.
You both mentioned a few reasons why I don't even bother with expertise anymore. For one I have experienced dodges on Rend and it is just irritating. But, as Hellord mentioned it is far too difficult to compute or get a perfect understanding what you are trading off for expertise or what abilities and what kind of damage is actually lost through a dodge. On the second note as Healranktwo has already mentioned, and what I have been totally disregarding, is the fact that you will stack other stats for expertise. While OP gives us actually a possibility to deal with a dodge I think it is enough of a compensation to not have to break my head over a stat that is nice but not seemingly that important.
While OP will always remain a gamble in the regard of a dodge we at least have something.
Edit: I have been playing Ulduar from the beginning with almost no expertise or even with none and I can't recall seeing myself to far away from other warriors in my guild or for that matter other DDs with my DPS range.
Another thing you have to factor is Sudden Death procs can't happen on a dodge, neither can Sword Spec (if you happen to be).
And yes, you can factor out the total loss... it's called Rawr
I stopped using Rawr when it told me I was supposed to do 10k DPS, and that was around version 2.2.4 or 5. Rawr is far from done and you should be really carefull when you use it.
This may sound stupid, but I have looked at some Logs and they ahve massive Whirlwind damage done, is arms warrior supposed to change to Berserker stance and do whirlwind and back to Battle stance again and use Overpower?
I know Bladestorm is considered Whirlwind damage, but the damage on the logs from "Whirlwind" seems rather big, so a Bladestorm or 2 shouldn't make that big numbers.
You should not be stance-dancing to whirlwind. Without looking at these logs no-one can really answer your question. What do you consider "massive"? Bladestorm damage will vary from about 5% for a single target fight, to maybe 15% for a fight with several adds eg Freya.
I cannot link the log right now, But I'm currently stuck at 4 - 4,5k DPS at Ignis as a arms warrior, where the warrior that was doing massive whirlwind damage was at 6,1k at Ignis. Away with that it could be that his guild tank adds so you can AoE them with the boss at Ignis, but on General he did 5,9k DPS where I did 4,3k and he had some whirlwind damage infact way more than my bladestorm had done, so I thought maybe he stance danced to use Whirlwind, which would make sense since his DPS is about 1 - 2k higher than mine.
Is 1,5 - 2k DPS more doable by just improving gear or is it me that have a L2P issue?
I cannot link the log right now, But I'm currently stuck at 4 - 4,5k DPS at Ignis as a arms warrior, where the warrior that was doing massive whirlwind damage was at 6,1k at Ignis. Away with that it could be that his guild tank adds so you can AoE them with the boss at Ignis, but on General he did 5,9k DPS where I did 4,3k and he had some whirlwind damage infact way more than my bladestorm had done, so I thought maybe he stance danced to use Whirlwind, which would make sense since his DPS is about 1 - 2k higher than mine.
Is 1,5 - 2k DPS more doable by just improving gear or is it me that have a L2P issue?
It's hard to tell how or why without a log, but I severely doubt that a stance dancing arms warrior would be able to push out that much dps. It's possible that his bladestorm was breaking clouds as well as damaging Vezax which could add a little extra, but that's all I can think of.
It's hard to tell how or why without a log, but I severely doubt that a stance dancing arms warrior would be able to push out that much dps. It's possible that his bladestorm was breaking clouds as well as damaging Vezax which could add a little extra, but that's all I can think of.
I've actually seen this a lot too. I have spent a lot of time looking at WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay lately. This shows all the highest DPS by boss for warriors. If you filter down to Arms warriros only, you will notice that most of the top DPS arms warriors are fitting regular Whirlwinds into these parses. I tried a few things with it myself but it just seemed way to crazy to maintain a constant stance dance. Either way, I would be interested in other opinions on these parses too.
That link only shows Negiva gaining Berserker Stance twice. Unfortunately the link to the actual event log is broken.
If you look at this fight by Qtbankslol he never gains Berserker Stance, and looking at the actual log all Whirlwind attacks are associated with Bladestorm.
I actually do stance dance to WW on fights like Kologarn/Razorscale/Freya/Ignis etc. I try to time it between swings and when I don't feel rage will be a problem or if I know a big hit is coming soon (IE shockwave on Kologarn).
It's hard to tell how or why without a log, but I severely doubt that a stance dancing arms warrior would be able to push out that much dps. It's possible that his bladestorm was breaking clouds as well as damaging Vezax which could add a little extra, but that's all I can think of.
Clouds only take damage from direct damage, not AoE.
I cannot link the log right now, But I'm currently stuck at 4 - 4,5k DPS at Ignis as a arms warrior, where the warrior that was doing massive whirlwind damage was at 6,1k at Ignis. Away with that it could be that his guild tank adds so you can AoE them with the boss at Ignis, but on General he did 5,9k DPS where I did 4,3k and he had some whirlwind damage infact way more than my bladestorm had done, so I thought maybe he stance danced to use Whirlwind, which would make sense since his DPS is about 1 - 2k higher than mine.
Cannot explain the masses of damage but i have seen warriors who were having to interrupt General using ww before they switch back to battle, explains more ww damage?
I stopped using Rawr when it told me I was supposed to do 10k DPS, and that was around version 2.2.4 or 5. Rawr is far from done and you should be really carefull when you use it.
Rawr version 2.2.11 was released last night so that was 6-7 versions ago where the issue may have occurred. Did you post that the issue existed on their website so it could be fixed? Did you see what specific ability was causing it? Similar questions could have been asked. As it currently stands, the sheet with maxed buffs and having generated a BiS set using the optimizer does not equate to 10k DPS, though I have not tested the new T9 gear levels yet since we just added the database for them last night.
Now, speaking as the actual Arms Warrior Dev for Rawr... I have not seen an issue like that for a very long time and we have worked out the vast majority of the mechanics for Warriors (see the verbose Patch Notes regarding this). Are there still things to be done? sure. Are there any bugs? Sure, if you take certain stats to extremes. Is it more or less accurate than anything else (Landsoul, maxdps, pawn, etc) YES, resounding YES. I do recommend people fluent with Landsoul's sheet to use it as a checking base sometimes but consider that his sheet only holds a very specific set of formulas and does NOT take into account any real variance, while Rawr.DPSWarr does.
the 4 minutes are kinda faked, because you can use Indestr. before pull and then use speed potion during the fight, so its 2minutes indestr. vs 15sec speed potion.
I am sorry, i forgot about this option. But actually that doesn't change the fact that 2 minutes Indestructible Potion are still superior over the Speed Potion, which i think is a rellay sad fact game designwhise.
08/01/09, 6:22 PM
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