Musik

So what are the "stats to stack" now?
As of now I've stacked 50% ArPen (60% with battle stance), 41+% crit, 202 hit, and 19 expertise (5 from axe spec...i'm an orc). I've seen both sides of the argument about hit, whether being capped it worth stacking gems over more crit and...well, not. I check my recount, and I really don't miss much due to my using a slow 2 hander (something like 1 in every 100 attacks or so? I need to research that a bit more). My thoughts on the 60% ArPen, is that I would rather have more passive ArPen and have GT proc give a bit less dps than regem crit/STR, but I'm not sure if this "theorycrafting" is correct.
Also, I've left strength and AP out of the picture. if it comes my way, I'll take it but I've been taking mail and leather pieces for crit and ArP, and all of my gems (but for the 2 blue req ones for the meta which are 10 exp 15 stam) are crit and ArPen.
What I want to know, is if anyone has seriously tested out stacking hit / strength over crit / ArPen. Like in game, not on the spreadsheet. Right now I'm hitting 5k DPS or so and I want to know how I could improve it gearwise.
Also has anyone updated the BiS items for arms with the ToC items?


**Edits: Thoughts on my ArP, and I'll be getting the relentless skyflare over chaotic.

 

Kaistlin

What?

I just prepotted all night, and would then use a haste potion mid fight. I don't know why you're saying we can't.

 

Gorrog666

Well, maybe Blizzard reversed the change but I recall going into Naxx one day and pre-potting an indestructible on Patchwerk. In fight the game then thought I already had a potion taken, this was also confirmed by a few people from my guild so it wasn't an accident.

If it works now again the better.

EDIT. Just tested it and yes apparently it is possible to pre-pot again. My appologies.

 

Darknessss

Just a quick question,
is the new hit cap at 8% referred only the yellow hits or also to the white ones?

 

Kaistlin

As arms, it's 8% for both.
As fury, it's 8% for yellow, and something around 27% for white(you don't worry about the white cap)

 

Darknessss

I asked just because I've got too much hit so now I know that I can take off some to get to 8%.

 

dysent

How do you figure? I built a set on Landsoul's spreadsheet to be ideal for the mace... 85% arp without mace, all hit on mace needed, etc... And even in the perfect world for the mace, the 232 pvp axe came out 100dps higher without even regemming to make up the lost hit.

Can you provide some evidence that mace spec is anything but the 100-200 dps loss the spreadsheet says it is, even in ideal conditions?

 

Gorrog666

Personal experience. I started out Ulduar with Betrayer of Humanity, I switched to Ironsoul shortly after, and then to Aesir's Edge. Ironsoul was an increase in dps and Aesir's Edge a huge disappointment, this was until the ArP cap came in. For a while I tried Aesir's Edge and the ~50% ArP + Grim Toll combination but was again disappointed. I regemmed for ArP again and now I'm using Lotrafen. I'm currently at 80% ArP again and at 90% with Executioner proc.

While this might be not the perfect comparisson for DPS, we have a second MS warrior in the guild full T8.5 and with Voldrethar. This ID we were both in the raid during the Kologarn encounter, and yes I know this is a rough DPS estimate, but we ended up both at around 7.2k DPS. We both used Bladestorm etc. on cd and tried to max DPS, like I said before this is not 100% accurate but it gives a general idea, and the DPS was too close too each other for me to argue that his weapon or his equip in general is superior.

I will not argue that mace spec is superior to axe spec but I will definetly argue that the 1st goal of a MS warrior should be to get 100% ArP without procs, because in my opinion this will give the highest dps. So, yes while your at 85% ArP I do believe mace > axe especially when comming close to 100% ArP since ArP still doesn't increase in a linear fashion.

Getting to 100% ArP is actually possible now without procs from Grim Toll and without mace spec. The problem though is that there are no weapons yet that are slow and use axe spec. The factions heros drop a 2hd axe now and we might see people pick it up next ID. Voldrethar has great stats uses sword spec though and fails in my opinion and Lotrafen has decent stats but has a weapon speed of only 3.4.

While spreadsheets are nice I rather look at recount and WWS or WMO. You have to look at the things that you have changed look at your misses and crits and make decision on what works best. Bosses can be very different and little changes can have a huge difference. Going into an instance with a different spec or gear setup and analyzing your personal DPS is the way to go and that's what I have been doing. I don't need a spreadsheet to tell me how to play my class, I should know that by myself and if I don't I have to play more.

 

Musik

Is there any point where I should stop gemming crit? I have 41% atm, and 60% Arpen. Should I switch something out and if so what?

 

Furrymaker

A better question would be is there a point you should start gemming crit. Hit and exp are better than crit until capped. Str and even AP will always be better than crit. Arp is usually better than crit even after soft cap. So there ya go.

@ Gorrog
Spread sheets don't tell you how to play, but they can show you mathematically which weapon spec will be most favorable for a specific gear set up though. And what the spread sheet shows is that in ALL circumstances poleaxe spec is far superior to the others. Of course you were unhappy with Aesir's because sword spec is terrible compared to the other two specs. Yes you will perform differently on different encounters but weapon specs will not.

 

Anduryondon

Actually thats not true, crit is my second best stat, with 1 crit~ 0,92 strength.

 

earle117

Crit is still worth less than Str, I don't get what you're trying to say there.

Even if Crit was .999999 SEP, Str would still be better to gem, so Crit gems still aren't what you should be gemming.If your SEP for Crit is 0/92, Str is worth 8% more to you.

 

Anduryondon

My comment was on the statement that even ap/arp is better than crit, which is not always true.

 

Alexxcri

Is it possible the crit can go over the strength SEP value? I mean I was playing with landsoul's spreadsheet and had some gear with about 3500-3700 ap and ~35-37% crit (can't remember the values at the moment) and the SEP was showing crit at about 1.02value. It's not a huge difference but still it's gotten over strength, anyone know and answer why this can happen?

 

earle117

Not sure. As far as I know, the only way that Crit can become worth so much if it's neglected, such as having large amounts other stats, and a low amount of Crit. ~3600 ap and ~36% Crit seems weird for having Crit be a higher SEP value than Str.

 

coppelius

So what is considered "neglected"? I have been stacking Str and ArP on gear, and ArP on gem, and, with a 24% crit, I really feel that I've "negleted" it...

 

earle117

Well, using Mace spec with a TSD isn't helping your low crit. Just getting an axe will push it up to ~29%.

 

coppelius

I agree, but for the moment, I am unable to get an axe (no raiding time...). The mace is also good for me as it gives me +5 expertise from dwarf racial, which allows me to free 3 gems socket.

Still, what would be a crit % to aim for?

 

earle117

There is no specific amount of Crit to aim for. It's just a good stat, but not good enough to gem for.

And just so you know, there are 2 epic axes that drop from Heroics, and both would be way better than TSD. There's CSCC, the axe from H HoL that used to be the best pre-raid weapon, and now Edge of Ruin from H ToC, which is better than even a lot of weapons from Naxx (ilvl 219).

 

Kballa

I understand how ArP works, the more you have the greater dps increase you will see, but what i'm wondering is once you reach the point of 50-60% passive ArP and have grimm toll or runestone equipped, would it be better to start gemming strength while still keeping the same range of passive ArP to reach cap with the trinket proc. I tried this (look at my armory) and at least I saw a nice increase in dps, although during the test phase I had also gotten several upgrades in gear, so I don't know how much i should put the new gems into account, but i have about 51% passive ArP including battle stance, 3900 ap, and 32 crit, which i believe are nice stats for an arms warrior

 

earle117

Yeah, once you're past ArP soft cap (which changes slightly based on whether you have MR or GT), it's better to gem Str.

 

Musik

Is there a point where the SEP for crit ARP and STR are all equal or close? I have 63% Arp (which I'm probly going to switch for STR) 26% crit and 3400+ AP. To clarify my question, if I had about 50% Arp 3900 AP and 36-37 % crit, would the next gems all be about equal? Also, my computer won't run the spreadsheet because I don't have excel which is why I'm asking and not testing...

 

suicuique

Sure, because STR adds an absolute ammount to your AP pool, while crit increases your total damage in a relative way.
Once your AP pool reaches absurd levels, crit should certainly be worth more.
I'm talking academical examples here ... not sure if these AP levels are attainable yet. If your crit rating is extremely low it could be possible even now.

 

dysent

Quoted for emphasis. Just want to help dispel the notion that mace spec is ever better than axe. Axe > Mace > Sword, for all gear setups, to the degree that badly itemized axes (like ones with resil or haste) beat well itemized maces.

This is not a function of fight mechanics or playskill... It just plain does more damage per avg hit.

If you disagree with well established theorycraft, its important to provide a mathematical basis or closed-environment testing (like on a dummy). Raid parses are unreliable as a math proof of concept.

 

Facemasher

From reading this thread I understand that getting to the ArP cap is the best thing you can do for your dps. What is the cap exactly? Is it 100%? Or is it 90% (Battle Stance)? Or is it less because of armor debuffs (sunder, FF)?

Im basically looking for the exact number (% or rating) that I need to get the ArP cap. I would like this number for having a GT/MJ as well as reaching the cap w/o that proc.

Im sorry if this information is already posted some where. I have looked but cant seem to find a lot of info on the 3.2 cap. I also think it would be helpful if the first post in the arms thread summarized all the updated stuff in the thread. A ton of work, but it would be really nice.

Thanks!