Now that t9+ gear is available, I was wondering if equipping the 2set for t9 is greater than the 4 set bonus of 8.5, especially if you have already reached the armor pen soft cap. I realize that the extra 6% passive penetration rating is still a good dps boost but if it is worth it. Finally, the 4set for t9 isn't as great as the one for 8.5, so in the near future when TOC 25 man becomes completely available, are arms warriors looking to just get the 2 set t9 then itemize with different individual pieces of gear? In my opinion that would be better, its frustrating trying to keep a 4set, and the gear thats out in this new instance is REALLY nice
I was wondering how does the warrior rotation works now with the change to execute. I was thinking of spamming execute while keeping rend up and use overpower every time tfb procs. Am I wrong?
Another question, i have noticed that Sudden death procs can happen one after another, for example SD-GC/white hit-SD procs again.
I don't know which does more damage per rage but would SD > MS in priority that way? if u get lucky and ahve the rage u can Execute in a row and still have op when you run out of rage.
Third question, i don't understand why stacking ArP after the cap with MR gives less dps than stacking str after that cap i dont know if someone can explain it to me? I know that if Mr procs the extra ArP goes to waste but MR and GT have a 20% up time and during that other 80% of the time wouldn't it be more dps to have more ArP?
Last question, I use Landsoul's Spreadsheet for deciding which gear to use, i was just wondering, the Spreadsheet says i should be pulling 6k dps fully buffed but i cant seem to get past 5200 when I'm doing extremely good, is that ok or im doing something else wrong?
Now that t9+ gear is available, I was wondering if equipping the 2set for t9 is greater than the 4 set bonus of 8.5, especially if you have already reached the armor pen soft cap. I realize that the extra 6% passive penetration rating is still a good dps boost but if it is worth it. Finally, the 4set for t9 isn't as great as the one for 8.5, so in the near future when TOC 25 man becomes completely available, are arms warriors looking to just get the 2 set t9 then itemize with different individual pieces of gear? In my opinion that would be better, its frustrating trying to keep a 4set, and the gear thats out in this new instance is REALLY nice
If I insert ~90 ARP Rating in the Spreadsheet its nearly a 100 dps boost, so it is not as good as 4 t8, but its close to it. If you take the better stats in account, I think it's ok to lose 4 t8 for the 2 t9 bonus.
~90 arp rating when you're 90 rating from the cap or? If i get a t9 piece like the shoulders and another set piece for the 2 bonus I can start gemming for full arp and reach the arp cap without MR meaning i can start using another trinket instead.
Quoted for emphasis. Just want to help dispel the notion that mace spec is ever better than axe. Axe > Mace > Sword, for all gear setups, to the degree that badly itemized axes (like ones with resil or haste) beat well itemized maces.
This is not a function of fight mechanics or playskill... It just plain does more damage per avg hit.
If you disagree with well established theorycraft, its important to provide a mathematical basis or closed-environment testing (like on a dummy). Raid parses are unreliable as a math proof of concept.
While I agree with you on the test I really have to disagree on the fact that axe is supposed to be superior to mace. Axe spec is very crit dependent and what I found out while I was running some small test is that if you have ihgh crit axe is actually going to be superior due to its mechanic. For example, if you were running around with 5% or 10% crit mace spec would beat axe spec without a doubt. Consider a char with 100% crit, all the attacks are affected by 5% more damage, in this case mace spec would be most likely inferior. So the question becomes howmuch crit do you need so that your crit damage increased by 5% outweights the 15% ArP that apply to all your attacks. Since I have not gone at all into crit I wouldn't be surprised why that is the reason why mace performs better with my char.
Low crit = Mace spec
High crit = Axe spec
I did a small test on a boss dummy, I had rage problems and the sample is too small so I might not post it, and what I have noticed is that I hit harder with mace spec (74.37% ArP + 10% Stance + 15% Spec, Ironsoul) than axe spec (83.56% ArP, Stormedge) but axe spec through more crits provides more deep wounds damage and through the 5% increased damage balances out the missing ArP. White damage was around 7% higher on mace and on crits 2% higher.
I have to do more testing but I wouldn't just want to claim axe is always better than mace spec. I am certain as equip improves axe becomes more powerfull but as long as you have little crit and your equip is not bis and high end I would recommend going for mace spec. I will try to get more data to confirm this.
While I agree with you on the test I really have to disagree on the fact that axe is supposed to be superior to mace. Axe spec is very crit dependent and what I found out while I was running some small test is that if you have ihgh crit axe is actually going to be superior due to its mechanic. For example, if you were running around with 5% or 10% crit mace spec would beat axe spec without a doubt. Consider a char with 100% crit, all the attacks are affected by 5% more damage, in this case mace spec would be most likely inferior. So the question becomes howmuch crit do you need so that your crit damage increased by 5% outweights the 15% ArP that apply to all your attacks. Since I have not gone at all into crit I wouldn't be surprised why that is the reason why mace performs better with my char.
Low crit = Mace spec
High crit = Axe spec
I did a small test on a boss dummy, I had rage problems and the sample is too small so I might not post it, and what I have noticed is that I hit harder with mace spec (74.37% ArP + 10% Stance + 15% Spec, Ironsoul) than axe spec (83.56% ArP, Stormedge) but axe spec through more crits provides more deep wounds damage and through the 5% increased damage balances out the missing ArP. White damage was around 7% higher on mace and on crits 2% higher.
I have to do more testing but I wouldn't just want to claim axe is always better than mace spec. I am certain as equip improves axe becomes more powerfull but as long as you have little crit and your equip is not bis and high end I would recommend going for mace spec. I will try to get more data to confirm this.
Huh?
A crit does not provide 5% more damage. A crit provides 100% more damage (except for on TClap, which is treated as a spell - 50% additional on crit), plus an additional 3% for the meta bonus, plus the 5% for the Axe spec. Plus that Deep Wounds thing.
You can't realistically get all of your attacks to be crits - there is a crit cap.
At a realistically low crit rating, you need more crit. You don't need more ArP, though it certainly doesn't hurt.
Mace spec does not and will not outweigh Axe, even for a Human or Dwarf who would get the Exp racial with Maces.
Even if that mace spec 15% is the last 15% you need to hit the 100% ArP effectiveness cap, Axe would still beat it out.
Don't take my word for it, though. Go to the sheet and test it. Go to Rawr and test it. Go to a simulator and test it.
Rawr says it. Landsoul's spreadsheet says it. DPSSim says it. SimCraft says it. The predictions say it, and the testing says it. Nobody is trying to sway the data here for their own purposes - it is what it is.
(By the way, testing without raid buffs and debuffs to determine raid effectiveness is generally a bad idea, especially as a Warrior.)
Last edited by BWarner : 08/20/09 at 8:43 AM.
Reason: Toning down slightly.
~90 arp rating when you're 90 rating from the cap or? If i get a t9 piece like the shoulders and another set piece for the 2 bonus I can start gemming for full arp and reach the arp cap without MR meaning i can start using another trinket instead.
Well, since MR is such a good trinket i think its still better to keep it and gem str, but i think we can say more about this when the new Spreadsheet is out.
...
A crit does not provide 5% more damage. A crit provides 100% more damage
...
You can't realistically GET all of your attacks to be crits - there is a crit cap.
Gorrog is referring to Poleaxe Spec increasing crit damage with axes and polearms by 5%. Also, crit cap and glancing blows do not directly affect special attacks (I think the 4.8% crit depression does though).
Last edited by Vitalstatistix : 08/19/09 at 5:13 PM.
Gorrog is referring to Poleaxe Spec increasing crit damage with axes and polearms by 5%. Also, crit cap and glancing blows do not directly affect special attacks (I think the 4.8% crit depression does though).
Yes exactly, I was referrering to the spec. You need to reread my post BWarner, I am not sure if I wasn't clear enough or if you just glanced at it. It doesn't matter if you use Rawr, a spreadsheet or some sim if you have a high crit chance in those tools they will always tell you that axe spec will be superior, because that's what it is.
Gorrog is referring to Poleaxe Spec increasing crit damage with axes and polearms by 5%. Also, crit cap and glancing blows do not directly affect special attacks (I think the 4.8% crit depression does though).
The 4.8 crit depression does affect yellows (specials), as far as I understand. And you are correct about the crit cap not affecting special attacks, but then, white damage isn't a meaningless part of our damage. Regardless, I do understand the point that was being made with that example.
I did read your post fully, Gorogg. You seem to only be considering the additional 5% damage on crit, though, and not the 5% chance to crit that also comes with Axe spec.
Try using those tools at those low crit percentages you're talking about (5%? 10%? Really, now? That's just a little facetious), and see what happens. Or, you said that your character is an example of a case where Mace spec mathematically outperforms Axe spec. Try plugging in your character, and see what happens.
Now I have to actually thank you for bringing up a great idea. I did plug in my char into Rawr and axe spec did outperform, but as I was removing gear and crit was going down mace and axe spec were getting closer together until they became almost the same, I'm not sure how it would look if the weapons were 100% identical. So axe spec does not outperform mace all the time.
In most modeling programs or simulators, you can manipulate the item stats, or even create new weapons out of thin air. Try either creating or renaming/re-allocating stats on 3 similar weapons, or creating 3 new weapons entirely, to isolate the weapon spec contribution. However you have to do it, make the three weapons identical, with the sole exception being the type of weapon specialization that would apply to each.
For EXTREME fringe cases (less crit than Blues+Cruelty would provide, or significantly more crit than an extrapolated, theoretical T10), be aware that you are outside the bounds of realistic discussion in terms of applicability. While it might be a cool mental exercise, be sure that it applies in a pragmatic sense.
I recently got 3 item upgrades for my Arms set and checked my set on Rawr only to find out I was short 150 hit rating from being capped. Rawr was still stating that i would get 300 more dps with the upgrades. I was wondering if I should gem for the hit rating or just leave it as is.
Gem for it, especially with that much hit you still need.
I re-post here my question from a week ago, does it make sense <20% to use bladestorm? Basically its 4 Executes vs 6 Whirlwind hits.
Gem for it, especially with that much hit you still need.
I re-post here my question from a week ago, does it make sense <20% to use bladestorm? Basically its 4 Executes vs 6 Whirlwind hits.
It's actually 7 hits when you bladestorm i'm pretty sure.
I recently got 3 item upgrades for my Arms set and checked my set on Rawr only to find out I was short 150 hit rating from being capped. Rawr was still stating that i would get 300 more dps with the upgrades. I was wondering if I should gem for the hit rating or just leave it as is.
As a quick note, make sure that you try setting certain restrictions on the Optimizer, if they're applicable. For instance, as an Arms Warrior, you would want to set "% Chance to be Missed (Yellow) ≤ 0".
Also, ensure that you are actually marking any relevant gems as available to the Optimizer.
I don't want to divert this into a Rawr thread, but I would like to point out some helpful tips when using the program, especially in this case.
I've been messing around with Rawr, and I'm not sure it's calculting things properly. I checked all the proper gems and gear in the optimizer, but it seems to think ArP is more important than anything. Every single gem is +20 or +34 ArP even though I'm not hit or exp capped. The 'dps' numbers it's getting are highest, but I'm not capped and only have something like 20% crit! Is this normal?
If you read the rest of this thread you would find that every simulation tool you can get will tell you that getting as much ArP as possible (whether it be through gear and gems or through a trinket proc) is by far the best way to go. Once you get about 400 passive armor penetration rating the SEP value becomes more then the value for STR making ArP the best stat to gem for even if you are, like you said, not capped for hit/exp.
Just read even a few pages earlier and you will find all the information you need without having to ask.
Hey guys, I just had a question regarding ArP stacking vs Strength Stacking. I know that it's more beneficial to stack ArP then Strength once you're at the soft cap. I have M. Runestone so that's something like 440 ArP. I just wanted to know the reasoning behind this since my thought train would be that since the Runestone has roughly a 20% uptime, the ArP Stacking would be more beneficial then Strength for the 80% downtime of the Runestone. Although the ArP is going to waste from the Runestone proc; I would like to know why it's still more beneficial to stack strength and the solid reasoning behind this. Thanks.
Edit: I also have 1 piece of T9.25 and was wondering if anyone knew exactly how much DPS the T8.5 4 Piece Bonus gave so I can perhaps replace a few pieces of T8.5 with ToC stuff.
I would like to know why it's still more beneficial to stack strength and the solid reasoning behind this.
The value of ArPen with GT or Mjolnir drops drastically after the soft cap, because the ArPen you got past the soft cap is a 100% waste during the proc of the trinket. It's been a while since I did the calculations on it, but I believe you'd need near or over 90% passive ArPen, just to make up for that waste of ArPen during the proc.
This question is probably only answered through the spreadsheets, but I wanted to see if anyone had insight on this issue. It has been explained in great detail how it does not benefit to go above the 50.32% soft cap IF you have access to GT/MR. Its obvious that having 100% chance to waste the item budget of a proc is a bad idea.
What has not been explained (or I have missed due to my own negligence) is the breaking point at which passive ArP surpasses the need to use either of these trinkets. Given the limited uptime of these trinkets and the higher weight of ArP compared to STR at easily acquired levels of ArP, it stands to reason that the threshhold for making the transition to passve ArP with other trinket choices is not a massive leap from the 50.32% softcap that this thread is so focused on(if any has the actual math for the proposed 90% above).
My guess is that the breaking point is peronal in nature and depends on how much your gear choices sack overall item budget for ArP (ilvl 200/219 ToC ArP v. ilvl 226+ non-ArP items). Having said that, any insight at all is appreciated.
i have a question about the dps/outfitter program Rawr and about some of my stats, i recelntly remgemd all my gear with ArP and in wow it says i have 51.xx% with gear alone so its 61% with battle stance but in rawr it says i have 71% so i cant see where the other 10% is comeing from
Maybe Rawr is time averaging the added ArP from your Grim Toll trinket? Grim toll gives you 612 ArP when active (and is active roughly 10 seconds per minute), time averaging this you get 612/6 = 102 passive ArP. 102 passive ArP is 8.28% armor reduction, almost matches the difference you're seeing. Maybe better if you ask your question in the Rawr thread though.
08/18/09, 4:04 PM
Similar Threads
