In-Depth Arms DPS Discussion - Page 66

Gorrog666 · 09/09/09, 4:37 PM

Can someone provide some DPS data with a "Hammer of Crushing Whipers" equivalent weapon, preferably on Vezax HM. I am trying to figure out if mace spec is that bad, I just don't have any axe and because of mace spec I can gem a lot of STR and remain ArP capped.

Here's some of my data on WMO WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

6152 dps on Vezax HM, mace spec.

Healranktwo · 09/09/09, 6:40 PM

@Gorrog

mace spec is definitely not bad, it's just axe spec is slightly better

It probably doesn't help either that in all tiers of content in WotlK so far, axes and polearms have been the best weapons too.

Originally Posted by Diali

Hello, I've been reading different sources and I can't decide, for PVE (and also PVP if it is not completely different to boost our dps) purposes, the answer to this question :
What characteristic are we Arms warriors going to stack in 3.2.2 ?
-Full Armor Penetration up to the cap of 100 % ?
-Full Strength because Arp is not efficient enough any longer ?
-Back to the solution of using an Arp proc trinket + a certain value of passive Arp on gear ? (And what value of Arp then, in percentage ? With more points of Arp needed for each 1%, the trinkets won't give as much percentage of Arp than in pre 3.2.2)
I also read some interesting maths about the expertise cap above. The maths are interesting, but nobody seems to put a clear end to the discussion by saying in what circumstances reaching the expertise cap would be a very high priority and boost our dps more than the rest.

EDIT: Misread your post, ArP will still be extremely good to stack in 3.2.2, seeing as how you have 2pc t9 too.

Jothay · 09/09/09, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Diali

Hello, I've been reading different sources and I can't decide, for PVE (and also PVP if it is not completely different to boost our dps) purposes, the answer to this question :
What characteristic are we Arms warriors going to stack in 3.2.2 ?
-Full Armor Penetration up to the cap of 100 % ?
-Full Strength because Arp is not efficient enough any longer ?
-Back to the solution of using an Arp proc trinket + a certain value of passive Arp on gear ? (And what value of Arp then, in percentage ? With more points of Arp needed for each 1%, the trinkets won't give as much percentage of Arp than in pre 3.2.2)
I also read some interesting maths about the expertise cap above. The maths are interesting, but nobody seems to put a clear end to the discussion by saying in what circumstances reaching the expertise cap would be a very high priority and boost our dps more than the rest.

You will still stack ArP, you just have to reach a higher point before starting to stack it.

If you have a trinket with ArP proc, stack to the 100% - Value from proc, same as before, just a different number.

Stack Expertise until you have 6.5% Dodge Reduction (you can partially fill this requirement with Weapon Mastery). You can leave yourself <8 rating shy and still be fine as being 5 rating away and putting 8 STR in it's place will yield higher dps since 3 rating would be much lower in value.

Jothay · 09/09/09, 7:21 PM

@Garrog:

Spreadsheets and Rawr can show your current gear vs what it would be with that mace and mace spec. Mace spec isn't in any way "bad", Sword Spec is. Axe Spec is just better because 5% crit and 5% bonus crit damage outweighs the 10% passive ArP that Mace Spec does. That said, if you have a 212 dps Axe and you get a 232 dps Mace, the new mace will beat your Axe but side-by-side 232 to 232 Axe will win out.

Annihilus · 09/10/09, 3:01 AM

Originally Posted by Teii

On sword spec, I just felt like dropping a few fast numbers out of my head. Nothing really new is added in this post, just obvious facts with simple numbers.

I will try and compare with very simplistic assumptions what would be the axe and what would be the white sword damage, in average, during an interval of 6 seconds. Do not get carried by the numbers, actually you'd be wise to simply jump into the conclusions.

Assuming that raid buffed a warrior swing speed is around 2.6, we can assume an average of 6 / 2.6= 2.3 hits per 6 seconds. For the sake of numbers, assume that the average weapon damage is 1000, and base crit chance is 30% (35% with axe).

Axe

Total damage over 6 seconds =

Average non-crit damage +

+ (chance to crit) * (average added crit damage) =

[ (2.3 * 1000) ]+ [ (0.35) * (2.3 * 1050) ] ~= 3150 damage

Sword (old 5%)

Total damage over 6 seconds =

Average non-crit damage +

(chance to crit) * (average crit added damage) +

+ (chance to get at least 1 sword proc out of 2.3 trials) * ( 1 swing damage + 1 swing crit added damage) =

= [ (2.3 * 1000) ] + [ (0.3) * (2.3 * 1000) ] + [ (1 - (0.95^2.3) ) * ( (0.7) * (1000) + (0.3) * (2000) ) ] ~= 3135 damage

Sword (new 10%) (same formula, different numbers)

Total damage over 6 seconds =

Average non-crit damage +

(chance to crit) * (average crit added damage) +

+ (chance to get at least 1 sword proc out of 2.3 trials) * ( 1 swing damage + 1 swing crit added damage) =

= (2.3 * 1000) + (0.3) * (2.3 * 1000) + (1 - (0.90^2.3) ) * ( (0.7) * (1000) + (0.3) * (2000) ) ~= 3270 damage

Provided that the formulas are correct, raid buffed the my conclusion is the expected one: Axe spec whites outperform sligltly the current Sword spec (5% chance) whites. Considering yellow damage is always going to be higher for Axes, there is no dispute: Axes are superior in <3.2. But the news are that Axe underperforms the new 3.2.2 buffed Sword spec (10% chance) for white damage, by roughly (3270- 3150) / 3150~= 4%. Now Axes are not the clear winner.

Remember, these are the values only for the white damage. We gain 4% white, but of course, no yellow attacks or Deep Wound ticks are added to the formula. The next question we should answer is: does the 4% added white damage compensates for the loss in yellow damage?

Thanks for your time,
Tei.

Edit: Thanks for the feedback Gruntle, Aw4, much appreciated. I corrected the errors: 1.- Impale does not affect white hits, so the added crit damage is not 1200, but 1050 and 1000 respectively for axes and swords. 2.- The final percentage is not 12% but 4%.

Is it possible to model the same thing in a PvP situation with Mace spec and Arp Soft Cap versus Sword Spec and STR gemming and compared to just a typical Furious plate armor opponent? I have not seen anything from a PvP perspective that makes such a comparison and yet it seems to be an important question to answer with the patch looming.

wolfenstein · 09/10/09, 4:07 AM

Hello guys

I'm wondering if I'm in the right spot to ask this silly question.

I've been running the cookie cutter Arms/fury spec to get imp execute. Now, I've come across a few imp Heroic strike and incite builds that i have been trying out and have NOT worked out for me. I am hit and expertise capped, with around 45% Armp. What do I need to do to make this work? Or, should I just go back to the usual spec?

Thanks in advance.

P.S- In general I've heard that I need to get an Armp proc trinket. Sad fact is NO ONE on my server runs naxx 25 anymore and only one guild has gotten Mjolnir. Should I keep stacking armp? or is there a stopping point? Thanks.

Diali · 09/10/09, 7:54 AM

O.K., thank you for your answers about armor penetration and expertise.

To be completely sure of what you tell me, does this mean that the SEP value of armor penetration will be more interesting than the SEP value of strength ?

Because if strength comes back ahead of Arp in terms of SEP value (I.E. efficiency for dps purposes) every gem slot will be gemmed with strength instead of Arp.

Sorry for insisting on this but I think it's important, as I do not want to spend all my gold in gems that will soon be obsolete.

Anduryondon · 09/10/09, 9:22 AM

It means that you gem ARP as long as you are not overcapped, yes.

Annihilus · 09/10/09, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

It means that you gem ARP as long as you are not overcapped, yes.

What about if you can't get to the cap but your're within like 100 rating, is it still worth it or re-gem STR at that point? It seems like it's eitehr all or nothing.

Anduryondon · 09/11/09, 5:03 AM

Why should it be all or nothing? The SEP value of Arp increases, the more Arp you stack. The only reason Arms was using Str gems was that our best trinket gave us 50% Arp for a large amount of fight time. But now with ToC gear, we can easily reach 100% Arp without relying on trinkets, thats the reason we gem Arp as long as we don't reach the cap.
So yes, even if you can't reach the cap its better to stack it, as long as you don't use things like Grim Toll or Mjollnir.

Ran Newman · 09/11/09, 6:17 AM

adding to that, you don't even need to be able to reach passive cap in order for other trinkets to be better.
if you use a spreadsheet its preaty easy to see when ArP-proc trinket is bad for you - if ArP is worth more then str for you even after reaching the soft cap, the best thing to do is to get another trinket and gem for ArP.

Thymoleon · 09/11/09, 5:06 PM

I wanted to point out that the math about the new sword spec Teii posted a few pages ago and someone massquoted on this page is flawed. Just to make sure that no one draw wrong conclusions out of it.
The chance to get the extra swing is misscalculated, because it isn't 1-(0.9^2.3)=21.5% but 2.3/(6/2.6+9)=20.3% (refer to my previous post for clarifications).
It also doesn't take into account neither yellow damages nor DW procs. He also misscalculated the Poleaxe spec damage, not doubling the 0.05 crit damage increase.
Therefore the 4% white damage increase of Sword vs. Polaxe actually is (3270-3185)/3185=2.67%.

Annihilus · 09/11/09, 10:07 PM

RE Anduryondon: Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking at this from more of a PvP / Arena viewpoint, so I can't gear myself out in all PvE gear even if I did have access to it. With the amount of damage that I've encountered so far this season I can't really see going any lower than 800 resilience. I could get enough Conquer's badges for one of the helm's but I'm not sure that I want to lose my 4-piece bonus. With that being said, there is no way I can ArP cap without a Mace specialization and GT, which is why I'm interested in seeing some numbers about Sword Spec and STR itemization vs. ArP itemization. Just to check for my understanding, are you saying that even if I can't cap ArP as Sword Spec I should still itemize as much as I can but then not use GT?

Last season it was soft cap ArP plus GT and now the answer is to just gem as much as you can and use an AP or STR trinket?

RE Thymoleon:I'm assuming that your model is based on a raid boss environment or is that all-inclusive situations? With the amount of CC that teams like RMP and any other caster team present, time on target is definitely not 100% or even 90%, so that six-second time CD on Sword Spec may not be much of a factor. Thoughts?

Anduryondon · 09/12/09, 6:52 AM

Well, of course PvP is really something different, so there i would use Grim Toll/Mjollnir and then try to reach 100% Arp with the proc, so that you have some burst in your attacks.
The reason why you didnt gem Arp with Grim Toll/Mjollnir was in PvE because they were the best trinkets available and you could not reach the cap without them. Now with ToC Gear available there are better trinkets and in addition to that you can reach 100% ArP without trinkets.

Josefar · 09/13/09, 10:43 PM

Is there any magic armor penetration value where Executioneer outvalues Berserking?

Currently I'm sitting at 60% from gear and 16% from battle stance. Also got a blue trinket from hc Gundrak^^ with 200 sometihng armor penetration on it's use effect.

I can't use Landsouls spreadsheet or else I would have tried getting my answer there. Thanks in advance.

dimsumknight · 09/13/09, 11:52 PM

Anyone know if 2/2 in weapon mastery will yield higher dps over a 3/3 in precision?

Brakthir · 09/14/09, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by dimsumknight

Anyone know if 2/2 in weapon mastery will yield higher dps over a 3/3 in precision?

Why would you ever go that deep into fury?

danyson · 09/14/09, 4:29 AM

Is it possible to alculate the SEP values on targets with resiliance? Because i dont think that AXE Spec is that good in PvP because resiliance should reduce its advantages.

Gorrog666 · 09/14/09, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by danyson

Is it possible to alculate the SEP values on targets with resiliance? Because i dont think that AXE Spec is that good in PvP because resiliance should reduce its advantages.

PVP works a little different than PVE, Sword-spec and the right proc can have a devestating effect on your enemy with a little luck. Sword should net you more burst damage.

danyson · 09/14/09, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gorrog666

PVP works a little different than PVE, Sword-spec and the right proc can have a devestating effect on your enemy with a little luck. Sword should net you more burst damage.

Thats right, but with the 6 Sec internal CD its not as good as it was an vanilla. furthermore, whitehits normally dont hit that hard. It would be interesting to get SEP Values on PVP Targets with 900 RES and armor between 4500- 14000, sothat you can see whats better STR vs ARP and AXE vs MACE.

Annihilus · 09/14/09, 2:36 PM

It seems like the majority of warriors went axe last season and the word is that axe is still the way to go. The problem here is that 3.2.2 is going to change things a bit. With Relentless gear targets will have 1000 resilience in some situations, not to mention more armor. That 5% crit damage seems less valuable. Mace spec is an east way to soft cap on ArP, and Sword spec may have that extra burst. What is interesting about Sword Spec is that I believe it can proc off Bladestorm and Sweeping Strikes which just adds to the pressure. The downside to axe and sword spec is that it'll require a lot of pve gear therby reducing resilience and makin you extremely vulnerable. Even at 900 resilience I find myself taking a beating at times, I couldn't imagine 700 resilience or less. Unfortunately nobody has really put the math to the three specs to get some estimated results.

danyson · 09/15/09, 5:12 AM

@Annihilus Thats exactly what i thought. The more Res your target has, the better macespec gets compared to axe because if you dont crit on the target you dont get the extra critdmgbonus from axespec. To Crit on the Target you need PvE gear since it has higher Critvalue on it (Hardmode gear has higher ilvl..). 2on2 seems to be dead an imho thats the only bracket where you can play with something like 600 res. In 3 vs 3 warriors are such a viable target that you need pvp gear to dont die while your healer is silenced.

radioactivesqrl · 09/15/09, 2:56 PM

From the 3.2.2 patch notes, it seems Blizz is attempting to fix Sword Spec by increasing the proc rate. From prior posts it seems like a 10% proc rate/6sec is still lack luster. Has anyone crunched the numbers on what the proc rate would have to be to make Swords viable?

Grimwhore · 09/16/09, 6:32 AM

With the incoming buff on Sword Specc in 3.2.2 i was wondering if its worth for me to change to Sword insted of Axe?
Im purely interested in PVE, at the moment im using Betrayer but i also have Stormrune Edge.
The dps on Stormrune is slightly higher but at the same time Axe spec makes Betrayer better still, tho with Stormrune im Apr capped..

Rerolled warrior a month ago after been paying huntard so im still kinda green on this area =)

Gurlock · 09/16/09, 3:27 PM

I'm unable to use Landsoul's current spreadsheet (Excel 2003 ftl) and am at a point with some serious gear dilemmas. At what point does passing the soft cap for ArP become a major problem when using [Grim Toll]? The only alternative I have really is *shudder* [Mirror of Truth].

Also, judging from the talk I've seen it seems you may be able to get a dps gain by ignoring some expertise and not achieving the cap. Has anyone found this to be true?